Drive Plate Routine Replacement

[Alway Swilby]

Do people change their drive plates as a matter of course even if it is still working? I.E preventative maintenance. If so what interval would you suggest is good. Our Beta 43 with PRM 150 gearbox has now done getting on for 5000 hours of which approx 4500 have been for cruising with the other 500 idling to charge the batteries. Should I be looking to change it or should I just carry on regardless?

 

[StephenA]

We usually change ours when it fails (ours fails into a mode where it works but it's very noisy) and we also check if if we've got the gear box off for any reason.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Do people change their drive plates as a matter of course even if it is still working? I.E preventative maintenance. If so what interval would you suggest is good. Our Beta 43 with PRM 150 gearbox has now done getting on for 5000 hours of which approx 4500 have been for cruising with the other 500 idling to charge the batteries. Should I be looking to change it or should I just carry on regardless?

 

 

"Idling to charge batteries". Not good until that is the speed that gives the maximum charge rate. Why worry about oil grades if you are going to do that (general comment, not aimed at the OP).

[pearley]

5000 hours is about the time the drive plate in our B43 started making noises and so was replaced.

[Alway Swilby]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

"Idling to charge batteries". Not good until that is the speed that gives the maximum charge rate. Why worry about oil grades if you are going to do that (general comment, not aimed at the OP).

Maybe I should have said the engine running but not driving the propeller.

 

PS (derailing my own thread here!) Our alternator puts out 65 amps (at 24v) at idle when first started. Increasing the revs doesn't increase the amps.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Maybe I should have said the engine running but not driving the propeller.

 

PS (derailing my own thread here!) Our alternator puts out 65 amps (at 24v) at idle when first started. Increasing the revs doesn't increase the amps.

 

 

 

In that case, as long as the torsional out of balance forces are not excessive I withdraw my comment. You must have a large engine pulley.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

"Idling to charge batteries". Not good until that is the speed that gives the maximum charge rate. Why worry about oil grades if you are going to do that (general comment, not aimed at the OP).

I’m going to put my hand up 🙋‍♀️ 

Can you explain please, especially regards oil grades. 
 

I tend to charges at idle a

lot of the time, (for a number of reasons, including because I don’t think I charge any better with higher revs). What other than it taking possibly taking longer to charge is the downside then?

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Goliath said:

’m going to put my hand up 🙋‍♀️ 

Can you explain please, especially regards oil grades. 

 

 

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Alway Swilby said:

Do people change their drive plates as a matter of course even if it is still working? I.E preventative maintenance. If so what interval would you suggest is good. Our Beta 43 with PRM 150 gearbox has now done getting on for 5000 hours of which approx 4500 have been for cruising with the other 500 idling to charge the batteries. Should I be looking to change it or should I just carry on regardless?

 

I'm probably tempting fate here by commenting, but as an example on my boat we got it at 1100 hours on the meter and have now run it up to 9,200 hours without a whimper from the drive plate. It is regularly serviced (by me) and the gearbox oil changed every year (not sure if that has any relevance) but I'm of the mindset of 'if it ain't broke, etc'.

 

For those who have had drive plate failure, does it just go 'clunk' and the boat doesn't go any more? (a bit like a clutch plate on a car) or do you get a bit of warning to be able to get somewhere to get it fixed?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

11 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm probably tempting fate here by commenting, but as an example on my boat we got it at 1100 hours on the meter and have now run it up to 9,200 hours without a whimper from the drive plate. It is regularly serviced (by me) and the gearbox oil changed every year (not sure if that has any relevance) but I'm of the mindset of 'if it ain't broke, etc'.

 

For those who have had drive plate failure, does it just go 'clunk' and the boat doesn't go any more? (a bit like a clutch plate on a car) or do you get a bit of warning to be able to get somewhere to get it fixed?

My experience, I was possibly lucky, I got some clunky sounds and it didn’t want to work, particularly in reverse, but I could limp for a few hours over a couple of days to where I could sort it. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

Our share boat had a Beta engine and the plate was in need of replacement when the gearbox died, several years of pretty constant use of probably 50 hours a week, of 2500 a year

[MtB]

The drive plate on my Beta BD3 failed at 3,000 hours. This was about 15 years ago.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I assume a drive plate can only take so much abuse too. If someone’s been heavy handed with going into gear or changing quickly into reverse then it ain’t gonna help. 
 

I liken the drive plate to the bush cushions I once changed in the rear wheel of my motor bike, they’re there to take up the initial torque when powering forward (or reverse). 
 

 

[Tony Brooks]

48 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I’m going to put my hand up 🙋‍♀️ 

Can you explain please, especially regards oil grades. 
 

I tend to charges at idle a

lot of the time, (for a number of reasons, including because I don’t think I charge any better with higher revs). What other than it taking possibly taking longer to charge is the downside then?

 

Diesels are reputed to like to work hard, I think that tends to relate to the cylinder wall temperature as discussed in the oil thread. So for optimum engine life we need to work them hard but canal use tends not to do that, especially when the engine is run at idle for long periods. A narrow boat only demand around 3 to 4 hp at typical canal speed and that is similar or maybe a bit less than when the alternator is delivering maximum output, so it makes sense to charge at whatever speed gives the highest charging amps (see Away Sibley's answer above for a non-typical boat set up).  Unless you have lithium batteries very soon after starting the charging amps will start to drop so there is no point in keeping the revs high so reduce them. Again, typically at the start the speed will be about 1200 to 1500 rpm and after a couple of hours it will be down to idle. 

 

Doing the above will also produce the maximum waste heat so giving a faster heat up to any calorifier.

 

The other factor, that Beta warn against on certain engine configurations, is that the torsional and speed oscillation at idle can cause mechanical damage to the pulley fixings (new crankshaft anyone) and also to the alternator so keeping the speed high during high charge rates helps mitigate this.

 

If, like Away Sibley you have an engine with a very high alternator drive ratio it may well give maximum charge at idle, but then the chances are the engine will not be a type that is now typical and the alternator is likely to be small. The danger from torsional oscillation is still present but you may be driving the alternator from the flywheel so it's fixings will be very robust and unlikely to fail. Even so running at higher speed will make the engine produce marginally more power than at idle.

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The other factor, that Beta warn against on certain engine configurations, is that the torsional and speed oscillation at idle can cause mechanical damage to the pulley fixings (new crankshaft anyone) and also to the alternator so keeping the speed high during high charge rates helps mitigate this.

 

 

I can't help thinking that those particular Beta engine configurations aren't fit-for-purpose if vibrations when idling ends up wearing the engine prematurely. 

 

To quote your own logic, why worry about oil grades if you've got an engine that can't be set to idle? 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

To quote your own logic, why worry about oil grades if you've got an engine that can't be set to idle? 

that was the bit I wanted explaining 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

I assume a drive plate can only take so much abuse too. If someone’s been heavy handed with going into gear or changing quickly into reverse then it ain’t gonna help. 
 

I liken the drive plate to the bush cushions I once changed in the rear wheel of my motor bike, they’re there to take up the initial torque when powering forward (or reverse). 
 

 

That is pretty much my take on it (whether right or wrong). Whenever changing from forward to astern I always give the gearbox a few seconds to settle before re-engaging (unless it's an absolute emergency and I need lots of reverse.....like now!!).

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

That is pretty much my take on it (whether right or wrong). Whenever changing from forward to astern I always give the gearbox a few seconds to settle before re-engaging (unless it's an absolute emergency and I need lots of reverse.....like now!!).

yea, and there’s the coupling to consider too when going to and fro without pause for thought 👍

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I can't help thinking that those particular Beta engine configurations aren't fit-for-purpose if vibrations when idling ends up wearing the engine prematurely. 

 

To quote your own logic, why worry about oil grades if you've got an engine that can't be set to idle? 

I agree about the fitness for purpose of those engines.

 

I never said that they could not be set or run at idle, what I did say is that for engine longevity it would be best to load the engine as much as reasonably possible. All engines should be able to be set to run at the manufacturer's/mariniser's idle speed, the question is how wise it is to do that for long periods.

 

I could have gone on to explain that one particular type of piston ring needs gas pressure to twist it so it formas a better seal but as we do not know if a particular engine uses that type of ring I saw no reason to go into it, but that is another reason to load the engine when you can.

 

Anyway, I have explained it as I understand things so if what I say does not seem logical or practical then please feel free to ignore it and do what seems right to you.

 

You seem to imply I said the oil specification was important when in fact I said that I am relaxed about oil grades and types as long as the engine is well run in and the API and SAE specs were no too far away from the recommendations. It was others who said they had other views.

 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

43 minutes ago, Goliath said:

yea, and there’s the coupling to consider too when going to and fro without pause for thought 👍

That's the beauty of boating, isn't it, everything can be done nice and slow (except when you meet the other boat in a bridge hole😱). It's the same when clearing weed from the prop, I'll knock it into neutral and drift for a boat length or so to see if that shifts it before putting it into reverse.

 

I think you just get a 'feel' for what is comfortable for the boat (says he before his drive plate fails on the next outing!). I was down below doing something else when a 'heritage' boat was maneuvering nearby (speedwheel and stuff) and I heard him change from forward drive instantly to reverse with a distinct 'Chunck' as it engaged and I simply said 'Ouch, that hurt'.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Wanderer Vagabond

[magnetman]

23 minutes ago, Goliath said:

yea, and there’s the coupling to consider too when going to and fro without pause for thought 👍

Also the morse cables. They are good but not infallible and if they do fail it can be quite nasty.

A number of yars ago there was an incident with one of the probably about 100 ton tripper boats at Windsor. The skipper was a bit gung-ho about it all and entered the lock too quickly then when he went to go astern the cable failed and the boat hit the top gate hard. Single lever control is bad here because you are accelerating when you think it is in reverse because you didn't realise the gear control cable had failed. 

When navigating a powered boat of any significant weight I will always disengage the drive well in advance of the intended stopping point. Just to make sure the controls are working. If they aren't the worst thing that can happen is you just drift along slowly and stop or you have time to get to the engine and put the gearbox in neutral  manually.   If they are working ok then you can feel confident and carry on slowly and do the job.

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by magnetman
Edit to remove racist sex references

[blackrose]

26 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I never said that they could not be set or run at idle, what I did say is that for engine longevity it would be best to load the engine as much as reasonably possible. All engines should be able to be set to run at the manufacturer's/mariniser's idle speed, the question is how wise it is to do that for long periods.

 

Just for clarity, I never suggested that you said they could not be set or run at idle. I knew exactly what you meant as you stated that clearly in your first post on the subject.

 

I'm afraid that running in idle for long periods is just a fact of life for many canal boaters these days as they plod past the long lines of moored boats, so it doesn't really come down to wisdom as many have no choice. Anyway, there's nothing in any of my engine manuals about not doing so I'll assume it's ok.

Edited January 1, 2023 by blackrose

[magnetman]

As long as the engine gets to its correct operating temperature it seems okay. There were some problems with excessive smoke on the beta marine versions of the 3 cylinder tractor engines being run too slow but they were not all that common. I think it was the BD3 (ford) and maybe the JD3 (John Deere) engines which had the issues. 

 

Be careful with advising people not to run engines without load otherwise we get back to the old lister air cooled advice about running in gear when stationary for charging batteries. This  ends up with destroyed canal banks and undermined piling. 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

10 minutes ago, magnetman said:

As long as the engine gets to its correct operating temperature it seems okay. There were some problems with excessive smoke on the beta marine versions of the 3 cylinder tractor engines being run too slow but they were not all that common. I think it was the BD3 (ford) and maybe the JD3 (John Deere) engines which had the issues. 

 

Be careful with advising people not to run engines without load otherwise we get back to the old lister air cooled advice about running in gear when stationary for charging batteries. This  ends up with destroyed canal banks and undermined piling. 

 

 

 

I ain’t no engine expert but that is something I tend to do before leaving it in idle, I get the engine up to temperature.

And with the cost of diesel I hate charging batteries while stationary,

but sometimes that’s the way it has to be

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Goliath

[magnetman]

How do you "get it up to temperature"? (ETA I see you mean you run it in gear) If the cooling system and thermostat arrangement are correct for the installation then a water cooled engine (of reasonable size) will get up to temperature once it is running regardless of engine speed. 

 

I think this might be an inadequate cooling system story. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by magnetman