Mooring idea...?

[captain flint]

I've been thinking about mooring fixtures - and reading old threads on here on the subject. 

 

I've had what I think might be a good idea, but it might not. And in any case, I can't find what I'm looking for online. 

 

So I thought I'd sketch the idea out here to see what people think of it in principle, and if it's seems like a good one, how I might get my hands on what I need. 

 

Like many on here, my favoured way of mooring is with mooring chains, the ones with a ring on each end attached by a shackle, one ring smaller than the other, so it can pass through it. I think that's what people mean when they say 'goat chains' (?). 

 

If the gap is too small even for the ring to pass through, I sometimes undo the shackle, remove it and the loop, drop the chain down the narrow gap, reattach shackle and loop, pass one ring through t'other, and I'm good to go. Or good to stay, I suppose that should be. 

 

However, on departure, I have sometimes had problems with a jammed chain. I can usually get it out with various bits of jiggery pokery (sorry to blind you with technical jargon). But it's a pain the arse - and on one recent occasion, after a lot of effort, I just gave up and left the chain there (I had no means of cropping it). 

 

What I'm thinking might be great - but you might think otherwise and I'd like to hear your thoughts - would be a length of steel cable with a low profile, twistable threaded barrel. I might not have described it well they're are some links below to something similar in form (but not size or strength) that should clarify. 

 

Basically, what I want is a longer, stronger version of a steel cable keyrings. 

 

Like this:

 

https://www.fruugo.co.uk/13cm-wire-keychain-cable-large-stainless-steel-key-ring-loop-holder-for-outdoor/p-76585599-154679370?language=en&ac=croud&utm_source=organic_shopping&utm_medium=organic

 

And this:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153659906769?hash=item23c6d81ad1:g:WXMAAOSwPEBgLqBu

 

You could just wiggle the cable down through a fairly small gap, and screw it back up, and pass the mooring chain through the loop and f cable (or pass the cable through one of the rings on one end of the chain and then screw it back up, obviously). 

 

The cable length is usually 15cm -  I think you'd want at least twice that. And while you could of course screw two or three together to make a double/triple length, they usually come with cable that's only 2mm (or even 1.5mm) thick. And they're designed to hold keys, not 20 tonnes of boat. But maybe they'd be strong enough, maybe 2mm of steel cable is comparable to a mooring line in terms of strength? I have no clue on that front (interested to hear what you think on that). 

 

I haven't found any with thicker cable, and steel cable producing companies I've spoken to aren't interested (unsurprisingly - they've got bigger fish to fry) 

 

What do people think of the idea in principle? Is there a reason - given suitably robust cable - it would be a *bad* idea? I'm not overly concerned that someone might unscrew the ends. Not a lot of that sort of thing where I am, plus I reckon you could make sure the threaded bit is out of sight. 

 

Otherwise, I'm trying to think how I might get my hands on/get someone to make such a thing... 

[Hudds Lad]

A trailer breakaway cable or bike security cable might do the job, dangle it through and then pass one end through the other like with chains or shackle the ends together?

 

https://amzn.eu/d/gTJPAer

 

https://amzn.eu/d/fvMgwYu

 

Those were the first examples i grabbed

[ditchcrawler]

If you pass it down beside a fixing bolt it shouldn't jam

[captain flint]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you pass it down beside a fixing bolt it shouldn't jam

Indeed. I'm talking about the tricky spots rather than the easy ones

6 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

A trailer breakaway cable or bike security cable might do the job, dangle it through and then pass one end through the other like with chains or shackle the ends together?

 

https://amzn.eu/d/gTJPAer

 

https://amzn.eu/d/fvMgwYu

 

Those were the first examples i grabbed

Thanks, but at least one end needs to be smaller than a link in a mooring chain

Edited June 16, 2023 by captain flint

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, captain flint said:

Indeed. I'm talking about the tricky spots rather than the easy ones

 

I wouldn't put a chain down anywhere except by a bolt . its a recipe for jamming as it gets pulled along by passing boats

Edited June 16, 2023 by ditchcrawler
Spilling

[captain flint]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wouldn't put a chain down anywhere except by a bolt . its a recipe for jamming as it gets pulled along by passing boats

Yeah. This is rather my point I feel! (hence thinking about cable) 

Edited June 16, 2023 by captain flint

[Tony Brooks]

Unless the cable has a diameter of at least the width of the chain links it replaces, I think it is just as likely to jamb or even slip past several pieces of Armco unless put down by bolt.

[captain flint]

13 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

A trailer breakaway cable or bike security cable might do the job, dangle it through and then pass one end through the other like with chains or shackle the ends together?

 

https://amzn.eu/d/gTJPAer

 

https://amzn.eu/d/fvMgwYu

 

Those were the first examples i grabbed

Actually, you might be onto something. If I removed the sprung hoop from this it might be just the ticket, thanks for the idea! 

 

https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/products/heavy-duty-high-vis-breakaway-cable-long-1-5m?variant=31656979038280&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&srsltid=AR57-fAJCT64Hdtz6MwSTR2-KZvGnIIvNOb-Ybm18IUA94wa13R66J8a7BI

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Unless the cable has a diameter of at least the width of the chain links it replaces, I think it is just as likely to jamb or even slip past several pieces of Armco unless put down by bolt.

Um... The cable could have the width of the steel that makes up a chain link without being anything like as wide as the diameter of the *whole* link though, couldn't it! I mean the steel in my chain is maybe 4mm. But the width of the oval that is the *link* is more like 20mm. And that's before we even get onto the fact that each link is attached to the next, creating angles, rather than a single, straight bit of cable. 

[Ewan123]

4 minutes ago, captain flint said:

Actually, you might be onto something. If I removed the sprung hoop from this it might be just the ticket, thanks for the idea! 

 

https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/products/heavy-duty-high-vis-breakaway-cable-long-1-5m?variant=31656979038280&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&srsltid=AR57-fAJCT64Hdtz6MwSTR2-KZvGnIIvNOb-Ybm18IUA94wa13R66J8a7BI

I just wonder whether something like this might be more vulnerable to getting worn down than the solid chain variety. At least that outer sheath would probably start falling off quite soon I expect.

[captain flint]

6 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

I just wonder whether something like this might be more vulnerable to getting worn down than the solid chain variety. At least that outer sheath would probably start falling off quite soon I expect.

The other sheath would fail, I'm sure. But that wouldn't bother me - if the cable is strong enough that's the main thing. (If...) 

 

(I mean, the sheath is largely cosmetic, I think, and a maybe a little bit so it's nice and smooth and not chafing, but that wouldn't really matter. Without the sheath corrosion, over time, would probably be an issue, but only over time, and you could replace it easily and cheaply enough when needed) 

[magnetman]

I think it might be against the byelaws to secure boats to the piling. 

 

I started using crane hooks beside one of the securing rods about 25 yars ago but this is probably quite old fashioned now !

This type of thing. It is remarkable how well they hold. 

 

 

 

Another approach is to fashion a length of channel section about 3"x1" and 3 feet long and drop it in the gap. Drill a hole and put a shackle at the top for the rope. If the piling is not badly distorted it will tend to wedge itself in place and be easy to withdraw. 

 

 

2 feet long will probably suffice. If you had some holes in it you could alter the height of the securing point by putting a threaded rod through with a bolt each side thereby preventing the boat from pulling it upwards. 

[Rincewind]

The mooring chains most frequently offered for sale in chandlers and described by the OP are, in my opinion, a pretty poor offering with the inclusion of the shackle & ring option being the result of a solution to a problem not fully thought out.

 

A much better solution is to use a section of Stainless Steel lifting chain like in the picture below. The length of chain in the picture will make two mooring chains with the oval rings at each end able to slip through each other easily.  Oval to oval is approx. 1m.   I have used them for years without issue.

 

 

Ditchcrawler has described the solution to prevent chains jamming between the Pilings and Waling bar but if it does jam why not use the power of the boat to release it.

[Hudds Lad]

4 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

The mooring chains most frequently offered for sale in chandlers and described by the OP are, in my opinion, a pretty poor offering with the inclusion of the shackle & ring option being the result of a solution to a problem not fully thought out.

 

A much better solution is to use a section of Stainless Steel lifting chain like in the picture below. The length of chain in the picture will make two mooring chains with the oval rings at each end able to slip through each other easily.  Oval to oval is approx. 1m.   I have used them for years without issue.

 

 

I like the look of that, where's a good place to get some from? Saves me a Google & Guess if you know a good supplier  

[captain flint]

So far lots of excellent replies making perfectly valid points, thanks for all of them! 

 

However, cable would have advantages over them in the right circumstances, in particular where there's a gap behind the piling that's very narrow. Kind of my whole point really! 

 

It's true that I might fall foul of the odd bylaw, but it seems to me that in the places I frequent, there are sticklers for not attaching yourself to Riverside installations such as railings (however sturdy, however appropriately situated, and despite the fact the Boater's Handbook specifically recommends this!) - but I've never heard of them saying anything about attachments to the pilings

7 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

 

A much better solution is to use a section of Stainless Steel lifting chain like in the picture below. 

 

Looks lovely, and very effective when usable, thanks for the tip! 

 

But of course the inclusion of a shackle is a solution to a problem that chain would absolutely have - namely, you'd have to be able to fit one of those large ovals through the gap you want to use. Which brings me back to square one, really. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I really don't have an issue with how to moor the heat majority of the time. I have various bits of kit, and ways of using them. My question is for those times when only a mooring pin in the bank is currently possible, but where a small gap behind the piling is there, ready for anything small and strong enough to wriggle through. Where I am, it's not the norm, but it's not exactly rare as hen's teeth, either. 

 

So far, I still reckon my basic idea is a good one, would be really handy and easy, and have an obvious advantage in the right circs. But it's just a question of being able to find something suitable. That breakaway cable suggestion might do it, though

[magnetman]

Mooring to railings is obviously a no-no because those railings are there for the safety of pedestrians. 

 

Unless you produce a written risk assessment as to the durability of the railings versus the mass of the boat and potential unexpected outcomes it is not acceptable to tie to railings. 

 

 

[Rincewind]

5 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

I like the look of that, where's a good place to get some from? Saves me a Google & Guess if you know a good supplier  

Most companies near you that specalise in lifting equipment will be able to get some of this chain for you and may well have some offcuts if you ask them.  Often used for attaching to submersible pumps so that they can be lifted out for maintenance - if you know anyone in that industry! 

 

https://www.liftinggeardirect.co.uk/lifting-equipment/lifting-slings/pump-lifting-chains/grade-316-pump-lifting-chain

[captain flint]

22 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Mooring to railings is obviously a no-no because those railings are there for the safety of pedestrians. 

 

Unless you produce a written risk assessment as to the durability of the railings versus the mass of the boat and potential unexpected outcomes it is not acceptable to tie to railings. 

 

 

There are railings and there are railings. Some are strong as houses, written assessment or not. There are railings plenty strong enough, 2 inch steel poles attache to concrete as sturdily as a mooring ring, where mooring creates no issues for pedestrians at all. I don't use them for mooring, ever, as I know I would get in trouble (it happened once, as I want aware of this rule, having only seen the advice in the Boaters' Handbook which runs contrary to it). 

 

I can see that it's simpler just to say its not allowed and then to enforce it regardless of whether it would in fact have been secure and totally unproblematic. Indeed, I'm somewhat sympathetic to that. But I reserve the right to think that, in some specific lcations, this is rather silly in and of itself. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by captain flint

[noddyboater]

Slightly off topic but I saw a new method of mooring this week. 

A chap had used his piling hooks loosely into mooring rings on a concrete bank. Not quite sure what that's about but it doesn't bode well if you get a bit of slack. 

[ditchcrawler]

18 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

Slightly off topic but I saw a new method of mooring this week. 

A chap had used his piling hooks loosely into mooring rings on a concrete bank. Not quite sure what that's about but it doesn't bode well if you get a bit of slack. 

Normally due to boaters who permanently attach their "nappy pin" mooring hooks to their mooring lines 

[cuthound]

18 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I wouldn't put a chain down anywhere except by a bolt . its a recipe for jamming as it gets pulled along by passing boats

 

Same with piling hooks.

[PeterF]

I expect that a small diameter wire rope that rubs along the armco as boats pass will wear through a few strands, which will then lift and make a good source of finger piercing sharp pointed objects. Wire rops is great but rubbing contact is not its forte.

[captain flint]

21 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

27 minutes ago, PeterF said:

 

 

Can I not trash this posting accident? Seems not! Maybe I'm being a luddite. I'll try again

29 minutes ago, PeterF said:

I expect that a small diameter wire rope that rubs along the armco as boats pass will wear through a few strands, which will then lift and make a good source of finger piercing sharp pointed objects. Wire rops is great but rubbing contact is not its forte.

This seems like a good point. I might try my luck, but I'll mind my fingers, thanks for the heads up

[enigmatic]

18 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Slightly off topic but I saw a new method of mooring this week. 

A chap had used his piling hooks loosely into mooring rings on a concrete bank. Not quite sure what that's about but it doesn't bode well if you get a bit of slack. 

I've done this in a couple of places where the ring was missing and the bit of iron it fitted to could take a hook but not a rope. Needless to say, I tied my ropes up tightly  

[noddyboater]

I've seen some classic mooring techniques in the past few weeks now it's silly season.

Got one drifting across in front of me where the stern was tied to a short length of piling,  the centre line on a pin (now in the cut), and the bow line neatly coiled on the gas locker lid.

Who'd have thought that wouldn't work?

 

And what's the obsession with piling!?

Why do people stick to it like magnets even if it's in the most inappropriate place? 

Inside of tight bends..

Outside of tight bends..

Practically in the bloody bridge hole..

 

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

And what's the obsession with piling!?

Why do people stick to it like magnets even if it's in the most inappropriate place? 

Inside of tight bends..

Outside of tight bends..

Practically in the bloody bridge hole..

 

 

Lots of boaters seem to have acquired the idea piling is put there specifically for mooring against.

 

Therefore, if there's piling, its 'approved' mooring space.