Hybrid drive conversion question

[cuthound]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I suspect that anywhere which needs a distribution substation upgrading won't get charging points -- though this is pretty unlikely, at least in urban areas they serve a few hundred houses each, so will be rated at perhaps a megawatt, so a few charging stations (or even quite a lot) at 7kW each won't make much difference. In rural areas pole-mounted transformers are smaller (25kVA to 100kVA), but adding or upgrading one (for example where the 11kV line crosses a canal) is not so expensive.

 

As I have said before it depends on the load on the substation or pole mounted Tx.

 

When they are planned, they are typically anticipated load plus 25%.

 

Many have been in place for years, and every year the houses they supply increase the load as people get more electrical things, so the older ones may well be nearing capacity.

 

The DNO's (or whatever they are presently called) have to upgrade at their cost if their substations overload due to gradual load increase, but if a customer specifically requests a new or bigger supply they can charge.

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, IanD said:

In rural areas pole-mounted transformers are smaller (25kVA to 100kVA), but adding or upgrading one (for example where the 11kV line crosses a canal) is not so expensive.

 

In 2005 we had our house built in a "rural area" and the original pole mounted transformer that had supplied the hovel that was there previously barely coped with a TV and a kettle at the same time.

 

We needed a transformer upgrade.

 

Our electrician worked out what we needed and we had to apply for a new pole mounted transformer. The quote came in at £20,000 for the transformer and 200 metres of cabling (if we did all of the groundworks, running ducting and back filling ourselves).

 

I'd suggest that your statement 'not so expensive' is a matter of your view point -  installing a new transformer from scratch (having to instal an extra pole, build the cradle for the transformer, do the wire tapping and running the cable to the new charging point, doing the groundworks etc etc will be considerably more expensive that the £20,000 we paid 17 years ago, I bet there would be no change from £30,000+ and that is assuming you can get a drop down from the 11Kv line somewhere near the canal bank without access issues.

 

You dismiss so easily anything involving a cost as being 'it must be done because we will all die if we don't'.

How will anyone get a return on their investment of £30,000 in a reasonable time selling £10-£20-£30 of leccy per day in the Summer and nothing in the Winter.

[Paul C]

39 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Being moored doesn't create a conflict. But moving through a marina where there are lots of boats moored end-on to the bank, then having to turn through 90 degrees to slide between a jetty/pontoon and another moored boat certainly has the potential. And maybe having to do the same in reverse to get out. Especially in those marinas where there always seems to be a cross wind confounding your efforts. And unlike the permanent moorers, the visitors will be unfamiliar with the marina layout. The potential for unintended collisions, and the bad feeling that creates, is significant.

There’s plenty of hire bases within marinas, you’d think they would see the problems as you describe but it doesn’t really happen in practice. There may be a little shuffling around of berths to strategically put the expected busy Bert’s nearest the entrance but that too is all part of the normal things which occur in a marina.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In 2005 we had our house built in a "rural area" and the original pole mounted transformer that had supplied the hovel that was there previously barely coped with a TV and a kettle at the same time.

 

We needed a transformer upgrade.

 

Our electrician worked out what we needed and we had to apply for a new pole mounted transformer. The quote came in at £20,000 for the transformer and 200 metres of cabling (if we did all of the groundworks, running ducting and back filling ourselves).

 

I'd suggest that your statement 'not so expensive' is a matter of your view point -  installing a new transformer from scratch (having to instal an extra pole, build the cradle for the transformer, do the wire tapping and running the cable to the new charging point, doing the groundworks etc etc will be considerably more expensive that the £20,000 we paid 17 years ago, I bet there would be no change from £30,000+ and that is assuming you can get a drop down from the 11Kv line somewhere near the canal bank without access issues.

 

You dismiss so easily anything involving a cost as being 'it must be done because we will all die if we don't'.

How will anyone get a return on their investment of £30,000 in a reasonable time selling £10-£20-£30 of leccy per day in the Summer and nothing in the Winter.

 

Please leave off with the insults -- I *never* dismiss costs, I always try and make a reasonable estimate of them. I said that a pole-mounted transformer would be far less expensive than a new distribution substation -- are you disputing this?

 

How big was your pole-mounted transformer?

 

I agree that if an upgrade costs £30000 then this wouldn't happen, just like upgrading a distribution substation won't happen. As I've said many times (but you seem to keep conveniently ignoring) charging points will only get installed where somebody thinks it's worth their while (i.e. profitable) - unless the government funds them as an investment in infrastructure (yeah, right...) or gets EV charger companies to install them as a condition of their license (yeah, right...).

 

As I've also pointed out, unless something like this is done (charging network) then either the government's concept of getting rid of diesels is impossible to realise, or there will be no boats on the canals. Going by your past posts and dislike of CART and the canals (which is why you left them) I have a suspicion that you'd be happier with the second one, then you could say you were right all along... 😉

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Please leave off with the insults -- I *never* dismiss costs, I always try and make a reasonable estimate of them. I said that a pole-mounted transformer would be far less expensive than a new distribution substation -- are you disputing this?

 

How big was your pole-mounted transformer?

 

I agree that if an upgrade costs £30000 then this wouldn't happen, just like upgrading a distribution substation won't happen. As I've said many times (but you seem to keep conveniently ignoring) charging points will only get installed where somebody thinks it's worth their while (i.e. profitable) - unless the government funds them as an investment in infrastructure (yeah, right...) or gets EV charger companies to install them as a condition of their license (yeah, right...).

 

My my what a sensitive little wall flower you are.

 

What insult?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

How big was your pole-mounted transformer?

 

I really cannot remember - it was 2005.

 

I seem to recal, that the original hovel had a 45 amp supply and we needed 120amp (based on the electrical calulations of something like only 20% of appliances in use at any one time (or whatever the calculation is)

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I really cannot remember - it was 2005.

 

I seem to recal, that the original hovel had a 45 amp supply and we needed 120amp (based on the electrical calulations of something like only 20% of appliances in use at any one time (or whatever the calculation is)

 

So that's £30k for 28kW, which is very close to the £1000/kW mentioned earlier, and that I based my calculations on. Well done for agreeing 🙂

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, IanD said:

 

So that's £30k for 28kW, which is very close to the £1000/kW mentioned earlier, and that I based my calculations on. Well done for agreeing 🙂

 

So you agree it is likely to cost £30k to provide a single charging point canal side.

 

[IanD]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So you agree it is likely to cost £30k to provide a single charging point canal side.

 

Nope, that provides 4 charging points, hence the £1000/kW figure.

 

I can't easily find a cost for a 25kVa pole-mounting transformer in the UK, but according to this:

 

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/-/media/files/about-us/regulatory-information/conn-use-of-sys-and-other-charging-docs/connection-charging-methodology/ukpn-cccms--may-2018-v10-mb-20180524.ashx

 

a 315kVa substation costs £24000, so a pole-mounted transformer should be *far* cheaper. I found a figure from the US which said they cost between $3000 and $7000 depending on size, so £5000 seems like a reasonable guesstimate.

 

Which means that even allowing for other installation costs (which you can see in the ukpowernetworks document above) your figure seems very high... 🙂

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Which means that even allowing for other installation costs (which you can see in the ukpowernetworks document above) your figure seems very high... 🙂

 

Think what you like - it is a fact (17 years ago, so it would not be unreasonable to assume the price has increased considerably) Comparing to US prices seems a bit silly - just look at gas (petrol_ prices compared to UK prices. Totally different market.

[IanD]

20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Think what you like - it is a fact (17 years ago, so it would not be unreasonable to assume the price has increased considerably) Comparing to US prices seems a bit silly - just look at gas (petrol_ prices compared to UK prices. Totally different market.

https://yourpowerfuture.westernpower.co.uk/downloads/4333

 

On page 18 we find:

 

25kVa single phase pole-mounted transformer replacement cost (S.Wales) : £2000 including labour

50kVa 3-phase pole-mounted transformer replacement cost (E.Midlands) : £3300 including labour

 

New installation costs would add to this; if you look at the (many other) worked examples in the document I referred to previously, they typically double the cost, though this can be higher for long distances.

 

AHA!!!!

 

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/27163-200kva-transformer-upgrade/

 

 

On 13/05/2022 at 15:27, benben5555 said:

Was that the full cost or your share of the cost? And did that also include your new connection?

 

The cable runs across our land so the new connection is only around £1,500. The transformer upgrade is the unknown part.

 

The Quote from Network Power reads as if the £2,819.60 is the whole cost for the new 100kVA Transformer, rather than just my 45kVA portion of it.

 

On top of this there was £3,300 to install 130m of 3 phase cable from the telegraph pole to my kiosk, in a trench that I dug, and make the connection, plus other amounts for reinforcing the local overhead lines from transformer to telegraph pole, +++

 

Total cost was £7,600. (for 45kVA)

 

Any further comments? 😉

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

https://yourpowerfuture.westernpower.co.uk/downloads/4333

 

On page 18 we find:

 

25kVa single phase transformer replacement cost (S.Wales) : £2000

50kVa 3-phase transformer replacement cost (E.Midlands) : £3300

 

Any further comments? 😉

 

Yes :

 

I have been and dug out the old paperwork.

 

It was a 100kVa supply.

 

The cost of the Transformer was £16,900.

The balance (£3100) was the costs of site surveys, installation of a new pair of 'heavy' poles* and transformer cradle, instal transformer, supply of ducting and supply of cable with final cable pulling once the groundworks were completed.

 

Please yourself,  these are ACTUAL charges for ACTUAL work done, and don't forget to add the VAT !!

 

* from the document you linked : (‘Replace Heavy Pole Group A – Single’). Supply Heavy Pole is made up of a number of standard work elements e.g. supply the pole, dig a hole, erect and dress the pole etc.)

There are dozens of chargeable operations.

 

You just carry on using unrealistic (USA) figures as justification, use real figures and it just doesn't stack up.

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes :

 

I have been and dug out the old paperwork.

 

It was a 100kVa supply.

 

The cost of the Transformer was £16,900.

The balance (£3100) was the costs of site surveys, installation of a new pair of 'heavy' poles* and transformer cradle, instal transformer, supply of ducting and supply of cable with final cable pulling once the groundworks were completed.

 

Please yourself,  these are ACTUAL charges for ACTUAL work done, and don't forget to add the VAT !!

 

* from the document you linked : (‘Replace Heavy Pole Group A – Single’). Supply Heavy Pole is made up of a number of standard work elements e.g. supply the pole, dig a hole, erect and dress the pole etc.)

There are dozens of chargeable operations.

 

You just carry on using unrealistic (USA) figures as justification, use real figures and it just doesn't stack up.

 

And the quote for £7600 that I provided was also ACTUAL charges for ACTUAL work done in the UK -- and in 2022, not 2005 when things may have been different. The earlier figures were UK prices too.

 

It looks to me like you were soundly ripped off... 😉

 

(or you needed an exceptionally huge amount of work to be done -- *and* were ripped off...)

 

You have one data point from what you paid a long time ago, in what could well have been an atypically expensive installation (but which was still close to £1000/kW). I provided both internal costs to the distribution network from a few years ago, and an actual figure for an installation on 2022, both were considerably lower than this.

 

The only way to be sure which is closer to reality would be for somebody to actually ask for a quote for a real canalside installation today. Until then, something like the £1000/kW estimate is probably as good as we're going to get -- and this would give a reasonable payback time and make charging points financially feasible.

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Are you still confusing kW and kWh per day? Here's the average yield prediction per day from the Victron MPPT calculator for 2kWp of panels, other tools (which all allow for direct and diffuse light) give very similar results...

I am not in the least confused, having designed and installed my own electrical system from scratch, I simply left the 'h' off of Kwh by accident. 

 

The figures that I quoted were real life recordings from my barge, not from graphs issued by a product manufacturer. Like miles per charge figures for electric cars perhaps, or the output figures quoted by the manufacturers of wind turbine DC generators, which are hugely optimistic. I would expect manufacturers to test their products under 'ideal' conditions, ones that perhaps might be difficult to duplicate on a narrowboat roof.

[Bargebuilder]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I did post earlier (3 1/2 pages ago) a letter we got from Ofgem  (we are a reseller of electricity) that shows that the supply of electricity for vehicles is not capped, as per all other resellers

Do many of you actually book into a marina for one night instead of mooring at the side of the canal? I only ever met one chap who did, but that was on the Nene and out of desperation there being no suitable bankside spots.

 

To pay for a berth plus a charge would make for a very expensive week or two afloat.

 

 

[Jimbo435]

On 24/07/2022 at 04:25, IanD said:

It makes no sense for boats which typically have all the onboard components typically rated around 10kW-15kW maximum.

Thank you, I hadn't though of several of those things.  But it still begs the question.  Which system is more costly:

1) High voltage DC charging that can fill a boat in less than an hour, enabling the need for fewer chargers, but requiring more costly electronics on each boat.

2) Enough places to moor overnight each with mains power so every electric boat has a place to moor and charge, mostly with existing electronics on each boat.  Eventually, this would be needed for every boat.

 

We can't do the math without making some assumptions on size of battery, typical boaters daily needs, summer vs winter, etc.

 

I'm thinking that a middle of the road solution is needed between DC fast charging and 30A mains charging.  I don't think it is practical to put 20,000-30,000 mains hookups on the canals/marinas.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Jimbo435 said:

Thank you, I hadn't though of several of those things.  But it still begs the question.  Which system is more costly:

1) High voltage DC charging that can fill a boat in less than an hour, enabling the need for fewer chargers, but requiring more costly electronics on each boat.

2) Enough places to moor overnight each with mains power so every electric boat has a place to moor and charge, mostly with existing electronics on each boat.  Eventually, this would be needed for every boat.

 

We can't do the math without making some assumptions on size of battery, typical boaters daily needs, summer vs winter, etc.

 

I'm thinking that a middle of the road solution is needed between DC fast charging and 30A mains charging.  I don't think it is practical to put 20,000-30,000 mains hookups on the canals/marinas.

Why on earth do you think 20-30000 mains hookups on the canals would be needed?

 

Marinas already have one per boat; for boats that spend most of their time moored, this is fine.

 

How many boats spend how much time actually cruising around the canals? I suspect there are only a few thousand (how many?) moving at any one time, and the numbers I was working on suggest that in summer (when most of them move, and almost all hire boats) they'd need to charge up (overnight?) maybe two or three times a week.

 

So this means maybe a thousand boats plugged in at any one time, perhaps double that at most. So a few thousand charging points should be fine to allow for at most 50% occupancy, certainly no more than 5000 or so.

 

You're right that an alternative would be a smaller number of fast charge points, like water points -- but I really don't think that you're aware of the safety, regulation, qualification and maintenance issues with ultra-fast 400V DC chargers, and the big cost overhead on the boat -- for starters batteries have to be sealed and liquid-cooled.

 

Cars *need* fast-charging and the high cost overhead can be amortised over hundreds of thousands of vehicles; canal boats don't and can't. 

[Paul C]

48 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Do many of you actually book into a marina for one night instead of mooring at the side of the canal? I only ever met one chap who did, but that was on the Nene and out of desperation there being no suitable bankside spots.

 

To pay for a berth plus a charge would make for a very expensive week or two afloat.

 

 

 

 

Its a good question. I've done it once (it was for a few nights though, not just 1 night) but it was still clearly a short-term mooring in a fairly full marina, in a berth that was temporarily unoccupied. It wasn't out of desperation, more a planning thing for a specific trip. 

 

Berth + charge every night would be expensive, but then a week's diesel is quite expensive too. And I imagine online, perhaps even towpath-side online moorings will offer hookup too, at more competitive prices. I suspect at the moment, marinas don't really strongly 'market' the idea of a short term mooring so their prices are somewhat plucked out of the air rather than anything else. They are handy for a lot of use cases which I suspect the demographic of this forum doesn't recognise or represent so well.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

So this means maybe a thousand boats plugged in at any one time, perhaps double that at most. So a few thousand charging points should be fine to allow for at most 50% occupancy, certainly no more than 5000 or so.

 

The question that follows is then how are those 5000 dispersed around the system ?

 

1) Do you put one every 2 miles evenly spaced around the system, or

2) Do you put 100 for a few miles around every honeyspot ?

3) Do you leave the 'quiet rarely used, cannot justify the expense' canals just to wither and die ?

[Jimbo435]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

Why on earth do you think 20-30000 mains hookups on the canals would be needed?

 

Marinas already have one per boat; for boats that spend most of their time moored, this is fine.

 

How many boats spend how much time actually cruising around the canals? I suspect there are only a few thousand (how many?) moving at any one time, and the numbers I was working on suggest that in summer (when most of them move, and almost all hire boats) they'd need to charge up (overnight?) maybe two or three times a week.

 

So this means maybe a thousand boats plugged in at any one time, perhaps double that at most. So a few thousand charging points should be fine to allow for at most 50% occupancy, certainly no more than 5000 or so.

 

You're right that an alternative would be a smaller number of fast charge points, like water points -- but I really don't think that you're aware of the safety, regulation, qualification and maintenance issues with ultra-fast 400V DC chargers, and the big cost overhead on the boat -- for starters batteries have to be sealed and liquid-cooled.

 

Cars *need* fast-charging and the high cost overhead can be amortised over hundreds of thousands of vehicles; canal boats don't and can't. 

Yeah, I guess I underestimated how many boaters stay in marinas.  Didn't I read that about 10% of all boats were CCs?  That would be about 3000, no?  So maybe your 5k chargers is about right.  I guess where they are would also be important.

I wonder if an unused freight container, with batteries and solar would be cost effective to drop just off the towpath.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The question that follows is then how are those 5000 dispersed around the system ?

 

1) Do you put one every 2 miles evenly spaced around the system, or

2) Do you put 100 for a few miles around every honeyspot ?

3) Do you leave the 'quiet rarely used, cannot justify the expense' canals just to wither and die ?

 

How do you (or CRT, or SUCS) decide where to put visitor moorings, or water points, or pump out facilities around the canal network? Or any other service provider, eg broadband or bus services. I imagine it would be some kind of multi-factored 'scoring' system where popular sites are identified and given many hookups, less popular ones might receive one or two (at subsidy) and a few canals, none at all. Remember though, its not like the canal would die without it - it would just need more careful planning to reach that spot, in the same way eg remote areas of the Scottish Highlands are perfectly reachable by car or 4x4 but you need to plan where to fill up with fuel beforehand instead of simply hoping there is a filling station.

[IanD]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The question that follows is then how are those 5000 dispersed around the system ?

 

1) Do you put one every 2 miles evenly spaced around the system, or

2) Do you put 100 for a few miles around every honeyspot ?

3) Do you leave the 'quiet rarely used, cannot justify the expense' canals just to wither and die ?

You put more of them where the biggest demand is and then fill the gaps in, just like petrol stations or anything else. There are only 2000 miles of canals, so there will be clumps of charging stations at popular points, and more spread-out ones on less-used canals.

 

No need to let the less-used ones "wither and die", for example there are only a couple of boat movements per day on canals like the HNC and Rochdale summit, a charging point or two every few miles would be plenty, given that boats only typically have to recharge every 2 or 3 days.

 

Maybe instead of spending time and effort continously thinking up spurious objections, you could turn round and use some of your brain power to think how things could actually be made to work and improve things for everybody?

 

Oh yes I forgot, you think the canals are a disaster, don't use them any more, and would rather CART imploded -- especially faced with a challenge like how to go electric, because EVs don't work for you so they're obviously useless for everyone else, and electric boats are similar... 😞

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Paul C said:

How do you (or CRT, or SUCS) decide where to put visitor moorings, or water points, or pump out facilities around the canal network?

 

C'mon - think what you are saying :

 

You fill up with fuel once a month ?

You fill up with water once every 2 weeks ?

You have a pump out ever couple of months (a Cassette twice a week) ?

You moor every night at a random spot on the towpath (or are you suggesting that everyone moors up every night on a visitor mooring)

 

You will need to charge you boat somewhere between every day and every 2 or 3 days. - many people (especially 'leisure boaters' who want to make the best use of their time will cruise 8 or 10 hours a day)

 

You lack of knowledge of canal boating is showing/

[Paul C]

13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C'mon - think what you are saying :

 

You fill up with fuel once a month ?

You fill up with water once every 2 weeks ?

You have a pump out ever couple of months (a Cassette twice a week) ?

You moor every night at a random spot on the towpath (or are you suggesting that everyone moors up every night on a visitor mooring)

 

You will need to charge you boat somewhere between every day and every 2 or 3 days. - many people (especially 'leisure boaters' who want to make the best use of their time will cruise 8 or 10 hours a day)

 

You lack of knowledge of canal boating is showing/

 

No, you're making assumptions on many aspects such as frequency of diesel fill up, water tank size/usage, pump out tank capacity. Also, I and others have postulated it will be 2-3 solid days cruising in the not too distant future, simply to allow for what I suspect you're hinting at - that charging point availability will be restricted initially. Cheap boats might have shorter range though, for those who don't mind the consequences of such.

 

Because electric canal boats are able to learn many of the lessons of the first electric cars - with their range issues - I think it will be a much more considered, and less severe issue than you imagine it to be.

 

But its good that you're now thinking about it; and its just the details you're struggling with. And, understanding others.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Paul C

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C'mon - think what you are saying :

 

You fill up with fuel once a month ?

You fill up with water once every 2 weeks ?

You have a pump out ever couple of months (a Cassette twice a week) ?

You moor every night at a random spot on the towpath (or are you suggesting that everyone moors up every night on a visitor mooring)

 

You will need to charge you boat somewhere between every day and every 2 or 3 days. - many people (especially 'leisure boaters' who want to make the best use of their time will cruise 8 or 10 hours a day)

 

You lack of knowledge of canal boating is showing/

 

If you fill up with water only every two weeks you must have the world's biggest water tank, or smell quite badly, or both... 😉

 

Many holidaymakers and CCers don't stop at a random place on the towpath (though some do), they stop near a pub or town or village, and top up with water every couple of days -- they'll need to do the same with power. If you want to stop in the middle of nowhere, you'll need to think more carefully about charging, just like filling a water tank.

 

Maybe your lack of knowledge about how some other people travel on the canals is showing... 😉