Hybrid drive conversion question

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I suspect the guvverment's attitude is nobody NEEDS a boat.

 

So if we can't find a way to go boating without diesel engines, the boating itself will have to stop. 

 

 

I think you are right and we will all just have to make do with those things they have in Birmingham

[Bargebuilder]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Don't forget that in summer if you only cruise a few hours per day (or a couple of days per week) solar can provide all the power needed.

Wide beams great, big NBs less so, little NBs probably not, grp cruisers, not a chance.

 

If you like to cruise every day of your holiday and do 5 plus hours on each of them as many do, you are going to struggle until that charging network is complete.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Bargebuilder said:

Wide beams great, big NBs less so, little NBs probably not, grp cruisers, not a chance.

 

If you like to cruise every day of your holiday and do 5 plus hours on each of them as many do, you are going to struggle until that charging network is complete.

yep

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Wide beams great, big NBs less so, little NBs probably not, grp cruisers, not a chance.

 

If you like to cruise every day of your holiday and do 5 plus hours on each of them as many do, you are going to struggle until that charging network is complete.

That's what I said. Typical propulsion use (estimates and feedback from real EBs) is around 14kWh for an 8h cruising day, solar on a narrowboat can provide about half of that in summer (7kWh), maybe 2kWh in winter -- and don't forget domestic power. Oh yes, and heating. A wideboat can provide about 20kWh/day in summer. GRP cruisers much less, maybe only a couple of kWh.

 

Until then, you need an (expensive, burns fuel) onboard generator, which is why (almost) everyone does that today. Needs to run for maybe an hour a day if cruising every day, maybe two hours in winter.

Edited July 24, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

36 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's what I said. Typical propulsion use (estimates and feedback from real EBs) is around 14kWh for an 8h cruising day, solar on a narrowboat can provide about half of that in summer (7kWh), maybe 2kWh in winter -- and don't forget domestic power. Oh yes, and heating. A wideboat can provide about 20kWh/day in summer. GRP cruisers much less, maybe only a couple of kWh.

 

Until then, you need an (expensive, burns fuel) onboard generator, which is why (almost) everyone does that today. Needs to run for maybe an hour a day if cruising every day, maybe two hours in winter.

7Kw, even on the roof of a 45 to 50ft NB?

 

I lived on an off grid barge for a number of years and in my experience, winter output from my solar panels could be a miserable as 10% of that produced on a sunny summers day. Things must have improved a great deal if a panel that yields 7Kw in summer can now manage 2Kw in the depths of winter.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

It would contribute, but not much. But it would contribute.....

 

About 8 years ago my local canalside pub changed their visitor moorings into long term moorings. No investment needed and probably £2-3k per annum per boat income.

[cuthound]

If the charging infrastructure isn't developed enough, electric boaters could always use a suitcase generator to charge their batteries.

 

They could be rebranded, no longer called generators but something innovative and modern like range extenders... 🤣

[Bargebuilder]

18 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

About 8 years ago my local canalside pub changed their visitor moorings into long term moorings. No investment needed and probably £2-3k per annum per boat income.

Visiting NBs can't have contributed much to their meal/drinks takings then.

[Paul C]

2 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Visiting NBs can't have contributed much to their meal/drinks takings then.

They never do. The canals are too quiet for this to be meaningful.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's what I said. Typical propulsion use (estimates and feedback from real EBs) is around 14kWh for an 8h cruising day, solar on a narrowboat can provide about half of that in summer (7kWh), maybe 2kWh in winter -- and don't forget domestic power. Oh yes, and heating. A wideboat can provide about 20kWh/day in summer. GRP cruisers much less, maybe only a couple of kWh.

 

Until then, you need an (expensive, burns fuel) onboard generator, which is why (almost) everyone does that today. Needs to run for maybe an hour a day if cruising every day, maybe two hours in winter.

Most of my genny running is for domestic use, hot water or cooking the fact this it charges both banks is a bonus. If not moving next day genny running not needed as much 

24 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

7Kw, even on the roof of a 45 to 50ft NB?

 

I lived on an off grid barge for a number of years and in my experience, winter output from my solar panels could be a miserable as 10% of that produced on a sunny summers day. Things must have improved a great deal if a panel that yields 7Kw in summer can now manage 2Kw in the depths of winter.

I can get through winter mostly on solar, cold sunny days arnt the problem its dull overcast that kills solar 

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

They never do. The canals are too quiet for this to be meaningful.

Perhaps they would reconsider if they could put in charge points and sell leccy to passing electric NBs and sell them food and drink as well.

[Paul C]

5 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Perhaps they would reconsider if they could put in charge points and sell leccy to passing electric NBs and sell them food and drink as well.

 

It would seem obvious, but it would depend on the relative cost of providing a charger minus the profit from electricity + meal/drink sales.

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Visiting NBs can't have contributed much to their meal/drinks takings then.

They probably contribute just as much to the meal/drinks takings if they moor on the towpath side.

Edited July 24, 2022 by David Mack

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

They probably contribute just as much to the meal/drinks takings if they moor on the towpath side.

Only if there is a bridge!

[David Mack]

41 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Only if there is a bridge!

How many offside pubs are there that aren't by a bridge?

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Bargebuilder said:

7Kw, even on the roof of a 45 to 50ft NB?

 

I lived on an off grid barge for a number of years and in my experience, winter output from my solar panels could be a miserable as 10% of that produced on a sunny summers day. Things must have improved a great deal if a panel that yields 7Kw in summer can now manage 2Kw in the depths of winter.

kWh, not kW. A 2kW (peak power) panel will be expected to yield an average of 7kWh in summer, and maybe 1.5kWh in midwinter.

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Most of my genny running is for domestic use, hot water or cooking the fact this it charges both banks is a bonus. If not moving next day genny running not needed as much 

I can get through winter mostly on solar, cold sunny days arnt the problem its dull overcast that kills solar 

But you have almost 5kW of panels on a wideboat, 2.5x what can fit on a narrowboat...

[Bargebuilder]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

A 2kW (peak power) panel will be expected to yield an average of 7kWh in summer, and maybe 1.5kWh in midwinter.

From the years when I relied on solar panels, us being totally off grid, I would only have expected that sort of midwinter output on a sunny day or at least one with high, thin cloud providing lots of scattered light.

And our panels were tilted up to the correct winter angle and oriented to face due south. 

[Tony Brooks]

15 hours ago, IanD said:

For most hire bases the boats leave on a Saturday and come back a week later, it's rare that they pass the hire base in between. Even if they did, that's only one charging slot out of 6 days. Most of the time they'll be charging elsewhere -- or maybe at a hire base other than the one they hired from.

 

I think that no longer applies. Many hire fleets seem to operate on a 3 night - 4 night basis so turn round days are Friday and Monday and the larger fleets may have dedicated 7-day boats with a Saturday turnround. Even back in the late 60s when weekend bookings were only taken early and late in the year we were turning bast around Monday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. The fleets also seem often seem to be larger than the facilities can accommodate at one time - hence the winter canal blocking by certain fleets. I doubt hire bases will be available to many private boaters but booking agents like Hoseasons might "encourage" charging facilities for boats from other fleets.That  would further reduce the availability to private boats.

 

I could see marinas could use pontoons where the normal moorer is away to offer private electric boat overnight charging but will private boaters be prepared to pay because it will be an overnight mooring fee plus electricity, even if it is presented as a single figure? I also wonder how many marina pontoon electricity supplies could cope with the extra load.

 

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that no longer applies. Many hire fleets seem to operate on a 3 night - 4 night basis so turn round days are Friday and Monday and the larger fleets may have dedicated 7-day boats with a Saturday turnround. Even back in the late 60s when weekend bookings were only taken early and late in the year we were turning bast around Monday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday. The fleets also seem often seem to be larger than the facilities can accommodate at one time - hence the winter canal blocking by certain fleets. I doubt hire bases will be available to many private boaters but booking agents like Hoseasons might "encourage" charging facilities for boats from other fleets.That  would further reduce the availability to private boats.

 

I could see marinas could use pontoons where the normal moorer is away to offer private electric boat overnight charging but will private boaters be prepared to pay because it will be an overnight mooring fee plus electricity, even if it is presented as a single figure? I also wonder how many marina pontoon electricity supplies could cope with the extra load.

 

I agree, hire bases will only make charging available to other (non-hire-fleet) boats when there is free space, which depends how many days they use for turnaround. Most bases still have more boats on Saturday than any other day because that's where the demand is, then Sunday -- Friday and Monday are less popular because it means an extra day off work. This seems pretty universal across all the hire bases I've either used or looked at over the years.

 

As you say, marinas could also do the same -- the number of visiting electric boats drawing 30A while charging will be far smaller than the number of moored boats drawing much less, so it's unlikely to need much (if any) beefing up of the incoming supply to the marina, but some upgrading of cabling to the charging bollards may well be needed.

 

How much everywhere will charge remains to be seen, but "market forces" will apply -- if somewhere charges too much nobody will stop there unless they absolutely have to, and they'll make more money by reducing their fees.

[IanD]

46 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

From the years when I relied on solar panels, us being totally off grid, I would only have expected that sort of midwinter output on a sunny day or at least one with high, thin cloud providing lots of scattered light.

And our panels were tilted up to the correct winter angle and oriented to face due south. 

 

Are you still confusing kW and kWh per day? Here's the average yield prediction per day from the Victron MPPT calculator for 2kWp of panels, other tools (which all allow for direct and diffuse light) give very similar results...

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[MtB]

Swerving off at a tangent, but a related tangent, how much does it actually cost to install a EB charging point?

 

Let's imagine a pub VM with space for two NBs. The pub already has a 3 phase supply into the building and two EB charging points are being considered, each of which will be 100ft from the pub building. Is it possible to do some 'finger in the air' estimates? 

 

Obviously 150-200ft of trenching then backfilling will be needed to pay the cable. Perhaps £2k at a guess. What hardware is needed at each end and what sort of cable would be needed? I'd guess the cable would cost another £2k and a couple of days' work for an electrician and mate to connect it up and install the canalside bollards, say another £1k. Would a standard 32A bollard be sufficient or is something more complicated needed? 

 

I guess the tricky bit is knowing the whether the cable supplying the pub is good enough for two x 32A bollards drawing each 30A all evening, at the same time as peak domestic demand on the supply running the pub. 

 

 

[Lady M]

Some pubs, especially those with accommodation, may also wish to install EV charging points in the car park.  However, I'm not sure how appealing the cost of this infrastructure will be to some of the pub companies.

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

Swerving off at a tangent, but a related tangent, how much does it actually cost to install a EB charging point?

 

Let's imagine a pub VM with space for two NBs. The pub already has a 3 phase supply into the building and two EB charging points are being considered, each of which will be 100ft from the pub building. Is it possible to do some 'finger in the air' estimates? 

 

Obviously 150-200ft of trenching then backfilling will be needed to pay the cable. Perhaps £2k at a guess. What hardware is needed at each end and what sort of cable would be needed? I'd guess the cable would cost another £2k and a couple of days' work for an electrician and mate to connect it up and install the canalside bollards, say another £1k. Would a standard 32A bollard be sufficient or is something more complicated needed? 

 

I guess the tricky bit is knowing the whether the cable supplying the pub is good enough for two x 32A bollards drawing each 30A all evening, at the same time as peak domestic demand on the supply running the pub. 

 

 

 

For overnight charging -- or even daytime -- a standard 32A bollard would be fine, and is what has been installed in the few places these points have been put in. Ultra-fast charging points are totally different, apart from the high-current grid connection there's a lot of expensive electronics inside to convert to 400V DC at several hundred amps -- and also the installation on the boat is a lot more expensive to handle this.

 

Something like £5k per bollard total (£10k for two) doesn't seem unreasonable. An overnight charge would probably net about £10 profit, assuming they add a big premium to the cost per kWh. Depending on how many night per year they're occupied -- probably quite a lot of it's a popular pub! -- this would break even after a few years (500 overnight stays?) and make money after this.

 

A condition of using it could be made that you have to eat/drink at the pub -- or do it the other way round, charge £20 for the mooring/power but refund £10 at the bar.

 

Whether most pubs have an incoming supply with enough current to add another 60A is another question, and I don't have an answer -- I would guess that as commercial premises bigger than a normal house they have a higher-rated feed (120A?) but don't have any actual numbers. Anyone else have some?

 

Another option would be for them to install a local battery bank (like a Powerwall) to cover peak demand, but this is more expense -- might be cheaper than getting an upgraded grid feed though...

Edited July 25, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Lady C said:

Some pubs, especially those with accommodation, may also wish to install EV charging points in the car park.  However, I'm not sure how appealing the cost of this infrastructure will be to some of the pub companies.

Maybe -- or maybe they'll do it and charge extra for the rooms as an "EV-friendly" pub?

 

Lots of companies and businesses seem to think there's money to be made out of installing charging points, not just from the profit on the power but also to attract and keep customers. I'm sure they're not *all* wrong... 😉

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I could see marinas could use pontoons where the normal moorer is away to offer private electric boat overnight charging

Offering facilities on a service berth close to the marina entrance is one thing, but will offline marinas really want lots of overnight visitors navigating their way through half the marina to access a mooring that requires sliding into a narrow gap between a pontoon/jetty and another moored boat? Seems an easy way to piss off your permanent moorers!