Life jackets, really?

[Slim]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Then there are at least 2 of us.

Three!! There again I had a background of coastal and off-shore sailing.

I also walked off a pontoon in Falmouth Harbour at 10am (cold sobor) without a life jacket. By the time I surfaced it took 4 beefy sailors to pull me out.  

[tree monkey]

2 hours ago, howardang said:

I totally agree that it is a personal choice after making a risk assessment. One further important point to consider is that if you strike your head or otherwise injure yourself when falling in, or you are incapacitated through sudden illness etc,  you may  be unable to get out of the water unaided. A lifejacket may be your savior. I would never criticise anyone who decides that it is better to be safe (and alive)  than sorry.

 

Howard

 

Absolutely, it's a personal choice and like you I would never criticise someone's decision to wear one

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Absolutely, it's a personal choice and like you I would never criticise someone's decision to wear one

Or not... 😉

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Or not... 😉

Equally 

[Bargebuilder]

It's easy to think; I'll be able to pull myself out, or, I'll be able to swim to a ladder or shallow area, or, my partner will be able to rescue me, but this is often not the case.

 

I was involved in a rescue just weeks ago and it took three of us, all men, to heave the person out. It only took minutes for the person to become so cold that they couldn't help themselves, let alone swim and if there had only been one person to help, I don't want to think about the possible consequences.

 

I'm not a regular life jacket wearer apart from when I'm coastal sailing, but that incident was genuinely frightening.

[magnetman]

I was given a couple of auto lifejackets by a neighbour and put them in a locker. One day I spilled something on one of them (tea, water, beer I really don't remember) and it went orf. Scared the bejesus out of me and also completely wedged itself in the locker. 

 

I don't know if there is a straightforward deflation option but I could not access the bottle to unscrew it so got the sword cane out and stabbed it. Dealt with. 

 

That was scary ! The hissing sounded like an imminent attack by a large reptile like we used to get on safari in Africa back in the day. 

 

The foam ones may be okay but restrict movement. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Puffling said:

What I am saying is that a person becoming seriously injured though the fall (and thereby unable to extract themselves from the water) may not have enough time to summon help (and I can think of plenty of deep locks having few passers-by) before hypothermia sets in.

 

I'm this case surely a floatable VHF radio with DSC is a sensible pairing of any life jacket. DSC allows a distress signal to be sent and automatically gives your GPS coordinates.

 

I fairly sure that DSC is not allowed to be used 'inland', and, secondly a VHF will not work at the bottom of a lock (line of sight only), However what you describe is alrady available in the market and is called a PLB (Personal Location beacon) we all have one.

Local emergency services are (generally) notified within 5 minutes of you pressing the button.

They can be used on land, sea, Canals and aircraft anywhere in the world, and will always notify the emergency services where you are, not your home location.

 

No rental, no line charges, no 'call out fees', battery life 6 years.

 

McMurdo FastFind 220 - The World's first Galileo-enabled PLB.

A Personal Location Beacon (PLB) is a personal safety device designed to alert search and rescue services and allow them to quickly locate you in the event of an emergency, on land or sea. When activated it transmits a coded message on the 406 MHz distress frequency which is monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. The alert is then relayed via an earth station to the nearest Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC). As the satellites are in a polar orbit they offer true global coverage – with a PLB you can summon help wherever you are on the planet, no matter how remote.

A PLB uses an internal GPS/GNSS receiver to pinpoint your location to within 62m. Once in the area, rescue services are then able to pinpoint your precise location using the inbuilt 121.5Mhz homing transmitter.

Unlike EPIRBs which are registered to a specific vessel and must be re-registered if moved to a different boat, a PLB is registered to a person and so can be carried with you wherever you are - at sea, hiking, mountaineering or in any remote location or situation where you may require rescue. PLBs are subscription-free devices, so have no cost of ownership after the initial purchase.

The McMurdo FastFind 220 is small and light enough for you to carry on your person at all times. Using advanced technology, the FastFind 220 transmits a unique ID and your current GPS co-ordinates via the Cospas-Sarsat global search and rescue satellite network, alerting the rescue services within minutes. Once within the area, the search and rescue services can quickly home in on your location using the unit’s 121.5Mhz homing beacon and flashing LED SOS light.

The compact McMurdo FastFind 220 is quick and easy to activate, with a safe stow antenna which automatically deploys when the unit is activated. The battery enables it to operate continuously for a minimum of 24 hours. Waterproof to a depth of 10m, the FastFind 220 is also supplied with a flotation pouch, for easy retrieval.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I fairly sure that DSC is not allowed to be used 'inland', 

Interesting idea. 

 

So if you were to use DSC and someone heard it is the protocol that they just ignore you because you are not allowed to be using it? 

 

 

PLB is the right thing. 

 

 

[Tonka]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I was given a couple of auto lifejackets by a neighbour and put them in a locker. One day I spilled something on one of them (tea, water, beer I really don't remember) and it went orf. Scared the bejesus out of me and also completely wedged itself in the locker. 

 

I don't know if there is a straightforward deflation option but I could not access the bottle to unscrew it so got the sword cane out and stabbed it. Dealt with. 

 

That was scary ! The hissing sounded like an imminent attack by a large reptile like we used to get on safari in Africa back in the day. 

 

The foam ones may be okay but restrict movement. 

 

 

The foam ones degrade over time so need renewing every so often 

[Iain_S]

58 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Handheld VHF radios have very short transmission distances. 

 

I don't know exactly what the range us but it will be subject to solid objects so if someone fell in a canal or river where there was not a general tendency to use VHF radios it would be unlikely to work. 

 

Definitely no chance of it working if you fell in an empty lock on a canal. 

 

 

 

 

It might work on the tidal Thames but even there the range is remarkably short and it would rely on another boat listening on dual watch  ch 14/16 to be noticed. 

 

 

So a PLB might be a better choice ...

[magnetman]

What became of the EPIRB system? Does it still work? 

 

I still think the best approach is to just be 100% aware of your own position and behaviour and reduce the chance of accidents. Obviously accidents can be caused by other people or rodents and insects but a lot of them do happen because people have not mentally prepared themselves for the task they are undertaking. 

 

 

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Interesting idea. 

 

So if you were to use DSC and someone heard it is the protocol that they just ignore you because you are not allowed to be using it? 

 

 

PLB is the right thing. 

 

 

 

How does a PLB work when you're unconscious and possibly underwater?

[magnetman]

I don't know. Alan de E is the PLB man. Presumably they arrr activated by contact with water. 

[Bargebuilder]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I fairly sure that DSC is not allowed to be used 'inland', and, secondly a VHF will not work at the bottom of a lock (line of sight only), However what you describe is alrady available in the market and is called a PLB (Personal Location beacon) we all have one.

Local emergency services are (generally) notified within 5 minutes of you pressing the button.

They can be used on land, sea, Canals and aircraft anywhere in the world, and will always notify the emergency services where you are, not your home location.

 

 

 

 

 

Probably best use in combination with a life jacket: you could easily drown in the time it would take for the emergency services to reach you.

 

Do you think the bottom of a deep lock would reveal enough sky for at least three satellites to pinpoint ones position?

[Iain_S]

37 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Regarding servicing... is this yearly regardless of use?   I've worn mine for about 2hrs in the last few years and it lives in its original bag....... its a Crewsaver Crewfit 165N 

The usual recommendation for private, low usage is every two years. If the jacket is in commercial use, it's every year.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Interesting idea. 

 

So if you were to use DSC and someone heard it is the protocol that they just ignore you because you are not allowed to be using it? 

 

 

PLB is the right thing. 

 

 

 

 

I'd be surprised if anyone could actually pick up your DSC - and if they did they'd be leaning over the lock looking at you anyway.

 

As I'm sure you are aware DSC is simply a digital signal (not voice) 'calling distress' & giving your lat-long position

[magnetman]

I reckon if you fall in an empty canal lock with nobody about and knock yourself out its curtains. 

 

There are far worse ways to go! 

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'd be surprised if anyone could actually pick up your DSC - and if they did they'd be leaning over the lock looking at you anyway.

 

As I'm sure you are aware DSC is simply a digital signal (not voice) 'calling distress' & giving your lat-long position

I did mention that DSC would not work in a lock quite a few posts ago. 

Before you did

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, tree monkey said:

It's a personal choice/risk assessment but what did supprise  me is how deep a section of the Walsall canal actually was when I voluntarily went in, standing on some debris of unknown origin the water was up to my chin.

 

The above waffle basically means don't be too quick to scoff, not that I will be wearing one but I am a little more cautious now

Mine just blew off the tiller pin into the oggy, it was a two compartment automatic, past its date, but it looked OK.

 

I currently wear it part inflated on the river.

I'll probably get a new one for winter, most important is to get an automatic one,  with a crotch strap.

Edited August 2, 2023 by LadyG

[IanD]

I think the discussion about expensive maybe-will-maybe-won't-work DSC and PLB for canal/river use is basically pointless "I-know-better-than-you" willy-waving... 😞

 

If you want to be sensibly safe without spending (or wasting) an absolute fortune wear a proper automatic lifejacket like the Crewsaver, they're only about £80 each.

 

If you don't want to spend this much or think that being alert will save you or just prefer living on the edge, don't bother and take your chances.

 

Nothing else really makes any sense... 😉

[magnetman]

There was a discipline case on the Thames where a lock keeper did not use the crotch strap. I can't remember the exact detail but the EA, who are elfin safety "aware", came down like a ton of bricks. I think he might even have lost the job over it. 

 

 

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I think the discussion about expensive maybe-will-maybe-won't-work DSC and PLB for canal/river use is basically pointless "I-know-better-than-you" willy-waving... 😞

 

If you want to be sensibly safe without spending (or wasting) an absolute fortune wear a proper automatic lifejacket like the Crewsaver, they're only about £80 each.

 

If you don't want to spend this much or think that being alert will save you or just prefer living on the edge, don't bother and take your chances.

 

Nothing else really makes any sense... 😉

 

A rape alarm siren thing might make sense if it was waterproof. 

 

 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

There was a discipline case on the Thames where a lock keeper did not use the crotch strap. I can't remember the exact detail but the EA, who are elfin safety "aware", came down like a ton of bricks. I think he might even have lost the job over it. 

 

A rape alarm siren thing might make sense if it was waterproof. 

 

That's because if someone is safety-trained as part of their job and they break the rules, they're in breach of their contract. Nothing to do with personal safety responsibility outside work...

 

Maybe, if the rape siren was set off by being immersed, and the sound could magically get out of the water (hint: it can't), and if their was somebody there to hear it (solo boater in middle of nowhere...)...

 

If their was a magic reliable affordable technology solution, don't you think it would already be widely used? There's a reason that lifejackets are so common... 😉

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

Regarding servicing... is this yearly regardless of use?   I've worn mine for about 2hrs in the last few years and it lives in its original bag....... its a Crewsaver Crewfit 165N 

Yes!

The firing mechanisms are dated and have a limited life. Grass bottle can leak unusual but possible. Easy to check the weight at the post office.

Bladders can become porous and deflate.

However it's your life.

Mine sit unused for years and are always checked before use.

There are two dating standards on the firing mechanisms, the cartridges are  replace before date  the bobbins are a manufactured date and there is a four year limit. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by GUMPY

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

That's because if someone is safety-trained as part of their job and they break the rules, they're in breach of their contract. Nothing to do with personal safety responsibility outside work...

 

Maybe, if the rape siren was set off by being immersed, and the sound could magically get out of the water (hint: it can't), and if their was somebody there to hear it (solo boater in middle of nowhere...)...

 

If their was a magic reliable affordable technology solution, don't you think it would already be widely used? There's a reason that lifejackets are so common... 😉

I think the reason these things don't matter is because people basically don't fall into empty locks. 

 

OK so it will happen from time to time but so does people getting killed by falling trees. 

 

Its basically a problem that does not need solving. 

 

On the lifejacket question. 

 

If you fell into a lock (lets say the paddles are not up) in cold weather with nobody else around and knocked yourself out in the process is a lifejacket actually going to statistically improve your chances of survival? 

 

I don't see it. 

 

 

The lifejacket could impede swimming and make it more awkward to use an egress ladder in an emergency. 

 

It might actually be a very bad thing at the time. Open water yes but enclosed waterways ?

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I think the reason these things don't matter is because people basically don't fall into empty locks. 

 

OK so it will happen from time to time but so does people getting killed by falling trees. 

 

Its basically a problem that does not need solving. 

 

On the lifejacket question. 

 

If you fell into a lock (lets say the paddles are not up) in cold weather with nobody else around and knocked yourself out in the process is a lifejacket actually going to statistically improve your chances of survival? 

 

I don't see it. 

 

 

 

Yes, because without it you'll probably drown very rapidly.

 

With it you should at least float face up, which gives you *some* chance of recovering consciousness before you die of hypothermia, and being able to climb out -- always assuming this is possible.

 

So not 100% chance of survival, but a damn sight better than if you *don't* have a lifejacket on...

Edited August 2, 2023 by IanD

[Ronaldo47]

I remember a columnist in one of the canal mags a few years ago, recounting the difficulty he had had getting himself out of the canal when he missed his footing and fell in while single-handling in winter. He was moored up at the time, the towpath was piled, and his main trouble was the weight of his sodden winter clothing, which, being wet, was almost impossible to remove while he was in the water.