Finding contractors in London for gas and properller shaft works

[David Schweizer]

Just a small point regarding the jubilee clips. I always understood that only stainless steel clips should be used on a boat, even if it isn't a legal requirement  it would still be a god idea.

[gaetano]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

OP seems to think that the value of the boat is the price it is offered at minus the cost of the work recommended or highlighted by the surveyor.

I would have thought that the price offered is what the vendor would like to be offered. This may or may not be a good deal for the purchaser. 

Did the surveyor establish a market value?

 

Not sure about other narrowboat sales processes, but here's how it is working out for me: 1. seller puts boat on a website, with an asking price; 2. buyer visits boat, asks questions, etc... and if happy makes a bid (generally lower than initial asking prices, but in at least one case of boat I did bid for, I was outbidded by someone willing to pay more than the asking price!); 3 seller accepts the bid; 4. a sales agreement gets signed; 5. buyer pays a deposit; 6. buyer pays for a survey to be carried out; 7. if any defect is found, buyer is given 3 choices, namely to A) drop the offer and get the deposit back, B ) to have the seller make good on the defects, or C) to ask for a discount corresponding to the cost of making good.

I am now at 7C.

 

As far as I can tell, this is fairly common practice.

I did not ask the surveyor to establish a market value, as I did bid for the boat before having the survey done. I was present when the survey was carried out, and got from him, verbally, an opinion on the state of the boat and its value (if you are curious, his personal opinion was that, had I bid for the same boat before Covid, I would have saved 25K). Otoh, he refused to give me a quote or even a rough estimate, on the cost of the fixes / how much discount to ask for.

 

I don't think that having the survey done before the bid was accepted would make sense, as it would entail the risk of paying the surveyor for nothing...

 

FWIW, I have been looking at boat ads for one month and half, visited a few, and bid for more than a couple. Despite the asking prices being quite high (they seem fe. much higher in London than around Liverpool), I got the impression that the market was steaming hot, with many boats going quickly. This informed my decision to quickly make a bid for the boat I liked most, as well as the amount to offer.

 

Funnily enough, at least one of sellers came back to me as recently as yesterday, stating that his deal with the highest bidder had fallen through, and asking if I was still interested...

 

[gaetano]

10 hours ago, David Mack said:

Why is anyone going to bother to give you a quote if there is little prospect of them getting the work?

 

And I thought it was bad enough in Italy when every single one the contractors I could get for renovating my house turned out to be greedy amateurs. At least most would give quotes when asked...

Also, in my job as IT contractor, I never refused to provide a quote, as long as the requested work made sense.

Is the market for boat engineering services really in such conditions that you really, really have to convince a tradesman that he will get the job, before he will give a quote? It's not like I am asking them with a disclaimer that I only need it for bargaining the purchase price and will not really carry out the work...

[gaetano]

@Tony Brooks thanks for the tips on how to fix everything by myself. I will surely have a hundred more questions when I finally take ownership of the boat and start looking into operating, maintaining and upgrading everything onboard, and will gladly submit them to you 🙂

 

As for the last picture: it was meant to illustrate one more most-likely BSS fail related to the lpg piping: a place where an lpg pipe is in contact with an electrical wire.

[David Mack]

17 minutes ago, gaetano said:

7. if any defect is found, buyer is given 3 choices, namely to A) drop the offer and get the deposit back, B ) to have the seller make good on the defects, or C) to ask for a discount corresponding to the cost of making good.

I am now at 7C.

But the seller may take the view that these defects are already allowed for in the offer he has accepted, and he may be unwilling to drop the price any further. Unless you and the seller have already signed a sale contract which sets out the options 7A, B and C then the seller is not legally obliged to repair the defect or drop the price (or to return your deposit, although in the absence of a written agreement he would have difficulty arguing he can keep it). You are now in a position where you have to haggle to find a level of discount acceptable to you and the seller. Just because some contractor says the defect will cost £x to fix doesn't mean the seller will accept that figure.

[roland elsdon]

And while you are at it replace the rubber hose and jubilee with  stainless steel braided and compression fittings, to a fixed joint.

 

[StephenA]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

I have given my view on the shaft coupling and if the engine happens to be solidly mounted it could well be fine. If the engine is rubber mounted then the clamp on shaft coupling has to come off and sufficient shaft cut off to give space to fit the flexible. If you choose an R&D coupling you would need to saw off maybe half to three quarters of an inch. As long as the shaft and engine is correctly aligned then apart from the boredom of cutting the shaft it would be a DIY nut and bolt job unless there is a key and keyway involved.

 

I have no idea what the last photo is supposed to show so can't comment.

 

It's possible that the shaft doesn't need cutting - unless moving it out by that distance causes problems.

Edited August 8, 2023 by StephenA

[blackrose]

I might be wrong but I thought Collingwoods used vetus water lubricated stern glands, in which case you wouldn't want a flexible coupling. I've got the same stern gland and a R&D coupling fitted but it's not a fully flexible type.

Edited August 9, 2023 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I might be wrong but I thought Collingwoods used vetus water lubricated stern glands, in which care you wouldn't want a flexible coupling. I've got the same stern gland and a R&D coupling fitted but it's not a fully flexible type.

 

I suspect this might be the case, and if so the surveyor's opinion is open to question. However, until we see a photo of the gland we won't know. This is one reason why I mentioned R&D.

[Quattrodave]

22 hours ago, gaetano said:

 atm I also need quotes, as the purpose is to negotiate a discount before finalizing the sale.

 

Be a little careful there, if anyone asks me for discount, (unless they are a very good customer that I know well) get the 'that's the price, stop wasting my time, if you don't like it go elsewhere'

 

Good, well known trades people are sought after, I know it sounds backwards but you have to work with them, they don't have to work with you. Oh if you have a trade on site, don't be tight with tea, coffee & cake it's worth it's weight in gold!

 

I've had it before where a bloke tried to negotiate a discount after agreeing and after I purchased all the equipment and I was one site installing it...  I knew then he was going to be a pain, removed the equipment and left...

[blackrose]

22 hours ago, gaetano said:

These are the pictures from the survey report:

 

 

😱 WTF? 

 

I really don't understand why anyone would use jubilee clips even in the relative safety of a gas locker when the correct pigtail hoses & fittings are widely available. Whoever did that botch job should be condemned in the strongest possible manner.

Edited August 9, 2023 by blackrose

[magnetman]

39 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

 

Be a little careful there, if anyone asks me for discount, (unless they are a very good customer that I know well) get the 'that's the price, stop wasting my time, if you don't like it go elsewhere'

 

Good, well known trades people are sought after, I know it sounds backwards but you have to work with them, they don't have to work with you. Oh if you have a trade on site, don't be tight with tea, coffee & cake it's worth it's weight in gold!

 

I've had it before where a bloke tried to negotiate a discount after agreeing and after I purchased all the equipment and I was one site installing it...  I knew then he was going to be a pain, removed the equipment and left...

Discount on boat price

[MtB]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Discount on boat price

 

My understanding too. 

 

But given the size of the sums involved, it seems odd that a rough estimate isn't goos enough. Widebeam behemoth £120k (say), trivial gas leak and alterations to propshaft £2k (say). Why risk all the delays in getting firm quotes and having the seller sell it to someone else not being so picky about it? ? Just offer £118k. Or just buy it for asking price anyway, given the tightness of the market.

 

 

[LadyG]

I give up, the OP sticks to his position, in the meantime the vendor has possession of the boat.

The jobs required don't seem to be major, not likely anyone is going to quote. 

The vendor is not necessarily prepared to haggle over every flaw in minute detail.

Most purchasers would expect to have to pay for a few fixes.

 

33 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

😱 WTF? 

 

I really don't understand why anyone would use jubilee clips even in the relative safety of a gas locker when the correct pigtail hoses & fittings are widely available. Whoever did that botch job should be condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The boat seems to have been fitted out by the  owner, presumably this is reflected in the price.

The gas should have been

tested and have a BSS Certificate, with details. Ask to see it.

A smell of gas is alarming!

The boat can be used with the gas turned off at the bottle, a nuisance.

Edited August 9, 2023 by LadyG

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I give up, the OP sticks to his position, in the meantime the vendor has possession of the boat.

The jobs required don't seem to be major, not likely anyone is going to quote. 

The vendor is not necessarily prepared to haggle over every flaw in minute detail.

Most purchasers would expect to have to pay for a few fixes.

 

 

More pertinently, the seller is likely to get bored with waiting for completion and just return the deposit I predict. Then sell the boat to someone else not trying to collect quotes for work their surveyor says is necessary, but other surveyors may not even comment on.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

though a smell of gas is alarming! 

 

But perfectly understandable when the hose clip used is too large so it is impossible to fully clamp all the around the hose.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I give up, the OP sticks to his position, in the meantime the vendor has possession of the boat.

The jobs required don't seem to be major, not likely anyone is going to quote. 

The vendor is not necessarily prepared to haggle over every flaw in minute detail.

Most purchasers would expect to have to pay for a few fixes.

 

The boat seems to have been fitted out by the  owner, but presumably has had the gas tested and has a BSC certificate, though a smell of gas is alarming! 

 

 

Thats what a gas locker is for - to deflect the leak safely overboard.

[magnetman]

Mild steel jubilee clip totally the wrong size. One wonders what other terrible bodges there are better hidden around the boat. If someone thinks that is alright (they might think it is fine) it could be scary looking behind the panneling. 

 

 

Electrics? 

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

But perfectly understandable when the hose clip used is too large so it is impossible to fully clamp all the around the hose.

Hmmm, well I thought a gas tight seal is formed when the hose is pushed on to the fitting, then the jubilee clip, which should be s/steel is there to prevent the hose moving. Though of course it will increase the pressure on the fitting.

I don't know how old this boat is or what inspections and Certification should have been done. But that bodge is so obvious (and it has corroded), that it makes one hesitate. 

I used a boat Gas safe lpg endorsed examiner for my BSS  because I wanted to be absolutely sure it was safe, and indeed modifications were needed, in the opinion of that examiner.

I'd be looking at the BSCertificate for advisories. The boat surveyor picked up on that gas locker fault, did he test the gas, did he make further adverse comments or recommendations?

The OP really has to take his advice from the surveyor who will cover himself in his report, but will probably be helpful if the OP phones him. One tiny bodge is not a valid reason to reject a purchase, but if the complete gas system has to be inspected and tested, (which I would consider, bearing in mind the next BSC date), this is something to be done after purchase.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by LadyG

[gaetano]

Quote

[Why risk all the delays in getting firm quotes and having the seller sell it to someone else not being so picky about it? ? Just offer £118k. Or just buy it for asking price anyway, given the tightness of the market.

Indeed that's the most likely outcome 😉

 

My goal is not to be picky here - I just needed a ballpark estimate of the reduction to ask for. Not being a boat diy expert, and not having had a figure given by the surveyor, I thought that asking for quotes would be the most effective way to go forward.

The sales agreement specifically states that, after the survey is carried out, we have 14 days to agree on the price reduction. As one week has passed already, I will now approach the vendor and work out an agreement based on the information I have, ie. start out asking for 2K reduction.

 

Btw: so far, the vendor did not manifest dissatisfaction with the time this process is taking - and cancelling the sale and looking for another buyer would surely take much longer...

Edited August 9, 2023 by gaetano

[gaetano]

5 hours ago, blackrose said:

I might be wrong but I thought Collingwoods used vetus water lubricated stern glands, in which care you wouldn't want a flexible coupling. I've got the same stern gland and a R&D coupling fitted but it's not a fully flexible type.

 

Interesting. I will have to investigate more in detail then

[gaetano]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Mild steel jubilee clip totally the wrong size. One wonders what other terrible bodges there are better hidden around the boat. If someone thinks that is alright (they might think it is fine) it could be scary looking behind the panelling.

 

Electrics? 

 

Fingers crossed... I hope the surveyor did his job accurately and there's not (many) lurking surprises 😅

[gaetano]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

[...]

I don't know how old this boat is or what inspections and Certification should have been done. But that bodge is so obvious (and it has corroded), that it makes one hesitate. 

[...]

I'd be looking at the BSCertificate for advisories.

[...]

 

The boat did pass two BSS certifications beforehand; it was built in 2017.

As for advisories in the previous report, I was given a copy of the "summary" page, which only states that the boat passed, and the renewal date.

I have been told that the BSS does not make available the full report for previous certifications...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, gaetano said:

I just needed a ballpark estimate of the reduction to ask for. Not being a boat diy expert, and not having had a figure given by the surveyor, I thought that asking for quotes would be the most effective way to go forward.

The sales agreement specifically states that, after the survey is carried out, we have 14 days to agree on the price reduction.

 

Asking for a price reduction is not mandatory and can often offend the seller - I have sold 17 boats over the last few years and the price I ask is the price I will sell at. There is no reduction because the surveyour says the paint is the wrong colour, or you don't like the carpet. The boat is priced as you can see it.

 

Generally the contract will say something like "the agreed price can be negotiated if the cost of repairs is 10%, or 15% ( or some other figure) of the purchase price. It does not mean that the seller MUST negotiate.

 

If you have a survey then YOU decide if you want to pay the price asked, and any repairs the surveyor would like to see done, or, you can walk away.

 

There are more people wanting to buy boats than there are GOOD boats for sale.

[magnetman]

32 minutes ago, gaetano said:

 

The boat did pass two BSS certifications beforehand; it was built in 2017.

As for advisories in the previous report, I was given a copy of the "summary" page, which only states that the boat passed, and the renewal date.

I have been told that the BSS does not make available the full report for previous certifications...

 

A BSS inspection does not have a 'report' it is just a list of boxes which need to be ticked in order to pass.