Starter battery question

[magnetman]

If it was me I would forget about the electric side and just try to get the engine going reliably. It is designed in such a way that you could have no wire or batteries and you can still use the engine. The starter motor is a convenience not a requirement. 

 

Fuel, good compression and it should work although at this time of year may need the starter cigarettes. Is there definitely not a tin of them somewhere in the boat?

 

If engine is running properly then you deal with the electrics. 

 

The fact the engine had a new starter motor is not a particularly good sign. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If it was me I would forget about the electric side and just try to get the engine going reliably. It is designed in such a way that you could have no wire or batteries and you can still use the engine. The starter motor is a convenience not a requirement. 

 

Fuel, good compression and it should work although at this time of year may need the starter cigarettes. Is there definitely not a tin of them somewhere in the boat?

 

If engine is running properly then you deal with the electrics. 

 

The fact the engine had a new starter motor is not a particularly good sign. 

 

 

 

I agree with all that. Perhaps the OP could post a video of him trying to start with each engine (old & new) in turn so we might be able to judge the cranking speed and thus get some idea of the compression.

[magnetman]

The old starter was probably a service exchange so won't be on the boat. 

 

I'm not sure about these engines. If they were designed to be started with the 'cigarettes' when cold this could lead to people who don't have the cigarettes overcranking with starter in order to get engine going which could have some negative effects. 

 

Obviously it will wear the starter motor and cane the battery but could also cause lubrication problems about the piston rings. 

 

I've never needed to try it but have heard that a kettle or two of boiling water poured over the top of the engine can help with this sort of thing. Make sure it doesn't get in the air inlet. 

 

Disconnect electrics first and if it all goes bang and you die don't come running to me and complain. 

 

The engine wants to be preheated I think. 

Warm air into the air intake can be interesting as well but without mains electric that would have to be a blow torch which would be rather awkward. 

Edited January 2, 2023 by magnetman

[MtB]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

The engine wants to be preheated I think. 

 

 

A blowlamp flame waved around the air intake during cranking starts most old, reluctant diesels in my experience. 

 

Don't try this if it has a paper or oil bath air inlet filter!

 

 

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

I've never needed to try it but have heard that a kettle or two of boiling water poured over the top of the engine can help with this sort of thing.

Done that. Except the canal was frozen and the back cabin slide was frozen shut, and the water pipes in the undercloth conversion were frozen. It was very cold. So:

1. Break ice on the canal with the boat pole.

2. Scoop up canal water in a saucepan and put on the gas stove.

3. Dribble warm water over the back cabin slide until it can be opened.

4. Light back cabin stove.

5. (Next morning). Fail to start engine with the electric start ( hand start not working).

6. Dribble kettlefuls of hot water over the cylinder heads, until warm to the touch.

7.  Try to start engine again with flagging battery. Fortunately it caught on what must have almost been the battery's dieing gasp.

Edited January 2, 2023 by David Mack

[magnetman]

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

Done that. Except the canal was frozen and the back cabin slide was frozen shut, and the water pipes in the undercloth conversion were frozen. It was very cold. So:

1. Break ice on the canal with the boat pole.

2. Scoop up canal water in a saucepan and put on the gas stove.

3. Dribble warm water over the back cabin slide until it can be opened.

4. Light back cabin stove.

5. (Next morning). Fail to start engine with the electric start ( hand start not working).

6. Dribble kettlefuls of hot water over the cylinder heads, until warm to the touch.

7.  Try to start engine again with flagging battery. Fortunately it caught on what must have almost been the battery's dieing gasp.

 

Was that pre the BS scheme? One could have one's gas bottles inside the boat to avoid the regulator freezing. A couple of yars ago I had a dodgy propane regulator (new one) which froze in the open position. When I opened the cooker gas valve there was a LOT of gas and some liquid coming out of the burner. Effectively the regulator had let the high pressure side win the day. This would have been somewhat displeasing had I already applied a match or had a self igniting cooker. Fortunately neither happened and I changed the regulator over as had a spare (different make). There were some dodgy propane regulators floating about. This one didn't do much floating when jettisoned in disgust into wonderful Thames. .

 

 

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Was that pre the BS scheme? One could have one's gas bottles inside the boat to avoid the regulator freezing. A couple of yars ago I had a dodgy propane regulator (new one) which froze in the open position. When I opened the cooker gas valve there was a LOT of gas and some liquid coming out of the burner. Effectively the regulator had let the high pressure side win the day. This would have been somewhat displeasing had I already applied a match or had a self igniting cooker. Fortunately neither happened and I changed the regulator over as had a spare (different make). There were some dodgy propane regulators floating about. This one didn't do much floating when jettisoned in disgust into wonderful Thames. .

 

 

Nope. Around 20 years ago. The one thing that did work was the gas system, otherwise we'd have had no way of heating the water.

Edited January 3, 2023 by David Mack

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Nope. Around 20 years ago. The one thing that did work was the gas system, otherwise we'd have had no way of heating the water.

I have issues with the BS scheme as it became a legal requirement the same year I started living on boats. I take it personally.

[lxs602]

I managed to hand start it and get it back to Birmingham, which was a relief, and it is now moored near Cambrian wharf.

 

I put a few squirts of oil in through the cigarette-starter plug at the rear, as recommended here and in the manual, which I suppose might have helped. I did try some hot water over the cylinder, but probably not enough to have made a difference, as I had little available water.

 

 

On 02/01/2023 at 16:49, magnetman said:

If the holder for the starter "cigarette" were to become loose for some reason the engine would lose compression and either not run or run badly. It would be blowing exhaust past the fitting. If it is only very slightly loose it might not be obvious. 

 

May be worth checking ? It seems to be the hexagonal nut just above the alternator in this picture. 

 

Thanks for the suggestion. It was adequately tight.

 

On 30/12/2022 at 12:46, MtB said:

This stuff. One sprays a TINY quantity into the air intake to get a knackered diesel to start. 

 

Have you (the OP) seen a tin of this kicking about?

 

 

 

  

On 02/01/2023 at 17:22, magnetman said:

If it was me I would forget about the electric side and just try to get the engine going reliably. It is designed in such a way that you could have no wire or batteries and you can still use the engine. The starter motor is a convenience not a requirement. 

 

Fuel, good compression and it should work although at this time of year may need the starter cigarettes. Is there definitely not a tin of them somewhere in the boat?

 

If engine is running properly then you deal with the electrics. 

 

The fact the engine had a new starter motor is not a particularly good sign. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll need to try and get the leisure batteries charging as well though.

 

I didn't find any Easy Start or any starter cigarettes. I need to find what diameter I need, and somewhere to order them from. 

 

  

On 29/12/2022 at 16:29, PaulJ said:

@lxs602

Theres still  some manuals for your engine if it helps -available on the Sabb website - you  should find one here  https://www.frydenbo-industri.no/brukermanualer/fremdriftsmotor

If you are on facebook , join the small but perfectly formed (and very friendly) Sabb Owners Group where you should find the manual in the Files section

 

Thank you for the invitation. I signed up and tried to join the group yesterday, but I got an email from Facebook this morning saying my account had been suspended for breaching community standards. I have no idea why, as there was not much on there other than my name and date of birth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 29/12/2022 at 21:04, Tony Brooks said:

12.2V after a few attempts to start indicates the battery is about a true half charged (for battery longevity consider it fully discharged). I would expect a battery at 12.2V rested voltage to start a diesel. The readings I would want to see are as follows, all between the start battery positive and negative:

 

1. Battery voltage before attempting to start.

2. The voltage as you try to start it with the starter working. Expect a minimum of 10 volts but I find 9.5 is often OK.

3. The voltage soon after the engine is started and revved up. The voltmeter should jump up to above reading 1. I would expect around 13.5 or more and then gradually rising to around 14.2 to 14.4 volts as the battery charges.

 

 

I took readings again, with the engine on maximum revolutions. The voltage on the batteries didn't move at all, still at 12.2V for the leisure batteries, and I can't remember what value for the starter, but no increase.

 

  

On 02/01/2023 at 13:37, Tony Brooks said:

You say you have looked at my website. Have you methodically done the voltage checks shown in the electrical notes, starter circuit testing? If so please list the results. I am particularly interested in the battery pos to starter main terminal while cranking, and the same for battery neg to starter case, because they should identify any excess volt drop.

 

I tried working through the checks. It says to "operate the stop control", but I'm not sure which control this would be. I also seem not to have a few controls in the diagram in the Instruction Booklet. If anyone here who knows Sabb engines could tell me what would correspond to the stop control?

  

On 02/01/2023 at 16:48, Tony Brooks said:

Just noticed that what looks like the dip stick does not appear to be fully pushed home, I wonder if excess back pressure in the crankcase pops it up. If so a suggestion that the engine may not be in the best of condition.

 

Do you mean this (circled)? It is not movable on my engine. Is the hex nut below it unscrewed to check it? This was a question I was going to ask on the Facebook Sabb user's group.

  

On 31/12/2022 at 10:56, MtB said:

Hmmm. 

 

i wonder if the OP has run the engine for dozens of hours on end  with no lube and the rocker bearings have worn excessively, and opened up too big a valve clearance. 

 

I bought the boat two weeks ago, so I can't really say from before then. I have run it for about 30 hours so far getting from Coventry to Birmingham.

 

  

On 02/01/2023 at 13:37, Tony Brooks said:

We have yet to see a photo of the starter motors and alternator, some Saabs used a dynostart so until we identify what you have anything I say is very tentative.

I have attached a lot more photos. I will take more tomorrow if I have missed anything.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by lxs602

[PaulJ]

47 minutes ago, lxs602 said:

 

I didn't find any Easy Start or any starter cigarettes. I need to find what diameter I need, and somewhere to order them from. 

Sleeman and Hawken will probably have them

 

47 minutes ago, lxs602 said:

 

Do you mean this (circled)? It is not movable on my engine. Is the hex nut below it unscrewed to check it? This was a question I was going to ask on the Facebook Sabb user's group.

 

Cap below dipstick is for access for pumping out the engine oil . 

[MtB]

Thanks for the pictures but can we have some more from a lot further back please? 

 

In principle, closeups of detail are of limited help without an overview of the whole thing we are looking at. We can then zoom in ourselves to see detail of parts of particular interest. 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, lxs602 said:

It says to "operate the stop control", but I'm not sure which control this would be.

It's the knob or lever you pull to stop the engine. [You're not stopping the engine using the decompressor I hope].

[MtB]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

It's the knob or lever you pull to stop the engine. [You're not stopping the engine using the decompressor I hope].

 

Bad practice I agree, but I'm never sure why...

 

 

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Bad practice I agree, but I'm never sure why...

 

presumably because the slowing engine continues to pump fuel at the maximum rate into the cylinder. The unburnt fuel washes oil from the bores and contaminates the oil.

[Bee]

That wiring looks like the sort of horrible mess that I have been known to do before i knew better.

[magnetman]

Boat spaghetti. 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

presumably because the slowing engine continues to pump fuel at the maximum rate into the cylinder. The unburnt fuel washes oil from the bores and contaminates the oil.

Possibly.

 

The batteries are obviously not being charged, not surprising with that mess of a wiring loom.  You will never get that to be reliable. Its also a fire risk.

You may be better rewiring the alternator to the engine battery and getting that to charge first now that you can start the engine on the hand start. Progress from there.

[lxs602]

11 hours ago, David Mack said:

It's the knob or lever you pull to stop the engine. [You're not stopping the engine using the decompressor I hope].

 

Do you mean the throttle (circled below)? I have been lifting it to minimum revolutions from when the engine stops.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, lxs602 said:

 

Do you mean the throttle (circled below)? I have been lifting it to minimum revolutions from when the engine stops.

 

 

 

Is that a mains electric plug / socket you have sitting in the engine hole ?

[lxs602]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Is that a mains electric plug / socket you have sitting in the engine hole ?

 

Yes, it is not connected to anything though. There is also a 240V inverter, but it is also disconnected.

Edited January 11, 2023 by lxs602

[Tony Brooks]

19 hours ago, lxs602 said:

Do you mean this (circled)? It is not movable on my engine. Is the hex nut below it unscrewed to check it? This was a question I was going to ask on the Facebook Sabb user's group.

 

I mean this on your image - blue arrow

 

 

It may or may not be the dipstick, but I can't think what else will emerge from a tube in the crankcase with what looks lie a rubber seal aorund it.

 

19 hours ago, lxs602 said:

tried working through the checks. It says to "operate the stop control", but I'm not sure which control this would be. I also seem not to have a few controls in the diagram in the Instruction Booklet. If anyone here who knows Sabb engines could tell me what would correspond to the stop control?

 

It is whatever you pull, push, or energize to stop the engine. If you simply push your throttle to beyond the slow idle position then do that or loosen the big nut on the injector.

 

19 hours ago, lxs602 said:

I took readings again, with the engine on maximum revolutions. The voltage on the batteries didn't move at all, still at 12.2V for the leisure batteries, and I can't remember what value for the starter, but no increase.

 

I am sure the alternator or its wiring is faulty, But please note that it LOOKS as if (that does not mean it is so) that the alternator regulator has been modified for an external regulator. There is what looks like a thin black wire coming out of it where there should be no cables on a standard alternator.

 

There is no dynostart so it looks as if you have a Lucas A127 alternator and Bosch starter motor.

 

The  Very short able from the starter motor solenoid output stud looks very odd to me. I should have black plastic insulation going into a nest black rubber "bush". Yours looks like a load of black gunky stuff. No idea what it is or what it is there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I mean this on your image - blue arrow

 

 

It may or may not be the dipstick, but I can't think what else will emerge from a tube in the crankcase with what looks lie a rubber seal aorund it.

 

 

It is whatever you pull, push, or energize to stop the engine. If you simply push your throttle to beyond the slow idle position then do that or loosen the big nut on the injector.

 

 

 

 

There is no dynostart so it looks as if you have a Lucas A127 alternator and Bosch starter motor.

 

The  Very short able from the starter motor solenoid output stud looks very odd to me. I should have black plastic insulation going into a nest black rubber "bush". Yours looks like a load of black gunky stuff. No idea what it is or what it is there.

 

 

 

 

That is an A127 alternator and Bosch starter as you say Tony. Appalling dangerous wiring.

That starter motor tail is covered in black silicone sealer I think.  

You are in for a mountain of work with this boat if you want to keep it and use it without daily breakdowns. I hope you paid very little for it, no I don't want to know how much at all.

 

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

[pig]

In the picture of the alternator pulley, the belt looks really slack to me....

[magnetman]

I'd be tempted to take the batteries out and rewire it with something like this 

 

1 hour ago, pig said:

In the picture of the alternator pulley, the belt looks really slack to me....

Well spotted 

 

 

Nothing is going to happen there is it. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by magnetman
Typo

[David Mack]

On 11/01/2023 at 01:35, MtB said:

 

Bad practice I agree, but I'm never sure why...

 

 

I was told that if you open the decompressor at the wrong point in the cycle burning fuel will pass through the valve, and doing so repeatedly will damage the valve/seat.