Towing a Historic Butty

[Rob-M]

52 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

I've just spent the week moving various dumb boats and unpowered craft using tugs, pushing and pulling if you like. Most folk at locks are very accommodating once you explain the amount of faffing involved if you have to single out. They very often help you through. 

But I did say MOST folk.

When I'm moving the pair of working boats I'll often try and keep the butty attached and run the towing line over the lock gates or at least leave the motor against the gates whilst bringing the butty through the lock.  If someone isn't happy with us bringing both boats through then IL just pull the butty back out of the way and hover with the motor. Once they have entered the lock, reverse the motor back to the gates.  Not a major inconvenience.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Concentrate on where the back end of the butty is and let the motor take care of the bows.  Steering the wrong way at a corner helps to push the motor round, done well you can often get round a tight bend without easing off as the butty steerer will help push the motor round.

 

I vaguely remember seeing a youtube vid of a motor and butty going round Sutton Stop just as you describe. 

 

 

[Richard Carter]

4 hours ago, Morris said:

Would it be a silly idea to try to tow a 70' butty with a modern 40' narrowboat? 

 

I love the idea of owning a historic butty. It's probably a pipe dream really, but would it be feasible? Would a 27 horsepower digger engine have the necessary grunt? Would I be laughed off the canal? 

 

We spent a few years towing a Small Woolwich butty with a 35ft Springer - with a 3cyl. Vetus Mitsubishi engine (just under 1000cc, from memory). Echo what has been said above about towing dollies and hardware for breasting up, I'd say they are essential. And yes, if you are a bit (or a lot) underpowered you need to go steady and not be too ambitious, be ready to give in sooner in strong winds, etc.

 

In the end the biggest problem was for me not the engine size and power, but the relative weight of the two boats, the tail really does wag the dog with a lightweight motor - I was glad I'd had experience working a camping pair, often with inexperienced hirers, sometimes with nobody steering the butty, that ups your game with the motor, it taught me a lot.

 

BTW, the technique with cross straps was developed specifically for the case of an empty butty. I have no idea why the straps don't pull upwards off the dollies, but they absolutely don't. Having them as short as you can allows the motor steerer more control over the butty, but needs nifty work and good timing when picking up the butty from being breasted up - longer straps are more tolerant of lazy steering or adverse conditions of any sort.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When I'm moving the pair of working boats I'll often try and keep the butty attached and run the towing line over the lock gates or at least leave the motor against the gates whilst bringing the butty through the lock.  If someone isn't happy with us bringing both boats through then IL just pull the butty back out of the way and hover with the motor. Once they have entered the lock, reverse the motor back to the gates.  Not a major inconvenience.

yhats kind of how I thought it worked,

 

cant you pull the butty up the locks using the motor boat in the pound above?

Edited August 11, 2023 by Goliath

[Rob-M]

1 minute ago, Goliath said:

yhats kind of how O thought it worked,

 

cant you pull the butty up the locks using the motor boat in the pound above?

Yes, long lining is the technique where you keep the boats attached and aim to have the motor rising in one lock and the butty rising in the other lock.  When I did that up Aston and Farmer's Bridge I had around 400' of towing line piled up on the counter, plenty of opportunity to get your own line round your blades.

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Great stuff

but that has to be a right juggle then,?

 

or is it simpler than it sounds,

with pounds of different lengths,

 

how do you deal with either too much or too little rope?

 

which boat has the slack?

I guess the butty?

Edited August 11, 2023 by Goliath

[Rob-M]

Keep the slack on the motor, as you move the motor forward you can let more line out as required.  Any spare gets bundled in the cabin.  Some butties had a T stud on the cabin slide so the butty steerer could manage the slack but there is a risk of getting a child caught in the line as they were often also sat on the slide.  I know of one ex working boatman who has part of a finger missing as it get caught in the line as the motor pulled the line tight.

[roland elsdon]

It’s very not simple. I tried it a couple of times. Rope length has to be variable. Knitting everywhere. We used to tow on 70 ft  or 140 ft ,  a. 70 ft line is a handful, like where do you coil it as the butty comes up to the fenders.

 

As for buttying up locks we had a 10 hp outboard that we had on a quick mounted bracket. Going up variable length  flights of single locks it was quicker to slap it on the butty than bow haul. Also stopped the crap from the moderns about wasting water etc, not working turns etc.

Nowadays I would get a leccy one.

And we towed off the stud not on mast or running blocks so rope had to go on motor counter.

And yes we did and yes it took a long time to cut off the prop.

[ditchcrawler]

38 minutes ago, Goliath said:

yhats kind of how I thought it worked,

 

cant you pull the butty up the locks using the motor boat in the pound above?

 

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by ditchcrawler

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

8 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

the moderns

😃

👍

[Tam & Di]

47 minutes ago, Richard Carter said:

BTW, the technique with cross straps was developed specifically for the case of an empty butty. I have no idea why the straps don't pull upwards off the dollies, but they absolutely don't. Having them as short as you can allows the motor steerer more control over the butty, but needs nifty work and good timing when picking up the butty from being breasted up - longer straps are more tolerant of lazy steering or adverse conditions of any sort.

 The stern dollies on a working narrowboat are a shape such that the straps don't pull off, and on some boats one of the pair would be a hook. It would be unusual to tow an empty butty with a loaded motor, but unless you got a backload from the place you've just unloaded you would be travelling as an empty pair to another wharf - not at all unusual.

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Morris said:

Er indoors would potentially steer it, but she is not too keen on the idea in general! 

With both of you steering, she'll be er outdoors!

[BEngo]

26 minutes ago, David Mack said:

With both of you steering, she'll be er outdoors!

Well,  " 'er in the hatches" is probably more accurate.

 

N

[zenataomm]

4 hours ago, spud said:

6 hours ago, zenataomm said:

You'll attract many new friends at single locks when you need to butty through.

this sounds like the view of somebody with a sense of entitlement, prepared to push their way through at the expense of others.

This is clearly the view of somebody who has not only never done it, but leaps at the chance of being righteously indignant at the drop of a hat.

[Francis Herne]

2 hours ago, Richard Carter said:

We spent a few years towing a Small Woolwich butty with a 35ft Springer

In the end the biggest problem was for me not the engine size and power, but the relative weight of the two boats, the tail really does wag the dog with a lightweight motor

At the Bradley rally I heard a similar story from a very experienced boater.

 

He'd towed a full-length mud hopper down from Ryders Green with a 36ft Springer. No trouble until he turned right at Tame Valley Junction - where the hopper continued straight on toward Walsall, with the Springer being dragged along stern-first!

[Tam & Di]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

With both of you steering, she'll be er outdoors!

Pairs of narrow boats travelling empty with the butty on cross straps mostly didn't need anyone to steer the butty on long pounds. You put the tiller on strings to hold it central or simply remove it. Obviousy if you are in a heavily locked section you'd not do that.

 

[Stilllearning]

12 hours ago, Richard Carter said:

 

We spent a few years towing a Small Woolwich butty with a 35ft Springer - with a 3cyl. Vetus Mitsubishi engine (just under 1000cc, from memory). Echo what has been said above about towing dollies and hardware for breasting up, I'd say they are essential. And yes, if you are a bit (or a lot) underpowered you need to go steady and not be too ambitious, be ready to give in sooner in strong winds, etc.

 

In the end the biggest problem was for me not the engine size and power, but the relative weight of the two boats, the tail really does wag the dog with a lightweight motor - I was glad I'd had experience working a camping pair, often with inexperienced hirers, sometimes with nobody steering the butty, that ups your game with the motor, it taught me a lot.

 

BTW, the technique with cross straps was developed specifically for the case of an empty butty. I have no idea why the straps don't pull upwards off the dollies, but they absolutely don't. Having them as short as you can allows the motor steerer more control over the butty, but needs nifty work and good timing when picking up the butty from being breasted up - longer straps are more tolerant of lazy steering or adverse conditions of any sort.

About 30 years ago I was innocently pootling towards the east portal of Braunston tunnel when two hippies on a very tired sagging unmotored 70ft motor asked me if I'd tow them though the tunnel and down the locks.

Not knowing any better, I said OK, despite being on a 32ft brumtug with a 3 cylinder vetus mitsubishi.

Breasting up all down the locks was shall we say interesting...the difference in lengths was extreme, the the old motor wasn't light as it was constantly leaking and there were two bilge pumps going all the time.

They were heading for Runcorn, I think.

The motor was so tender that I could see the hull move as I pulled away, and down at Braunston turn, I saw the front quarter of the bow move in as it pushed up against a moored boat.

So good luck!

[alan_fincher]

15 hours ago, MtB said:

Is it actually viable to tow an unladen butty on cross straps? Might the bow not be three or four feet higher up than the motor boat dollies? Or would this not matter? 

 

I've never towed a proper butty so have no idea...

 

I doubt you would hardly ever have a situation where the stud on the butty sat quite that high above the dollies on the motor.

But basically successful towing on straps relies on the thrust of the propeller passing beneath the the bow of the butty rather than it hitting the bow.

 

In the latter situation it will be hard work to make much progress, and much of the power of the engine will be wasted.

 

For an (empty) historic motor butty pairing, the motor will be drawing around 3 feet at the rear when underway, whereas the butty maybe drawing a little over 1 foot along its entire length.  Thus the fact that the motor is two feet further in will mean that most of its propeller thrust will be below the butty, and hence driving the boat along almost as well as if there were no butty.

 

Few "modern" boats draw 3 feet at the rear, and those which do bot would, in my view, work less well for towing an historic butty on straps.

[johnthebridge]

If you want a 70' "historic" boat, why not sell your existing boat and just buy a full length motor? Save you a lot of buggeration at locks...

[spud]

15 hours ago, zenataomm said:

This is clearly the view of somebody who has not only never done it, but leaps at the chance of being righteously indignant at the drop of a hat.

i thought your view was of somebody that had done it, and leaping at the chance of being righteously indignant at the drop of a hat is just impolite of you. everybody has to start somewhere.

17 hours ago, Rob-M said:

Keep the slack on the motor, as you move the motor forward you can let more line out as required.  Any spare gets bundled in the cabin. 

a dirty wet rope bundled in the nice clean cabin !!!!!!! 

[Tam & Di]

If you are breasting up a short boat with an unpowered longer vessel you need to have the sterns level. Otherwise you will go round a bend on the side towards the powered craft, but putting the elum over to go the other way the thrust simply hits the breasted boat and you get very little turning motion at all (unless the powered vessel is significantly deeper drafted than the unpowered one).

[alan_fincher]

5 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

If you are breasting up a short boat with an unpowered longer vessel you need to have the sterns level. Otherwise you will go round a bend on the side towards the powered craft, but putting the elum over to go the other way the thrust simply hits the breasted boat and you get very little turning motion at all (unless the powered vessel is significantly deeper drafted than the unpowered one).

 

 

Spot on!
 

I was coming down Hatton,  and a single hander with a 70 foot boat, asked me if I would breast up, and tow him, so he was free to work gates and paddles.  Bit he insisted on breasting bow to bow, creating the situation you describe.  At that point I should have refused - as can be imagined it ended in tears!

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

Spot on!
 

I was coming down Hatton,  and a single hander with a 70 foot boat, asked me if I would breast up, and tow him, so he was free to work gates and paddles.  Bit he insisted on breasting bow to bow, creating the situation you describe.  At that point I should have refused - as can be imagined it ended in tears!

didn’t he/you realise he was free to work his paddles and gates anyway?

 

I guess he saved a few litres of diesel, which is often what it’s about. 

[Rob-M]

I had a guy on a grp cruiser ask to breast up going up Hatton, I politely refused as I didn't want to be responsible for damaging his boat if I misjudged entering a lock.  He did about 3 locks with us and was exhausted so decided to tie up and let us carry on.  I'm sure he wanted an easy ride but didn't get it as Mrs-M went ahead to set and I worked my side of the lock which meant he had to get off and work his side.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

That’s what happens 😃gotta be careful 

 

Even single handing I have to be careful who I get involved with, and will often prefer to just go and do a fat boat flight on me own. 
 

And I will insist on doing my share of work  if sharing.