Hybrid drive conversion question

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Offering facilities on a service berth close to the marina entrance is one thing, but will offline marinas really want lots of overnight visitors navigating their way through half the marina to access a mooring that requires sliding into a narrow gap between a pontoon/jetty and another moored boat? Seems an easy way to piss off your permanent moorers!

I passed a boat club on he Aire and Calder, its visitor moorings are on the outside, they have installed electric bollards along the full length I think they thinking forward

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Offering facilities on a service berth close to the marina entrance is one thing, but will offline marinas really want lots of overnight visitors navigating their way through half the marina to access a mooring that requires sliding into a narrow gap between a pontoon/jetty and another moored boat? Seems an easy way to piss off your permanent moorers!

Maybe they will, maybe they won't, it's their decision. If they think the money pays for the hassle, they'll do it. If not, they won't.

[Tony Brooks]

24 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Offering facilities on a service berth close to the marina entrance is one thing, but will offline marinas really want lots of overnight visitors navigating their way through half the marina to access a mooring that requires sliding into a narrow gap between a pontoon/jetty and another moored boat? Seems an easy way to piss off your permanent moorers!

 

Whenever I have booked into a marina for a short stay that is exactly what they do. In fact I think the terms and conditions specifically allow them to do that.

[Tracy D'arth]

23 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Charging points -- at least, low-power AC ones -- can easily pay back their installation costs in a few years by selling the power with a profit margin, just like EV chargers do.

 

There's no reason hiring the boats should be more expensive once the construction/battery costs come down -- hire bases could install points and make money by selling the power.

They are only allowed to charge the same as their purchase price for power, plus maybe a small service provider charge.

[Tracy D'arth]

I got bored reading the same utopian comments on this thread so stopped part way.

 

But I would like to ask where is this bottomless electricity well that we are all going to tap for propulsion, heating, light, road transport, agriculture, steel making, rocket fuel to launch satellites, air travel, cruise liners, television, radio, computing, et al?

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

They are only allowed to charge the same as their purchase price for power, plus maybe a small service provider charge.

So about the huge number of EV charging points, all of which charge a large premium above the grid kWh price... 😉

 

Why do you think the same won't apply to EB charging points, since these are not actually covered by existing regulations? (residential ones at moorings are)

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I got bored reading the same utopian comments on this thread so stopped part way.

 

But I would like to ask where is this bottomless electricity well that we are all going to tap for propulsion, heating, light, road transport, agriculture, steel making, rocket fuel to launch satellites, air travel, cruise liners, television, radio, computing, et al?

 

So is your idea of a non-Utopian future one where we carry on burning fossil fuels, and every day in summer tops 40C like last week? How do you think we should solve this problem -- ignore it and hope it goes away?

 

Renewables. Nuclear (fission now, fusion later). There is a *lot* of available unused energy in periods of low demand (e.g. middle of the night), the National Grid has estimated that the extra cost to provide the extra power needed will only increase the cost of power provision in the next 50 years by a few percent (less than 10% IIRC). Suggest you go and look up the numbers yourself, since I'm sure you won't believe any I provide -- Google is your friend... 😉

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

So about the huge number of EV charging points, all of which charge a large premium above the grid kWh price... 😉

 

Why do you think the same won't apply to EB charging points, since these are not actually covered by existing regulations? (residential ones are)

Then according to what Offwat (sic)  told me they are breaking the law! Not that I give a damn, I will never have an electric vehicle, not even a mobility scooter. ( why do scooters have 2 wheels but mobility scooters have 3 or 4 or 6? )

Fortunately I will not live long enough to see the chaos when the all lights all go out because there is not enough power, in fact I may not even see next year so who the hell cares?

Meantime I will continue in my own sweet way, burning diesel and petrol, lighting coal fires to keep warm and burning my rubbish.

[IanD]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Then according to what Offwat (sic)  told me they are breaking the law! Not that I give a damn, I will never have an electric vehicle, not even a mobility scooter. ( why do scooters have 2 wheels but mobility scooters have 3 or 4 or 6? )

Fortunately I will not live long enough to see the chaos when the all lights all go out because there is not enough power, in fact I may not even see next year so who the hell cares?

Meantime I will continue in my own sweet way, burning diesel and petrol, lighting coal fires to keep warm and burning my rubbish.

 

Some of us care, even if you and some others on here don't... 😞

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Some of us care, even if you and some others on here don't... 😞

Actually Ian, sorry to shock you but I think I am in the majority with my views by a very long way, China, India, Indonesia etc.

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Some of us care, even if you and some others on here don't... 😞

 

I think that should read "some of us can afford to care and some others would like to afford to care but can't". there are others who simply don't care though.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Actually Ian, sorry to shock you but I think I am in the majority with my views by a very long way, China, India, Indonesia etc.

 

"I'm not changing because it's mainly other people's fault" is the excuse that every single country would like to use -- and if they all do, global heating will continue getting worse.

 

Since we're lacking a benevolent world government which understands this -- you know, a bit like the EU but bigger -- you can only change your own behaviour, and hope that everyone else does the same.

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that should read "some of us can afford to care and some others would like to afford to care but can't". there are others who simply don't care though.

When it's 40C every day and food and power prices go through the roof, how are the poor (with no air conditioning) going to cope?

 

Saying "but I can't afford to change" is basically sticking your head in the sand and hoping the problem will magically go away. It won't... 😞

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

They are only allowed to charge the same as their purchase price for power, plus maybe a small service provider charge.

 

I did post earlier (3 1/2 pages ago) a letter we got from Ofgem  (we are a reseller of electricity) that shows that the supply of electricity for vehicles is not capped, as per all other resellers.

 

This concession will no doubt soon be redacted when there is a lrge infratsructure installed and then the suppliers will be unable to charge premium prices to recoup theior investment and there will be no incentive to install further charging points.

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I did post earlier (3 1/2 pages ago) a letter we got from Ofgem  (we are a reseller of electricity) that shows that the supply of electricity for vehicles is not capped, as per all other resellers.

 

This concession will no doubt soon be redacted when there is a lrge infratsructure installed and then the suppliers will be unable to charge premium prices to recoup theior investment and there will be no incentive to install further charging points.

 

Why would it be redacted? The UK will need more and more charging points for at least the next 20 years, the government knows this, and allowing premium pricing is the only way to get these built -- unless the government decides to invest and roll out its own "UKpower" network. Which absolutely won't happen under this government, and possibly not any other one since they'd get monstered by the right-wing press for "wasting taxpayers money" -- ignoring the fact that cheaper EV charging would put money back into their pockets...

[Tony Brooks]

 

 

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

When it's 40C every day and food and power prices go through the roof, how are the poor (with no air conditioning) going to cope?

 

Saying "but I can't afford to change" is basically sticking your head in the sand and hoping the problem will magically go away. It won't... 😞

 

Says someone who can afford to get an expensive boat built for him. To be honest it seems very like the Torys who seem unable to comprehend how the poorer is society actually live.

 

The poor will either find a way to cope - just as they do now or die.

 

I think it is you who has your head in the sand by assuming everyone is able to afford EVs, Heatpumps, Solar PV, Solar hot water, insulation and so on. How can people who need to use foodbanks afford to find the £5000 for a heat pump, the £20,000 plus for an EV and so on.

 

[Tracy D'arth]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

Saying "but I can't afford to change" is basically sticking your head in the sand and hoping the problem will magically go away. It won't... 😞

But Ian, for many many of us the problem will go away, not magically but mortally. I do approve of your fervour but consider that to us real oldies or infirm souls  its just another load of hype about which we can do little.

A massive decrease in world population will be the ONLY solution long term. In this I can help, quite soon, in my own small way.

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

 

Says someone who can afford to get an expensive boat built for him. To be honest it seems very like the Torys who seem unable to comprehend how the poorer is society actually live.

 

The poor will either find a way to cope - just as they do now or die.

 

I think it is you who has your head in the sand by assuming everyone is able to afford EVs, Heatpumps, Solar PV, Solar hot water, insulation and so on. How can people who need to use foodbanks afford to find the £5000 for a heat pump, the £20,000 plus for an EV and so on.

 

 

Please stop suggesting that I either don't know or understand the plight that poor people are in -- I'm not stupid, neither am I a tax-evading Tory.

 

Today, they can't afford an EV or a heat pump. When EVs are cheaper (TCO) than ICEs, they will be able to -- at least, if they can afford a car at all. When a heatpump is cheaper (TCO) than a new gas boiler (which needs replacing anyway), they will switch -- or their landlord will.

 

There will always be poor people, and it should be part of the function of a healthy society to help them survive -- though the current government obviously doesn't believe that... 😞

13 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But Ian, for many many of us the problem will go away, not magically but mortally. I do approve of your fervour but consider that to us real oldies or infirm souls  its just another load of hype about which we can do little.

A massive decrease in world population will be the ONLY solution long term. In this I can help, quite soon, in my own small way.

I guess you don't have children who you care about, then? I'd certainly like mine -- and everyone else's -- not to be sweltering in 40+C heat with houses and crops on fire being the norm... 😞

 

I don't see any point discussing this any more, we're going round the same circular arguments as every other thread on the same subject...

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Tracy D'arth]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't see any point discussing this any more, we're going round the same circular arguments as every other thread on the same subject...

But you are the ring leader Ian!  🌼  🥵

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

But you are the ring leader Ian!  🌼  🥵

Which must make you the ring follower -- ooh, my precioussssss... 😉

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[cuthound]

17 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

Only if there is a bridge!

 

There is, so they don't lose custom but gain mooring fees from the long term moorers.

 

 

 

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

How many offside pubs are there that aren't by a bridge?

 

Well, the one at Ansty for a start (although it used to have one). ☹️

Edited July 25, 2022 by cuthound
To insert spaces between merged posts

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

Swerving off at a tangent, but a related tangent, how much does it actually cost to install a EB charging point?

 

Let's imagine a pub VM with space for two NBs. The pub already has a 3 phase supply into the building and two EB charging points are being considered, each of which will be 100ft from the pub building. Is it possible to do some 'finger in the air' estimates? 

 

Obviously 150-200ft of trenching then backfilling will be needed to pay the cable. Perhaps £2k at a guess. What hardware is needed at each end and what sort of cable would be needed? I'd guess the cable would cost another £2k and a couple of days' work for an electrician and mate to connect it up and install the canalside bollards, say another £1k. Would a standard 32A bollard be sufficient or is something more complicated needed? 

 

I guess the tricky bit is knowing the whether the cable supplying the pub is good enough for two x 32A bollards drawing each 30A all evening, at the same time as peak domestic demand on the supply running the pub. 

 

 

 

How long is a piece of string?

 

As well as the cost of the charger installation the cost will depend on the capacity of the pub supply and the local substation feeding it.

 

A very rough metric I used to get ball park figures 9 years ago was £1000 per kW.

 

It will be lower than this if the pub's extant supply has enough capacity and could cost a lot more if the local substation serves a wide area and needs to be upgraded.

Edited July 25, 2022 by cuthound
Clarification

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Whenever I have booked into a marina for a short stay that is exactly what they do. In fact I think the terms and conditions specifically allow them to do that.

Indeed they do. But at present the number of short stay visitors in marinas is pretty small, and those there are probably want to stay for several days - if you only wanted an overnight mooring most would stay on the towpath. But once there are a sizeable number of electric boats all needing a daily or two-daily overnight charge, the number of boats needing to access those remote but vacant moorings would significantly increase. Which will inevitably create more conflict with the permanent moorers.

[Paul C]

What do you mean “more conflict “? It doesn’t create any conflict currently, when a vacant marina mooring is temporarily used by a short term moorer.
 

Of course, I appreciate the need to recharge will create more demand and utilisation of this kind of arrangement, but it’s manageable and not too hard for marinas to adapt to cater for it, up to a point. Obviously some boaters will strongly resist going into a marina, or paying for a service, but they can choose to carry on with increasingly expensive diesel, at least in the short term.

[David Mack]

5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

What do you mean “more conflict “? It doesn’t create any conflict currently, when a vacant marina mooring is temporarily used by a short term moorer.

Being moored doesn't create a conflict. But moving through a marina where there are lots of boats moored end-on to the bank, then having to turn through 90 degrees to slide between a jetty/pontoon and another moored boat certainly has the potential. And maybe having to do the same in reverse to get out. Especially in those marinas where there always seems to be a cross wind confounding your efforts. And unlike the permanent moorers, the visitors will be unfamiliar with the marina layout. The potential for unintended collisions, and the bad feeling that creates, is significant.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

How long is a piece of string?

 

As well as the cost of the charger installation the cost will depend on the capacity of the pub supply and the local substation feeding it.

 

A very rough metric I used to get ball park figures 9 years ago was £1000 per kW.

 

It will be lower than this if the pub's extant supply has enough capacity and could cost a lot more if the local substation serves a wide area and needs to be upgraded.

 

I suspect that anywhere which needs a distribution substation upgrading won't get charging points -- though this is pretty unlikely, at least in urban areas they serve a few hundred houses each, so will be rated at perhaps a megawatt, so a few charging stations (or even quite a lot) at 7kW each won't make much difference. In rural areas pole-mounted transformers are smaller (25kVA to 100kVA), but adding or upgrading one (for example where the 11kV line crosses a canal) is not so expensive.

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD