Richard Parry Responds to my Email About Tarmacking Over the Towpaths

[CathyC]

Dear Cathy,

 

Many thanks for your email. I understand that you have already had a response from our local team which explains that there are no plans to put tarmac (or any other surface) on the towpath at Tyle Mill, but I thought I should let you know a bit more about this from a national perspective.

 

To be clear, the Trust does not, or ever has, had a plan to tarmac all towpaths. We do, of course, want to do what we can to make our towpaths as usable and accessible as possible, but we only ever do that within the character and local context of the canal itself. This means that working with local stakeholders, we choose the right materials for the location. Of course, in some places this might mean using tarmac (such as we have on busy, urban sections of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal, for example) but in most places, especially more rural ones, we’re much more likely to use a crush stone or self-binding surface - and that’s even if we would make any changes at all.

 

Whilst over the past 10 years we have undertaken improvements to around 25% of the network, as a charity we are absolutely reliant on 3^rd party funds and working with local authorities and other partners (such as the Department of Transport and Sustrans). This means that improvements are generally born from a local need, such as a preexisting poor state of maintenance or a change to the local use through population growth, for example. It also means that they are not funded from our government grant or boaters licence fees.

 

The towpath you have mentioned at Horseden Hill in Ealing is a good example of this. Before the improvements, the towpath in this area, which was funded by Transport for London, was often not usable during the winter months. In the summer, when towpaths are more popular, conflict between users and accidents such as trips and falls were much more unlikely, due to the lack of usable space and number of pot holes.  Now this towpath is part of a 13-mile section of the Grand Union Paddington Arm, on which one could push a wheel-chair the whole length, all year round. It connects millions of people to Europe’s biggest industrial park (Park Royal) and London’s West End, providing low-cost routes to employment and access to nature in some of the most green space deficient areas of the county. It’s also worth noting that this project also included works which allowed us to improve the waterway wall (ensuring that the navigation itself will be in better condition for decades to come) and whilst the surface is tarmacked, in places, it’s also been given a tar spray and chip dressing which matches the character of the area, makes it more durable, non-slip and creates some tactile feedback that encourages those on bikes to take it easy.

 

It is, inevitable, of course, that some people will act in an anti-social way, and ride too fast or in an inconsiderate way, which is why we also promote our Towpath Code and run our Stay Kind Slow Down campaign to remind cyclists that pedestrians have priority on the towpath.

 

As an overview, all of this work was consulted on and endorsed by 16 national bodies through the Better Towpaths for Everyone policy. It’s also worth noting that this document was shared and discussed with the Trust’s council, which includes 4 elected boaters representatives, but please, rest assured when we do make changes locally, we also work with local stakeholders, including (and especially!) boaters, to ensure we’re getting the balance right. Our towpaths are for everyone to enjoy and it’s our aim to improve them in a way that is sensitive and supports local communities to get the most out of them, now and into the future.

 

With regards to the towpath at Tyle Mill specifically, to reiterate what we’ve already said, we do not have any plans to make any changes here and it’s certainly not a place we’d consider tarmac, in any way. We’ve asked the local team about the engineers that you say you have seen on site and as far as we can tell none of the Trusts engineers have been in the area recently, so perhaps they were working on behalf of the local authority or, perhaps, a neighbouring landowner? In any event, even if someone wants to work with us and provide funds to improve the towpath in this area, we’d welcome it and work with them, but it will absolutely be up to the Trust to choose the materials … and tarmac certainly wouldn’t be on our list.

 

Hopefully, this goes some way to allaying your concerns, but if you need more information, please don’t hesitate to contact myself or the local team, who will be more than happy to help you further.

 

Regards,

 

Richard Parry

Chief Executive

Canal & River Trust

Richard.parry-at-canalrivertrust-dot-org-dot-uk

 

[IanD]

That seems like a well-thought-out and sensible response from Richard Parry, I'd be interested to know what @CathyC thinks of it.

[magnetman]

One wonders if they both have the same definition of 'tarmac'. 

 

What a 'self binding surface'? 

 

Could this be something that people might think is 'tarmac' because it is a hard road surface but it actually isn't tarmac. 

 

 

[tree monkey]

6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

One wonders if they both have the same definition of 'tarmac'. 

 

What a 'self binding surface'? 

 

Could this be something that people might think is 'tarmac' because it is a hard road surface but it actually isn't tarmac. 

 

 

Self binding is a material that once laid and compacted binds together without any additional binder, tarmac is in effect a binder but it's a specialised surface that really requires all sorts of additional work to ensure a decent life and surface.

 

Basically the crushed limestone surface that is fairly common is a mix of different sizes plus dust, all of which binds together once compacted, there are other types one which uses stone and a clay to act as a binder.

 

It doesn't really look like tarmac in any way

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by tree monkey

[alan_fincher]

Just now, tree monkey said:

Self binding is a material that once laid and compacted binds together without any additional binder.

 

Basically the crushed limestone surface that is fairly common is a mix of different sizes plus dust, all of which binds together once compacted, there are other types one which uses stone and a clay to act as a binder.

 

It doesn't really look like tarmac in any way

 

Excellent reply from the Monkey.
 

I think there is more than a little potential for cross wires because if the use if the term "Tarmac"

 

I can't immediately think of any Tarmac towpaths, but can think of very many miles using the Self Binding approach.

 

If Richard has taken the term Tarmac literally, then Cathy may not have got the answer s thinks she has.

[magnetman]

This is what I was getting at. 

 

I think people seeing a self binding surface (thank you @tree monkey) might call it 'tarmacking'. 

 

The term used was not 'applying tarmac' it was 'tarmacking' which is more of a generic term referring to solid road type surfaces. 

 

I think Richard P may have been a bit naughty. 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Excellent reply from the Monkey.
 

I think there is more than a little potential for cross wires because if the use if the term "Tarmac"

 

I can't immediately think of any Tarmac towpaths, but can think of very many miles using the Self Binding approach.

 

If Richard has taken the term Tarmac literally, then Cathy may not have got the answer s thinks she has.

Isn't a "self-binding surface" what often used to be called "macadam"? Used to get lots of these roads in rural areas in places like Yugoslavia before they were "improved" with tarmac.

 

Yes I know that nowadays the two terms are used interchangeably, but there definitely used to be a difference -- "macadam roads" didn't have the black bituminous binder that tarmac ones did, which is optional:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macadam

 

"Macadam is a type of road construction pioneered by Scottish engineer John Loudon McAdam around 1820, in which crushed stone is placed in shallow, convex layers and compacted thoroughly. A binding layer of stone dust (crushed stone from the original material) may form; it may also, after rolling, be covered with a cement or bituminous binder to keep dust and stones together."

[tree monkey]

Tarmac and the other self binding surface dressings are fairly easy to tell apart but I suppose if someone has absolutely no experience of the techniques there could be some confusion, can't see it myself but who knows

 

Mind you most of the complaints I see about surface treatments on towpaths are moaning about the dust which is abundant after the work has been completed, this is generally a sign of crush and run or limestone self binding and certainly not tarmac

[magnetman]

[john.k]

In any case ,its highly unlikely tar is used ,being a byproduct from gasworks of the coal fired type............So the black surface is going to be bitumen ,and  some extender ,as bitumen has become costly.............hotmix types are popular ,as the content of bitumen is quite low.

[magnetman]

 

I think self binding might fulfil the 'similar material' part of the definition.

 

To a surfacing man or other professional the difference is obvious but perhaps not to a lay person. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by magnetman
add defintion

[john.k]

Id think hotmix or blacktop is a more recognizable term ,with tarmac a term likely to be used by Jeremy Clarkson,or someone of that era.

[blackrose]

3 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Self binding is a material that once laid and compacted binds together without any additional binder.

 

 

It's also a technique used to tie oneself up during sessions of auto-erotic asphyxiation used to heighten sexual arousal during masturbation, as practiced by some celebrities. 

 

I've never tried it myself. 😋

[Tonka]

2 hours ago, CathyC said:

Dear Cathy,

 

Many thanks for your email. I understand that you have already had a response from our local team which explains that there are no plans to put tarmac (or any other surface) on the towpath at Tyle Mill, but I thought I should let you know a bit more about this from a national perspective.

 

To be clear, the Trust does not, or ever has, had a plan to tarmac all towpaths. We do, of course, want to do what we can to make our towpaths as usable and accessible as possible, but we only ever do that within the character and local context of the canal itself. This means that working with local stakeholders, we choose the right materials for the location. Of course, in some places this might mean using tarmac (such as we have on busy, urban sections of the Leeds & Liverpool Canal, for example) but in most places, especially more rural ones, we’re much more likely to use a crush stone or self-binding surface - and that’s even if we would make any changes at all.

 

Whilst over the past 10 years we have undertaken improvements to around 25% of the network, as a charity we are absolutely reliant on 3^rd party funds and working with local authorities and other partners (such as the Department of Transport and Sustrans). This means that improvements are generally born from a local need, such as a preexisting poor state of maintenance or a change to the local use through population growth, for example. It also means that they are not funded from our government grant or boaters licence fees.

 

The towpath you have mentioned at Horseden Hill in Ealing is a good example of this. Before the improvements, the towpath in this area, which was funded by Transport for London, was often not usable during the winter months. In the summer, when towpaths are more popular, conflict between users and accidents such as trips and falls were much more unlikely, due to the lack of usable space and number of pot holes.  Now this towpath is part of a 13-mile section of the Grand Union Paddington Arm, on which one could push a wheel-chair the whole length, all year round. It connects millions of people to Europe’s biggest industrial park (Park Royal) and London’s West End, providing low-cost routes to employment and access to nature in some of the most green space deficient areas of the county. It’s also worth noting that this project also included works which allowed us to improve the waterway wall (ensuring that the navigation itself will be in better condition for decades to come) and whilst the surface is tarmacked, in places, it’s also been given a tar spray and chip dressing which matches the character of the area, makes it more durable, non-slip and creates some tactile feedback that encourages those on bikes to take it easy.

 

It is, inevitable, of course, that some people will act in an anti-social way, and ride too fast or in an inconsiderate way, which is why we also promote our Towpath Code and run our Stay Kind Slow Down campaign to remind cyclists that pedestrians have priority on the towpath.

 

As an overview, all of this work was consulted on and endorsed by 16 national bodies through the Better Towpaths for Everyone policy. It’s also worth noting that this document was shared and discussed with the Trust’s council, which includes 4 elected boaters representatives, but please, rest assured when we do make changes locally, we also work with local stakeholders, including (and especially!) boaters, to ensure we’re getting the balance right. Our towpaths are for everyone to enjoy and it’s our aim to improve them in a way that is sensitive and supports local communities to get the most out of them, now and into the future.

 

With regards to the towpath at Tyle Mill specifically, to reiterate what we’ve already said, we do not have any plans to make any changes here and it’s certainly not a place we’d consider tarmac, in any way. We’ve asked the local team about the engineers that you say you have seen on site and as far as we can tell none of the Trusts engineers have been in the area recently, so perhaps they were working on behalf of the local authority or, perhaps, a neighbouring landowner? In any event, even if someone wants to work with us and provide funds to improve the towpath in this area, we’d welcome it and work with them, but it will absolutely be up to the Trust to choose the materials … and tarmac certainly wouldn’t be on our list.

 

Hopefully, this goes some way to allaying your concerns, but if you need more information, please don’t hesitate to contact myself or the local team, who will be more than happy to help you further.

 

Regards,

 

Richard Parry

Chief Executive

Canal & River Trust

Richard.parry-at-canalrivertrust-dot-org-dot-uk

 

Problem is where they put the "Pedestrian have priority " signs. If you go to Leamington Spa and stop opposite Morrison's. Where the Pedestrian crossing leaves the towpath to go across the road ther are 2 signs 50 yards away from the crossing on the towpath. Does this not imply that the cyclist have priority everywhere else apart from that 100 yards

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Problem is where they put the "Pedestrian have priority " signs. If you go to Leamington Spa and stop opposite Morrison's. Where the Pedestrian crossing leaves the towpath to go across the road ther are 2 signs 50 yards away from the crossing on the towpath. Does this not imply that the cyclist have priority everywhere else apart from that 100 yards

No more than any other warning signs mean you can do the opposite elsewhere. It's a reminder in one particular place where there are likely to be a lot more pedestrians crossing than normal, to tell people to pay extra attention. Like "Danger -- Deep Water" notices don't mean it's safe everywhere else, but that some places are more dangerous than usual.

Edited June 22, 2023 by IanD

[tree monkey]

16 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

It's also a technique used to tie oneself up during sessions of auto-erotic asphyxiation used to heighten sexual arousal during masturbation, as practiced by some celebrities. 

 

I've never tried it myself. 😋

Well that was an unexpected reply.

 

33 minutes ago, john.k said:

Id think hotmix or blacktop is a more recognizable term ,with tarmac a term likely to be used by Jeremy Clarkson,or someone of that era.

The term used that I am familiar with is bitmac but as someone who is paid to point at trees I only really have a basic idea of the technicalities. 

I call it tarmac because it annoys the tarmac teams

 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

It's also a technique used to tie oneself up during sessions of auto-erotic asphyxiation used to heighten sexual arousal during masturbation, as practiced by some celebrities. 

 

I've never tried it myself. 😋

 

So presumably self binding towpath involves exhibitionism as well?     

 

 

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

So presumably self binding towpath involves exhibitionism as well?     

 

 

Only by the cyclist's in body hugging lycra. 😁

[John Brightley]

22 hours ago, magnetman said:

This is what I was getting at. 

 

I think people seeing a self binding surface (thank you @tree monkey) might call it 'tarmacking'. 

 

The term used was not 'applying tarmac' it was 'tarmacking' which is more of a generic term referring to solid road type surfaces. 

 

I think Richard P may have been a bit naughty. 

No, I don't think so. Self-binding gravel is a very different surface to tarmac and looks very different (it's usually a very different colour for a start) so there shouldn't be any reason why people seeing a self-binding surface would confuse it with tarmac.

[LadyG]

I prefer natural stone colour rather than blue black. And, importantly, it should be rough and make a noise to alert walkers, boaters and to slow cyclists. We need to get the message that these towpaths are not racetracks. That they are essentially for leisure use 

[John Brightley]

Just to clarify a little further, Breedon gravel is the most commonly used self-binding surface (in my experience here in the Midlands) -see this link: https://www.breedon-special-aggregates.co.uk/breedon-golden-amber-gravel/ , but a number of other natural stones in different parts of the country have self-binding qualities so usually the most local one is used. Another name for a similar surface is 'hoggin'.

Edited June 23, 2023 by John Brightley

[magnetman]

10 minutes ago, John Brightley said:

No, I don't think so. Self-binding gravel is a very different surface to tarmac and looks very different (it's usually a very different colour for a start) so there shouldn't be any reason why people seeing a self-binding surface would confuse it with tarmac.

 

Maybe. 

 

It seems odd to me that someone would be concerned about towpaths being 'tarmacked' when they are are actually not being tarmacked. 

 

I feel there is a high degree of probability that the word 'tarmacked' does not refer to the actual surface but us a reference to hard road surface. 

 

 

The phrase was 'tarmacking over the towpaths'. This isn't happening BUT a lot of towpaths are having a hard surface applied. 

 

 

[Tonka]

21 hours ago, IanD said:

No more than any other warning signs mean you can do the opposite elsewhere. It's a reminder in one particular place where there are likely to be a lot more pedestrians crossing than normal, to tell people to pay extra attention. Like "Danger -- Deep Water" notices don't mean it's safe everywhere else, but that some places are more dangerous than usual.

So you are driving along the road and come to a 20mph sign. This implies the bit before you could do over 20. The bit before the "Pedestrian has Priority" implies they did not have priority. You need to look at it from the cyclists point of view 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, Tonka said:

So you are driving along the road and come to a 20mph sign. This implies the bit before you could do over 20. The bit before the "Pedestrian has Priority" implies they did not have priority. You need to look at it from the cyclists point of view 

It seems that you're looking at it from the anti-cyclist point of view... 😉

 

If there's only you doing this, are you an anticyclone?... 🙂

Edited June 23, 2023 by IanD

[Unicorn Stampede]

18 hours ago, Jon57 said:

Only by the cyclist's in body hugging lycra. 😁

There's a nude cyclist by us - goes up and down the towpath stark bollock naked.