First Step Towards the Cut

[PD1964]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

An observation.  I have known several American couples who had/have boats in the UK. With respect, none of them had any idea what it was like boating over here when the started out and they all made big mistakes about what they NEEDED to enjoy boating on the canals. Eventually they got it right or nearly so, some gave up and sold their expensive new build boats at a staggering loss because they were not what anyone else wanted in a boat.

You sound exactly like most of them.

  He’ll probably have quite a few expensive second hand boats to pick from next year, when all the 1st time owners had their new expensive boats built after the first lockdown realise it’s different to what they’ve seen on YouTube. As like the Americans you mention they only experienced it through YouTube. Most have probably had a reality check by now and are either moored up full time in a posh Marina or the boat will be for sale after the summer.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

An observation.  I have known several American couples who had/have boats in the UK. With respect, none of them had any idea what it was like boating over here when the started out and they all made big mistakes about what they NEEDED to enjoy boating on the canals. Eventually they got it right or nearly so, some gave up and sold their expensive new build boats at a staggering loss because they were not what anyone else wanted in a boat.

 

To be fair - having a narrowboat on a UK canal is not like boating for the majority of UK boaters.

 

Having a Narrowboat on the canal system is unlike anything anywhere in the world, it is unique and why so many overseas visitors come and hire a boat just for the novelty of it - a very small number love it and end up buying one, but many 'put up' with it for the holiday and say, "it was interesting but I could not spend much time in a 6' square tube".

 

WE love both canal boating and 'normal' boating and have done both for over 40 years, they are very very different disciplines in the wide world of boating and not liking one of them is not the end of the world (unless you have committed all of your money)

 

The OP will get some idea by hiring for a couple of weeks, but a far better introdution to extended living on a NB could be had by having a longterm hire of 3 or 6 months, he will then find about carrying gas cylinders down the towpath, refueling, topping up water, emptying the toilet, and, the space confinement on a rainy cold November** day.

 

** Assuming of course that the hire period include November.

 

These folks do 'legal ' long term hires (many are illegal, under the counter hires)

 

Escape the Rat Race (etrr.co.uk)

 

A around £1000 per month it is not an unreasonable amount - a weekly hire could be as much as £1000 from other 'short-hire' companies.

 

Whether you are looking for a longer term Narrowboat holiday, or to live on a narrowboat permanently, we can serve you. We have a diverse fleet of narrowboats, at a far lower cost than long term holiday hire. Bookings range from 3 months upward.

• Perhaps you're visiting Great Britain for a few months, newly retired, or would like to try things out while deciding whether to 'liveaboard' permanently.
• Perhaps you want to live on a narrow boat but without the hassle of maintaining or investing in a boat of your own.
• Perhaps you've enjoyed narrowboat rental holidays in the past, but would like to spend time enjoying Britain's huge canal network over a number of months.
• Maybe you have a narrowboat of your own but would like to invest this with our management service.

Our service is fully legal. Our canal boats are properly insured and licensed, as well as being professionally prepared and maintained. We provide you with everything you need to enjoy your cruise. Our fee covers this care.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Cheese said:

Perhaps look for a hire company with a number of boats with different layouts. And do a deal with them to hire 3 or 4 over successive weeks?  That could give you some ideas of what suits you on that front. But it won't address the issues that don't arise much on hire boats: pump-out/cassette, battery management, maintenance, supplies, etc

I would certainly recommend trying out several different hire boats to see what works for you and what doesn't -- the advantages and disadvantages are not always obvious until you actually live with them, even for a week.

 

Buying a second-hand boat lets you try one particular boat design in depth, and this often means the grass appears greener on the other side without having tried the alternatives.

 

Toilets are a whole other dustbinful of worms... 😉

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[mrsmelly]

10 hours ago, Jimbo435 said:

Exactly.  I learned that in designing my houses.  Everything is a tradeoff.  I was just explaining to my wife not an hour ago when she said "I really want a nice well deck and a cratch cover"  I explained some of the tradeoffs of that: loss of space elsewhere, reduces security, the need for access eliminating options in the bedroom (in a reverse layout), etc.  And that is what I don't know not doing it for days on end, is exactly what the tradeoffs are.  

My two penneth is.................We lived aboard for over thirty years until last year. We lived on 8 different boats. Boats are a bit like cars, to sum up, a 19 year old with a girlfriend ( can I say that these days? ) can have a great time in an MX5 for instance. When he is 29 with 3 kids and a dog, the MX5 is useless other than a second car toy. Your views and needs and wants change over the years. As everyone else has said DEFFO buy a used one first and then you will have some idea of what you want. Many go for the 57 foot go anywhere boat ( we did ) but many of those never even go where the short 57 foot is needed. We did for first few years then bought full length and a bit less boats which were humungously better in every way, we simply missed out the small amount oop norf, been there done it. Actualy long term hire would be my choice in your shoes. Its a bit of a minefield. If you do go for long term hire. pm me, I have a personal friend with a LEGITIMATE long term hire business which may be of help to you.

[OldGoat]

Please be aware that -

• England is small and the area(s) where you can cruise are even smaller,
• The areas where you can move the boat from one canal to another are even smaller
• The boats are / can be cramped when compared with any RV that you know and the facilitues within are certainly very basic when compared with anything in the US.
• As the boats are narrow - so are the 'best' canals for cruising - broad canals and rivers
•  are only a tad wider.

Contgrarywise the scenery can be beutiful, the natives often friendly and helpful and the journey  from one 'place to visit' to another is achevable if you have enough time.

 

If you haven't already hows about -

looking at some of the canal videos on YouTube for information about and from of those who cruise the system a lot, not only for their journeys but for the boat layouts as well. There's one particular broker who presents his boats well and his listings may help in dedciiding what layout to go for.

 

That's probably enough for starters....

[cuthound]

If I were the OP I would hire several different boats to see what stern type he prefers, trad, semi-trad or cruiser.

 

Then when (if) he finally commissions a new boat he will get the stern he prefers. Other than the shell everything else can be changed (at a cost).

 

There are so many little details that make for better or easier boating, and with several long hires he will see most of these on other boats and be in a better position to decide what he prefers on his eventual new boat.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[IanD]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

If I were the OP I would hire several different boats to see what stern type he prefers, trad, semi-trad or cruiser.

 

Then when (if) he finally commissions a new boat hewill.gwt the stern he prefers. Other than the shell everything else can be changed (at a cost).

 

There are so many little details that make for better or easier boating, and with several long hires he will see most of these on other boats and be in a better position to decide what he prefers on his eventual new boat.

 

 

The same applies to internal layouts -- traditional or one of the many flavours of "reverse" (bedroom at front). Depending on what your priorities are, how many people are on the boat "full-time" and how many as guests, different people have very different preference -- there's no such thing as "right" or "wrong", what matters is what works for you.

 

If you are having a boat built then you can go for something which best suits *you* (not other people!) even though it may be not available on hire boats and rare in second-hand boats -- for example I chose a reverse layout with no well deck and a semi-trad stern with a bike locker/steerer's seat, because that suits me 🙂

 

But if you're going to do this (and spend a *lot* of money doing it!) you need to be confident that you've made the right informed choice, not just been swayed by a persuasive blog or salesman, and the only way to be sure is to have tried several different boats to work out what does and doesn't work for you.

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The same applies to internal layouts -- traditional or one of the many flavours of "reverse" (bedroom at front). Depending on what your priorities are, how many people are on the boat "full-time" and how many as guests, different people have very different preference -- there's no such thing as "right" or "wrong", what matters is what works for you.

 

If you are having a boat built then you can go for something which best suits *you* (not other people!) even though it may be not available on hire boats and rare in second-hand boats -- for example I chose a reverse layout with no well deck and a semi-trad stern with a bike locker/steerer's seat, because that suits me 🙂

 

But if you're going to do this (and spend a *lot* of money doing it!) you need to be confident that you've made the right informed choice, not just been swayed by a persuasive blog or salesman, and the only way to be sure is to have tried several different boats to work out what does and doesn't work for you.

 

Indeed, our first shareboat (and almost all of the boats that I have hired in the 70's and 80's) had conventional rear bedroom/centre galley layouts.

 

I specifically chose a rear galley/centre bedroom layout for our second shareboat.

 

Both suited us best at that time in our lives.

 

When we finally bought our own boat we went for a conventional layout, as it suited us best for our retirement.

 

There is no substitute for actually trying different sterns and internal layouts to see if they suit you and also to be aware that requirements change when you have young or teenage children and whether or not you cruise with guests.

[Tonka]

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The same applies to internal layouts -- traditional or one of the many flavours of "reverse" (bedroom at front). Depending on what your priorities are, how many people are on the boat "full-time" and how many as guests, different people have very different preference -- there's no such thing as "right" or "wrong", what matters is what works for you.

 

If you are having a boat built then you can go for something which best suits *you* (not other people!) even though it may be not available on hire boats and rare in second-hand boats -- for example I chose a reverse layout with no well deck and a semi-trad stern with a bike locker/steerer's seat, because that suits me 🙂

 

But if you're going to do this (and spend a *lot* of money doing it!) you need to be confident that you've made the right informed choice, not just been swayed by a persuasive blog or salesman, and the only way to be sure is to have tried several different boats to work out what does and doesn't work for you.

Put the op down for first refusal on your list when your boat is up for sale in a year.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Put the op down for first refusal on your list when your boat is up for sale in a year.

Care to place a bet? 😉

[Tonka]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

Care to place a bet? 😉

Bet the first owners of Whitfield and loads of other boats that have been in the magazines said the same thought the same thing

[IanD]

34 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Bet the first owners of Whitfield and loads of other boats that have been in the magazines said the same thought the same thing

Bet they hadn't been hiring boats for 40 years and spent more than a year thinking about the design -- what they did had many blindingly obvious disadvantages, whether you like the style or not...

 

I'm confident I've made the right decisions *for me*. I might be wrong, but there's only one way to find out... 😉

[Jimbo435]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 -- for example I chose a reverse layout with no well deck and a semi-trad stern with a bike locker/steerer's seat, because that suits me 🙂

This feels like what we may end up with.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

- for example I chose a reverse layout with no well deck and a semi-trad stern with a bike locker/steerer's seat, because that suits me 🙂

 

 

I don't think that will ever catch on or win a prize at Crick!

[Jimbo435]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you a US citizen ?

Are you allowed to come into the UK for 6 months at a time ? 

 

Have you read the threads from some of our overses boat owners who this year (due to chages in the insurance industry) have not been able to secure insurance unless their primary address is in the UK and they are UK citizens.

 

Maybe a good idea to check out the 'paperwork' before committing to any costs.

Looks like this may be the killer.  Just contacted the company that the Aussies used.  Their T&Cs have changed.  A Resident is no longer based on length of time in the UK, and now requires an address and a bank account.  I might have a way to get around that, but it's not looking good.  So long term rental and gritted teeth here we come.  Pretty sure we won't be able to find a long term rental we will love, but who knows.

 

Thanks for all your feedback.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I don't think that will ever catch on or win a prize at Crick!

 

I don't care... 😉

[Tacet]

Used is the way to go, as many have said.

 

Cheaper, of course but the essential problem with narrowboats is that compromise is necessary due to dimensional issues.  You step on a boat - and it has a fancy kitchen or bathroom or additional bedroom which you would like to include in your design - and a few minutes later it dawns on you that the necessary space has been obtained by omitting the dinette or whatever.  There are also some problems in combination - a trad stern and a reverse layout don't work well together.

 

By all means set out a wish-list and try to meet the most important in a used boat.  And go from there based on experience  - or stick with what you have.

 

[Jimbo435]

Just now, IanD said:

 

I don't care... 😉

Agreed, my dad used to say: If you're worried about resale value, then you might as well live someone elses life too.

 

1 minute ago, Tacet said:

Used is the way to go, as many have said.

 

Cheaper, of course but the essential problem with narrowboats is that compromise is necessary due to dimensional issues.  You step on a boat - and it has a fancy kitchen or bathroom or additional bedroom which you would like to include in your design - and a few minutes later it dawns on you that the necessary space has been obtained by omitting the dinette or whatever.  There are also some problems in combination - a trad stern and a reverse layout don't work well together.

 

By all means set out a wish-list and try to meet the most important in a used boat.  And go from there based on experience  - or stick with what you have.

 

Thanks.  I really had my heart set on a hybrid, but maybe I'll get lucky and find one used, or a quiet, easier to maintain diesel.

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Jimbo435 said:

Looks like this may be the killer.  Just contacted the company that the Aussies used.  Their T&Cs have changed.  A Resident is no longer based on length of time in the UK, and now requires an address and a bank account.  I might have a way to get around that, but it's not looking good.  So long term rental and gritted teeth here we come.  Pretty sure we won't be able to find a long term rental we will love, but who knows.

 

Thanks for all your feedback.

 

Better to find out now.

 

But Just think - you could 'longterm' hire (say 3 boats at 2 month each per year) for 20 years and still not have spent as much as you would buying your own. Yes you wouldn't have a 20 year old depreciating asset, but neither would you have spent £1000's on maintenance, licencing, safety check etc etc.

 

You can walk away at any time, (when you change your mind completely, get bored or find a boat design you like and you can stick with it). It actually sounds quite a good option.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Used is the way to go, as many have said.

 

Cheaper, of course but the essential problem with narrowboats is that compromise is necessary due to dimensional issues.  You step on a boat - and it has a fancy kitchen or bathroom or additional bedroom which you would like to include in your design - and a few minutes later it dawns on you that the necessary space has been obtained by omitting the dinette or whatever.  There are also some problems in combination - a trad stern and a reverse layout don't work well together.

 

By all means set out a wish-list and try to meet the most important in a used boat.  And go from there based on experience  - or stick with what you have.

 

 

Given a clean sheet of paper, I literally spent the best part of a year on and off trying out different layouts and looking at what could be fitted in. Lots of ideas fell by the canalside, others turned out to be impractical for one reason or another, and there's *never* enough room to do everything you want -- hence going for 60' in the full knowledge that it would be tight in some Northern locks, but a couple of feet shorter meant losing something I really wanted, like cupboard space next to the dinette for guest's clothes. The number of boats which have a convertible dinette without this is surprising -- and annoying if you happen to be the guests... 😞

 

I ended up with (by maybe v25 of the layout...) something I'm happy with and meets *my* needs, others may want something different -- for example I specifically wanted a saloon which can be closed off from the dinette not open-plan, because quite often one of us is doing something noisy (watching TV, listening to music, practising an instrument) and the other wants to avoid the worst of the noise (reading, working on PC) -- and the same is true when we have a couple of guests, not everyone wants to do everything together all the time. Other people want an open-plan boat because it feels more spacious, which is absolutely fine for them.

 

Whatever you do there will be some compromises, the key is to find the best set that suit you --= or failing that, the least worst set... 😉

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

55 minutes ago, IanD said:

but a couple of feet shorter meant losing something I really wanted,

 

As a matter of interest where relative to the curve of the bow does your front bulkhead sit. One of the things I liked about  JennyB was there was no huge front gas tank/water tank/bow locker, just a small chain locker. The well deck was just long enough to sit two side by side on the locker seats. This allowed the front bulkhead to be well forward of the parallel hull part so the cabin sides curved inwards at the front. Add the three-cylinder engine and a not very long cruiser stern (with gas locker) and I am sure we had the accommodation of a 57 footer in a 54ft hull. I don't understand why many narrow boats waste space with the huge bow locker and a large well deck.

[Tony1]

 

It's a challenging and absolutely fascinating process trying to spec out what your priorities are for a new narrowboat, when you haven't yet spent time aboard one. 

 My ex partner was probably an extreme example. We both liked the look of narrowboat liveaboard life based on TV and youtube shows, but as soon as we tried a hire boat she went off the idea completely. So do bear in mind, it is always a possibility that one of you will simply not enjoy it as much as you hope and expect. 

 

Assuming you're both still feeling ok with the general idea of boating even after you've had a couple of holidays (in boats with different layouts), then you're in a position to do some more serious planning. 

 

One thing that struck me was that usually, boat decisions involve a compromise. 

For example, one of the biggest initial decisions is whether to go wide beam or narrowbeam. Most of us go narrowbeam for the extra travelling range it provides, and I'll assume-  since your emphasis is more on travelling than comfort and space- that you'll probably go for a narrowbeam.  

Another big decision is boat length. I initially thought 45ft would be great, as its a bit easier to get around tight and narrow bends, and you can find mooring spots that might be too small for a 70 footer. So there's the compromise between having greater length and space, versus smaller length and less space, but the boat being easier to get about in general. 

I got that one wrong, putting more emphasis on the boat being nippy and easier to navigate in smaller places. The reality is that you just learn to handle a longer boat, and it turns out not to be much hassle at all. 

It's easy to imagine yourself living in a small space, but the reality can be much more challenging than you ever expected. 

I bought a 50ft boat, but even for a single person I find storage space is a big challenge, so I'm assuming you'll be looking at a minimum length of 58-60ft, which gives a good compromise between decent length (and thus space), but still allowing access to most of the canals. 

70ft would be great for a couple tbh, but that will bar you from certain waterways, so there's a priority to be decided there. 

 

These are just a couple of very obvious examples of how you can think you are assigning the the right priority to a given issue initially, but the reality of boat living can totally change your opinion.

I would guess that about a third of the things you currently think are going to be an important issue or a problem, will probably turn out not to be any concern at all, once you have some hands on experience. But on the other hand a number of brand new concerns will arise that you didn't even foresee. 

 

Another question is how much solar you would like to have, bearing in mind that filling the roof with panels will leave little room for things like storage boxes, bikes, etc. 

Will you go for the once-per-decade purchase of lithium batteries, or the cheaper and simpler to manage option of lead acid batteries, which may have to be replaced every 3 to 4 years, and which will not take in the solar charge as efficiently as lithium batteries?   

Fortunately the forum members, as you no doubt will have seen, have collectively gathered a vast amount of knowledge and experience. 

I would advise some caution in assessing the wide range of opinions you will be given.

My sense is that some people try to champion their particular/favourite solution, to the extent that you may be slightly misled about how cheap/easy certain solutions are. 

If you proposed the idea of pulling you boat around with a horse, you'd probably find someone who would respond that horses were really simple, no worries, a great option, and that you couldn't possibly go wrong buying a horse, and that diesel engines were very overrated. 

Taking advice can be a bit of a minefield! 😄

 

[IanD]

44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

As a matter of interest where relative to the curve of the bow does your front bulkhead sit. One of the things I liked about  JennyB was there was no huge front gas tank/water tank/bow locker, just a small chain locker. The well deck was just long enough to sit two side by side on the locker seats. This allowed the front bulkhead to be well forward of the parallel hull part so the cabin sides curved inwards at the front. Add the three-cylinder engine and a not very long cruiser stern (with gas locker) and I am sure we had the accommodation of a 57 footer in a 54ft hull. I don't understand why many narrow boats waste space with the huge bow locker and a large well deck.

There's a small locker for the bow thruster and hose/rope storage, then the next three feet under the potter's cabin is deep clothes drawers that pull out into the bedroom with a stainless water tank underneath them -- so the effective bulkhead is only about 4' from the bows even though the cabin is 7' back, almost all the space is used. The front couple of feet of the cabin is tipped in very slightly to match the curve of the hull. Couldn't push anything any further forwards...

 

Same thought as you about wasted space in the bows. Also no need for seats there to get away from the engine noise, hence the semi-trad stern... 🙂

Edited July 18, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

If you proposed the idea of pulling you boat around with a horse, you'd probably find someone who would respond that horses were really simple, no worries, a great option, and that you couldn't possibly go wrong buying a horse, and that diesel engines were very overrated. 

Taking advice can be a bit of a minefield! 

 

My wife drives a horse and carriage (at a competitive county level) and one night we were discussing horse drawn boats and the Daughter In law (a real 'Towny') asked what will you do with the horse at night - will you leave it in the water and how will it sleep ?, After a bit of tittering (o' how we laughed) she then asked if its feet would go soft, pink and wrinkly from being in the water for so long, and then how do you lift it out of the water ?

 

Having a horse as your motive power is very simple, its just lifting it & out of the water thats difficult.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

There's a small locker for the bow thruster and hose/rope storage, then the next three feet under the potter's cabin is deep clothes drawers that pull out into the bedroom with a stainless water tank underneath them -- so the effective bulkhead is only about 4' from the bows even though the cabin is 7' back, almost all the space is used. The front couple of feet of the cabin is tipped in very slightly to match the curve of the hull. Couldn't push anything any further forwards...

 

Same thought as you about wasted space in the bows. Also no need for seats there to get away from the engine noise, hence the semi-trad stern... 🙂

Get a boat with a punt style front. Less wasted space