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2 hours ago, AndrewIC said:

None of them - even the 6 litre is only 13A/21B, so in the eyes of the BSS doesn’t count as a fire extinguisher.

NOTE – portable fire extinguishers manufactured prior to the introduction of EN 3 may not have fire ratings marked on the extinguisher. Such extinguishers maintained in good condition, properly certified and satisfying the navigation authority’s previous individual and total weight requirements are acceptable.

 

I doubt if the BSS would reject extinguishers that are far better than dry powder ones, although if they are that fussy, then just buy one for use on fires that you want to put out first go without either half blinding yourself or making a big mess.

Foam vs Powder Fire Extinguisher - Which One to Choose? (safelincs.co.uk)  

 

It does mention in that page that foam does soak into the fuel and cool it down, which is why it does not reignite, like the training fiasco I watched with a dry powder extinguisher. 

The fact that the BSS does not insist on a water hose in addition to portable extinguishers makes me wonder if they have looked at the range of the small extinguishers in terms of range, as you do need to get far too close to the fire in comparison to a hose. My Amerex or slinky should be good for 50 ft, when a normal handheld dry powder is only good for 5ft.

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3 minutes ago, TNLI said:

NOTE – portable fire extinguishers manufactured prior to the introduction of EN 3 may not have fire ratings marked on the extinguisher. Such extinguishers maintained in good condition, properly certified and satisfying the navigation authority’s previous individual and total weight requirements are acceptable.

 

I doubt if the BSS would reject 3 extinguishers that are far better than dry powder ones.

I clicked the Safelincs link you provided and read the spec. They’re EN3 certified, and the 13A/21B fire rating for the big 6 litre is in the manufacturer’s data sheet. I also looked at the latest BSS doc, which is quite clear in the appendix that 5A/34B is the minimum acceptable rating for an individual extinguisher. The text you quote no longer appears in that form; the reference to the introduction of EN3 is replaced by “before 1980”. Whether they are “better” or not is immaterial; they don’t meet the specified criteria.

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23 hours ago, TNLI said:

If your car or engine catches fire the local fire brigade will probably use a fine water spray to put it out,

Sorry this isn't true at all . I dont believe any fire dept would also tackle a car fire without a minimum of 1000 gallons . You would need a pretty big fire extinguisher for that 

Electrical fires best advice I ever got was turn the power off and turn it into a class A . which  would not always be possible depending on location of fire on a narrowboat.

So my recommendation would be if you dont know what you are doing (and trust me you dont , which is not a slight as why would you) get off the boat , your possessions can be replaced . You can't .

23 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, flogget said:

Sorry this isn't true at all . I dont believe any fire dept would also tackle a car fire without a minimum of 1000 gallons . You would need a pretty big fire extinguisher for that 

Electrical fires best advice I ever got was turn the power off and turn it into a class A . which  would not always be possible depending on location of fire on a narrowboat.

So my recommendation would be if you dont know what you are doing (and trust me you dont , which is not a slight as why would you) get off the boat , your possessions can be replaced . You can't .

 

 

They have been using rapid response SUV's with a lot less than 1000 gallons in London, it was the fine mist water spray that impressed me, although they also use portable foam extinguishers. Not sure what the bigger fire trucks have these days.

Oddly enough high voltage electrical fires on small boats are very rare, and obviously turning the gen set off might help. 

 

I've been trained to deal with both aircraft cabin fires and boat fires, and I can assure you that trying to put a fire out with a typical dry powder extinguisher does not work too well, and can be dangerous due to their limited range, as you have to get far too close.  A longer range hose or more powerful full size water extinguisher is far safer and more effective. Obviously people do move clear of a fire, but I've been at one incident where everyone moved clear of a burning motor bike, until some clown went to his car and returned with a small dry powder extinguisher and tried to put the fire out, but he could not get close enough, so it made no difference and he burnt his hands in the attempt. A full size portable or even a garden hose would have helped a lot more. 

I'm surprised the BSS says 3 small dry powder extinguishers and not one small and one full size longer range unit, although 2 and a water hose would be better.

Fire blankets are a must have item, as they do work well on small galley fires in particular.

 

I took a look at the Amerex web site, and get the impression that you might not be able to refill their new water extinguishers, which is a real pity, as it did allow the crew to have some fun when it was hot. I even used one to clean the outside of the hull recently. I got mine from Fleabay for only 15 quid, (I did have to pick it up), and was real pleased to get such a classic extinguisher. I first saw one used for an out of control bonfire 30 years ago, and was very impressed at both the range and how easy it was to refill. That was back when I was living in the US and flying water bombers (CL 215's), or survey aircraft mapping new forest fires in the US and Canada. We used water unless there were buildings or people around, then switched on the retardant foam bottle. 

 

I'm in this old clip, although the Spanish chap who posted it copied some clips from the CL fleet in Canada.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, TNLI said:

 

 

They have been using rapid response SUV's with a lot less than 1000 gallons in London, it was the fine mist water spray that impressed me, although they also use portable foam extinguishers. Not sure what the bigger fire trucks have these days.

Oddly enough high voltage electrical fires on small boats are very rare, and obviously turning the gen set off might help. 

 

I've been trained to deal with both aircraft cabin fires and boat fires, and I can assure you that trying to put a fire out with a typical dry powder extinguisher does not work too well, and can be dangerous due to their limited range, as you have to get far too close.  A longer range hose or more powerful full size water extinguisher is far safer and more effective. Obviously people do move clear of a fire, but I've been at one incident where everyone moved clear of a burning motor bike, until some clown went to his car and returned with a small dry powder extinguisher and tried to put the fire out, but he could not get close enough, so it made no difference and he burnt his hands in the attempt. A full size portable or even a garden hose would have helped a lot more. 

I'm surprised the BSS says 3 small dry powder extinguishers and not one small and one full size longer range unit, although 2 and a water hose would be better.

Fire blankets are a must have item, as they do work well on small galley fires in particular.

 

I took a look at the Amerex web site, and get the impression that you might not be able to refill their new water extinguishers, which is a real pity, as it did allow the crew to have some fun when it was hot. I even used one to clean the outside of the hull recently.

 

 

 

 

A fine mist spray may work wonders  but a fully engaged car fire is bloody hot and you would be best to cool it down from a distance  first  Not possible with your fine mist .

I have no clue what they are putting out fires with in London  but I would be amazed if these vehicles were not  designed to tap into another  water supply . 

Our protocols ( not  in the uk ) is to roll with 3000 gallons.  We won't use that (unless it's a Tesla which may possibly use another 5000)  but we would look bloody stupid if we ran out of water and I have been on some stubborn ones that just dont want to be put out . We also would finish off with a coating of class A foam 

 I have no idea if this is used in the uk either . 

 

Yes fire blankets can be great . You can even get those for car fires too.

 

Dont use a fire extinguisher ,or a garden hose though . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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We are getting a bit off topic talking about a hot car fire, as anyone that goes near one with a small portable fire extinguisher is some kind of lunatic. Obviously a large fire requires a lot of water, and the new large extended cab SUV's can plug into a fire hydrant.

 

Good of you to explain when they use foam, as I knew they had that capability but was not sure when they used it. For any boater reading this, most car fires do not involve the fuel tank exploding like they always do in Hollywood films, so the amount of fuel involved is often fairly small, but the interior of the car and all the plastic parts in the engine bay do burn rather too well.

 

I would love to see a video of a Tesla or similar Li battery powered car on fire, because around 200 people a year burn to death in car and truck fires in the UK, (Might be an old figure), but if we change to all electric, I wonder if that figure will go up or down ??

 

I would point out that my all stainless Amerex water extinguisher has a brass adjustable nozzle, and one small truck in the US that I saw fighting a light aircraft start fire that was out of control, was using a hose with an adjustable nozzle. Alas you can't get adjustable nozzles certified for non professional use, so you have to buy 2 hoses with fixed nozzles and a small spanner! 

 

Amerex still supply spares for my extinguisher, but I would warn anyone that buys an old one, that you should get it checked out by a diving bottle company for internal corrosion, as stainless can corrode if someone fills it with something daft, with vinegar being one common fluid that would cause long term internal corrosion. The 5 year bottle inspection is only a legal requirement for commercial use, so I just used a borescope, and luckily the inside is still nice and shiny. The max pressure, (Top of green arc), is 100 psi, so I only pump it up with my twin barrel car foot pump to 70 psi, which is bottom of the green arc. It's one amazing fire extinguisher, as it can fire a fine jet right across the road and maintain that performance until its starts hissing which is a few seconds before it runs out of water. I'm looking for a more fire resistant slinky hose for my deck wash pump, preferably in Dayglo green, but the only ones I can find are in the US at present.

 

Good of you to confirm they are using fine mist water hoses, as they are far better when used in a confined space where the dry powder will often get in your eyes.

 

If you have a plastic, (Polyester or contaminated floor epoxy build), fiberglass or a wooden boat, it is possible in design terms to make them far less flammable. All you do is install a thru hull and seacock with a thin plastic hose along the side to the top or each locker or compartment, BUT with a smaller end fitting. Then if that area catches fire the plastic burns through the thin hose flooding the locker, or engine bay. Obviously this might sink the boat unless it has watertight compartments or is unsinkable by design, (Mine will be when finished), although if you only fit them to lockers with a drain that is smaller than the bilge pumps can handle, it won't sink the boat. 

 

Alas it only seems to be mostly lifeboat or oil industry on station rescue vessels that are designed with fires and collisions in mind, although there are a few more expensive offshore fishing boats, and a very few full displacement gin palaces, (Nice liveaboard trawler designs), that are designed to be safe when a disaster occurs. 

 

Final comment for today, (Lots of cheers from the flooded ditch fans), this is what I think the BSS Regs should be:

 

1/ A small fire blanket in each cabin, but an extra large fire blanket in the galley area.

 

2/ Auto burst fire bottles in the engine and generator bays, (Dry powder is OK as foam ones are twice the size).

 

3/ An above decks wash down or fresh water pump slinky hose with an adjustable nozzle.

 

4/ A large water extinguisher with dual hoses and a Y valve, (Fine spray or 50ft jet)

 

5/ A large dry powder or foam fire extinguisher, (The latter needs to be bigger for the same rating),.

 

The 2 larger portables should be sored in clearly marked boxes either above decks or right next to the exits. 

 

Now that would prevent a lot of small fires developing because the owner, renter or crew make a total cock up of dealing with a small fire, that often occurs because they have never used a small dry powder extinguisher, and staying in the same cabin or a few feet from a fire to use one is nuts, if the small fire blanket fails, get out of the area and use a real extinguisher that has a far safer range from outside of the area, Most crew that use a deck wash pump to clean off bird poop, or muddy boot marks are real aces when it comes to fire fighting, as they know how to use the hose and what it can or can't do in spray pattern and range terms. 

 

Ah, final rant about gas lockers, as I tested a few in a marina that looked good but failed a smoke test, so if the bottle or connections had leaked heavier than air propane, it would have leaked out of the lid and drifted down into the cabin. The problem was that the drain line that goes outside was either blocked by dirt, or had been incorrectly installed by the build team, so that it drained water but the angle was wrong and left enough water in the drain hose to stop gas passing through it. 

  That inspection of the boats in Puerto Mogan followed after an incident in which a yacht exploded as a result of an incorrectly installed drain hose. A very small fire started after the big bang in the bilges, but it was fairly easily put out by flooding the bilges using a 3/4 inch garden hose from a pontoon tap. It took a while as there was some smoke making it difficult to see what was burning. The entire lower half of the interior fit was literally blown apart, so it was a real mess inside, so stayed outside and just kept spraying the cabin sole area until the fire was out. Without that hose the fire would have developed into a real serious conflagration, that could have spread to other boats, as it takes over an hour to get a real fire truck to that port. 

 

PS: It would be good if some canal folks tried to move up to using newer technologies, like Hydrogen cookers. I've not found a company suppling single burners yet, as the only one has a long list of back orders. Direct body heating is also catching on with those folks planning for the end of cheap gas, coal and oil. The new caravan solar panels are cheap and effective, but the wind generators are problematic in installation terms, but I did see one go green river boat last year that had one right along side that was portable and had a safety deflector ring.

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, TNLI said:

In my opinion they would be ideal for boats but it is unlikely to happen until they get class A & B fire approval.

 

Try clicking on the link and reading all about water mist extinguishers before posting your comment.

 

Better link: 

Water Mist Fire Extinguishers - For Most Types of Fire (safelincs.co.uk)

 

Water Mist - Amerex Fire Systems (amerex-fire.com)

 

A, B and C !!

 

 

Change Now to Broad-Spectrum Water Mist Fire Extinguishers

Our water mist extinguishers discharge de-ionised water in a super fine spray to form a mist jet. They have a broader fire-fighting capability than powder, foam or wet chemical extinguishers.

 

Now if I was buying a fire extinguisher for a canal boat, I would probably opt for water mist, possibly from Safelincs.

 

 

 

Sadly not enough to satisfy the BSS, as others have pointed out.

 

As I said, permanently installed watermist systems triggered by smoke and heat detectors never allow a fire to take hold and would be perfect for a boat. 

 

I spoke to Marrioff about it some years back, but they weren't interested as the market is too small.

 

At present the best compromise is enough powder extinguishers to satisfy the BSS supplemented by a couple of 6 litre portable watermist extinguishers to deal with any small smouldering or electrical.fire without making much of a mess.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

At present the best compromise is enough powder extinguishers to satisfy the BSS supplemented by a couple of 6 litre portable watermist extinguishers to deal with any small smouldering or electrical.fire without making much of a mess.

 

Just curious - would water extinguishers survive sub zero temperatures if left aboard a winterised boat?

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11 minutes ago, alias said:

 

Just curious - would water extinguishers survive sub zero temperatures if left aboard a winterised boat?

 

Probably not, however I always leave a couple of electric oil filled radiators on board connected to a thermostat set to come on at 5°C.

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2 hours ago, alias said:

 

Just curious - would water extinguishers survive sub zero temperatures if left aboard a winterised boat?

I add a small amount of anti freeze, although the sealed ones already contain it, BUT if in doubt read the specifications for the minimum temperature, as some old cheap units are for indoors use and might not have any anti freeze.

 

Be careful with stainless water extinguisher copies, cos I just looked at one and has plus 5C for a lower limit!

 

Quote from fire safety site:

Fire Extinguishers With Anti-Freeze Added

Some fire extinguisher brands offer water based fire extinguishers with additional anti-freeze added to the mixture. For example, ethylene glycol can be added to water to lower the freezing point. However, at very low temperatures, it will thicken and eventually clog the nozzle. Salts can also be added to water fire extinguishers to lower the point of freezing while not thickening.

 

I would note that foam extinguishers can also freeze, so it's good that alias asked about the minimum temperature. So buy from a real top brand company and read the specifications sheet. Be vary careful of buying a bad copy from Fleabay or Amazinzone.

 

Right now I'm miffed at the AMEREX UK dealer, as they fail to list the minimum temperature on their web site, and say it certified to BSEN3, which is interesting to read:

pffeguid.pdf (firesafe.org.uk)

 

BUT, I still can't find the minimum temperature!

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4 hours ago, cuthound said:

As I said, permanently installed watermist systems triggered by smoke and heat detectors never allow a fire to take hold and would be perfect for a boat. 

 

It is compulsory (insurance requirement) for sea-going boats capable of in excess of 17 knots with inboard engines :

 

4.1 In accordance with General Condition

 

4.1, Your Insurers have noted that the maximum designed speed of Your Craft under power can exceed 17 Knots

 

4.2 It is a condition of this insurance that when the Craft concerned is under way, You or another competent person(s) shall be on board and in control of Your Craft.

 

4.3 Your Insurers will not pay any claim for:

     4.3.1 loss, damage, liability or any salvage services while Your Craft is Racing or taking part in speed tests or trials;

     4.3.2 loss or damage to turbojet Speedboats unless they are taken out of the water in the normal way and not run Ashore under their          own power;

     4.3.3 loss, damage, liability or any salvage services caused by or arising from fire or explosion if Your Craft is fitted with inboard                 Machinery unless Your Craft is fitted with:

            4.3.3.1 a remote controlled (the controls must be operated from the steering position) or automatic Fire Extinguishing System in                  the engine compartment and if possible the tank space; and

           4.3.3.2 manually operated Fire Extinguishers and a fire blanket in the galley area

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5 hours ago, alias said:

Just curious - would water extinguishers survive sub zero temperatures if left aboard a winterised boat?

The water mist units listed at Safelincs quote an operating temperature down to 0C, foam down to +5C. Both are marked “protect from frost”; you really wouldn’t want a an extinguisher pressurised at 12bar unexpectedly going pop!

 

Of the available types, you could get to the BSS magic numbers with 3 x 2 litre 8A/55B foam extinguishers alone, but taking up a moderate amount of additional space versus powder. 
 

Incidentally, has anyone fitted an automatic extinguisher in a cruiser stern engine bay? I had considered it, but the only option seems to be dry powder (the FE36 gas one has been discontinued) and the operating temperature is quoted as 79 ±5C. I know the calorifier which is also under there can regularly get to 70-75C-ish.
 

8 hours ago, TNLI said:

this is what I think the BSS Regs should be:

Take it up with BSS office then! In the meantime you are free to have pretty much as many additional fire extinguishers of almost whatever type you like, as long as they include a minimum quantity that meet the BSS specified requirement 😎

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Amerex 2.5 Gal. Water Extinguisher with Wall Hook - Model 240 (Part #0 - Beacon Fire Supply

 

OK, so if you want to buy the real thing, it seems that you have to order it from the USA, as the link is for the exact fire extinguisher I have, which can be filled with a mixture of anti freeze and water if you live in the artic, otherwise the lower temperature limit is 40f for an extinguisher purchased in the UK, although the pre filled ones contain some kind of fire retardant that makes the water more effective. The US ones are shipped empty. If you are interested in buying one, ask the UK dealer what the score is, as it might be the same model, but for legal reasons they can't say it can be recharged by the user.

  You can pump them up with a good car foot pump, or plug in electric pump, BUT it takes quite a while, and can be done far faster at a garage or fuel station air line.

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3 minutes ago, TNLI said:

can be done far faster at a garage or fuel station air line.

 

I can see that would be very handy mid-Atlantic.

 

Are they rated for hydrogen storage tank fires?

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Accident Investigator Cites Lithium Liabilities (substack.com)

 

Very interesting if you are thinking of using Lithium batteries that's one funny but true article. 

 

   The fire from lithium batteries cannot be extinguished by conventional suppression agents, so you’ll need to figure out your own system. Vast quantities of water seem to work. So, you could install a dedicated sensor, through-hull, water pump, and flooding software. I’m sure that someone will figure out a Bluetooth-connected app so you can remotely sink your boat to prevent it from burning.

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51 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Accident Investigator Cites Lithium Liabilities (substack.com)

 

Very interesting if you are thinking of using Lithium batteries that's one funny but true article. 

 

   The fire from lithium batteries cannot be extinguished by conventional suppression agents, so you’ll need to figure out your own system. Vast quantities of water seem to work. So, you could install a dedicated sensor, through-hull, water pump, and flooding software. I’m sure that someone will figure out a Bluetooth-connected app so you can remotely sink your boat to prevent it from burning.

 

I note the linked article did not seem to specify the LI technology they are discussing. Some types are far more fire resistant  than others.That is why on here those who know recommend only LiFePo4 batteries and other types that seem to be available online and removed from cars.

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LIPO4.jpg.a8fb40da23639d7321624fdbc55ed061.jpg

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I note the linked article did not seem to specify the LI technology they are discussing. Some types are far more fire resistant  than others.That is why on here those who know recommend only LiFePo4 batteries and other types that seem to be available online and removed from cars.

Microsoft Word - LiPo_battery_safety.docx (uvm.edu)

 

The only difference when the BMS fails and the battery over heats, is that a LiPO battery catches fire, rather than explodes. The complexity of the wiring and even software associated with LiPO batteries and regen drive systems is nuts in reliability and safety terms. There are a very few companies in Germany and the US that do seem to make more reliable LIPO systems that are waterproof and fail safe, but they are incredibly expensive. The other so called LiPO expert companies are just selling imported far Eastern junk.

  It's worth reading the warnings on the right side of this Fleabay LiPO4 special.

 

The internet search engines go nuts when you type in 12V Lithium battery, which I find very irritating, as no one is checking the safety of the new imports or if they are real LiPO4 batteries or not. No checks on all the waterproof BMS systems to see if they really are suitable for a boat. It's only the fire brigade and insurance companies that are trying to reduce the number of fires. Force 4 were selling a very nice 12V marine Nicad a few years ago, but I can't find it online. Anyone know where that type of 12V battery is being sold??

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8 hours ago, TNLI said:

It's worth reading the warnings on the right side of this Fleabay LiPO4 special.

 

The picture you have posted is one of the better LiFePO4 batteries available.

 

It's about as far from a noname eBay special as you can get.

 

From a little company called Sterling Power, even you might have heard of them ...

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The picture you have posted is one of the better LiFePO4 batteries available.

 

It's about as far from a noname eBay special as you can get.

 

From a little company called Sterling Power, even you might have heard of them ...

 

 

I did not know Sterling power were in China, and it says Unit 8, Wassage in Blighty for the one man and a dog marketing company, so is that where Sterling power reside ?. No chance of tracing the actual Chinese manufacturer.

   I'm still looking at which small 28 or 48V motors to use, if I decide to sell my beloved BMC 1500 cos by go green daughter does not like diesels. I'm going to finish the engine rebuild and keep it in the garage whilst changing tack to the forward cabin interior.

 

Just cos it says LiPO4 on the case, does not mean it is, they make very good quality labels in China. I don't think this battery includes an expensive BMS, but will take a look at the required charger.

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23 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I did not know Sterling power were in China, and it says Unit 8, Wassage in Blighty for the one man and a dog marketing company, so is that where Sterling power reside ?. No chance of tracing the actual Chinese manufacturer.

   I'm still looking at which small 28 or 48V motors to use, if I decide to sell my beloved BMC 1500 cos by go green daughter does not like diesels. I'm going to finish the engine rebuild and keep it in the garage whilst changing tack to the forward cabin interior.

 

Just cos it says LiPO4 on the case, does not mean it is, they make very good quality labels in China. I don't think this battery includes an expensive BMS, but will take a look at the required charger.

 

Fleabay:

12V 100Ah Lithium Leisure Battery campervan / RV / marine E-marking BLUETOOTH | eBay

 

Now this one is odd as it says LiFe/LiPO4 and the first one is a potential bomb, and the second is potential a difficult toxic ball of fire if you download the wrong App or suffer a loose connection. 

NiCads are good and you don't need expensive chargers or a blue teeth.

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47 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I don't think this battery includes an expensive BMS, but will take a look at the required charger.

 

Sigh.

 

47 minutes ago, TNLI said:

I did not know Sterling power were in China, and it says Unit 8, Wassage in Blighty for the one man and a dog marketing company

 

Sigh again.

 

Here's a tip, visit the website shown on the battery label:

 

www.ampsystems.co.uk

 

See what you can learn.

 

You posted a picture of a 60Ah battery that will charge at 50A, discharge at 120A and comes with a 5 year warranty as long as it's not connected directly to an alternator.  The BMS you don't think it has probably accounts for around a third of the £360 price ...

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, TNLI said:

Now this one is odd as it says LiFe/LiPO4

 

No, it doesn't.  Anywhere in the listing.

 

What it does say is LiFePO4 which is the cell chemistry used in the battery.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you are not only a troll but are simply incapable of understanding stuff you read.

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