Over Plating

[Saint Paul]

I am looking to purchase a boat which was over plated (bottom) some six years ago.

Does anyone have any opinions of the likely lifespan of over plating or any other advice; negative or positive!

Naturally I would have a survey done.

[Mad Harold]

5 minutes ago, Saint Paul said:

I am looking to purchase a boat which was over plated (bottom) some six years ago.

Does anyone have any opinions of the likely lifespan of over plating or any other advice; negative or positive!

Naturally I would have a survey done.

There will be many opinions on overplating.

Some won't touch an overplated boat, others are quite happy with overplating,and some will buy a boat that needs overplating in order to ensure it is done properly.

If you go to the top of the page and put in "overplating", there has recently been a long discussion on this subject.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Negative I'm afraid.

 

I would never buy a boat that was overplated - buy one that needed overplating - yes !, but already done - No!

 

You have no idea to what standard the over plating was done, at least if you buy a boat that needs doing you can control the standard to which it is done, but was tjis one done as a 'basic job to get it so it was sellable ?

 

It has lasted 6 years, but what condition is the inside of the steel, is water sandwiched in between the old base metal and the new metal ?

 

What size boat is it ?

Overplating a smallish boat can have a serious effect on its stability.

 

An inquiry into a smallish Springer Narrowboat that sank to be being 'overweight' and sitting too low into the water due to the additional plating

 

 

Other opinions are available

 

Overplated NB Sinks on the Thames.docx Dangers of overplating.docx

Edited March 1, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Tom Morgan]

So many mistakes,there in your file, Alan!  Buying overplated on the strength of a seller's survey, without a survey of their own, taking an unfamiliar boat out onto the Thames as a first trip, no lifejackets, no insurance.  It was a tregedy waiting to happen and they were lucky that they all survived it.  

Edited March 1, 2022 by Tom Morgan

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tom Morgan said:

So many mistakes,there in your file, Alan!  Buying overplated on the strength of a seller's survey, without a survey of their own, taking an unfamiliar boat out onto the Thames as a first trip, no lifejackets, no insurance.  It was a tregedy waiting to happen and they were lucky that they all survived it.  

 

 

Not my file, it was an MAIB enquiry.

 

Yes many errors, but the sinking was down to over-zealous overplating with no consideration to the effects on draft and stability.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

There will be many opinions on overplating.

 

Mine is it depends why it was done. 

 

I suspect thousands of boats have been overplated for no good reason whatever, other than to satisfy the whim of a chair polisher in an insurance office somewhere who has never even been on a canal boat, and who thinks 4mm of steel is not good enough to keep the water out. 

 

If on the other hand the bilge pump was running for five minutes every hour, then overplating extended the life of a rust bucket giving it a dozen or more years of borrowed time before it finally sinks...

 

 

[Tacet]

18 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Not my file, it was an MAIB enquiry.

 

Yes many errors, but the sinking was down to over-zealous overplating with no consideration to the effects on draft and stability.

It was not a MAIB enquiry - it would have been much better if it was.  It was a Safety Bulletin from the PLA albeit repeated by MAIB.

 

The overplating cannot have helped (unless ballast was removed - which is unstated) but other than an out-of-the-water estimate, there is no indication of how much freeboard was available prior to the overplating.

 

My guess (no more) is that the boat took on some water when it was being craned in, which exacerbated the limited freeboard.   Even when overplated it had 65mm freeboard to the air intake (more to gunnel/coaming) which is enough, if it remains that way.  Some splashing from the Thames is likely to enter the air intake - but it would take a little while to build-up.  I am not greatly persuaded by the three-persons-and-a-dog greatly weighing down the stern theory either; this should have been checked when the boat was refloated; 

 

Certainly an unsafe vessel that definitely sank.  And pushing its luck with the freeboard but the investigation was insufficient thorough to ascertain the reasons (or more likely, combination of reasons) for its going-down.

[Scholar Gypsy]

Here's the published PLA report, with photos.  They were very lucky!  I was pondering this yesterday while moving a boat from South Dock to West India....

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb1of2012-narrowboatsinking-inadequateventsfreeboard1.pdf

There are a number of interesting points in other bulletins:  http://www.pla.co.uk/Safety/SMS/Safety-Bulletins

Edited March 3, 2022 by Scholar Gypsy

[MtB]

On 01/03/2022 at 15:16, Alan de Enfield said:

An inquiry into a smallish Springer Narrowboat that sank to be being 'overweight' and sitting too low into the water due to the additional plating

 

 

 

Point of Order...

 

I can't see any mention in the report of it being a Springer in particular. Also, the photo in the report of the counter shows a conventional swim and uxter plate, rather than the "V" shaped base plate and weird counter design that most (if not all) Springers have.

 

 

Also, looking at the photo, it appears the air intake freeboard WAS considered by the over-platers who appear to have raised it by the width of the rubbing band and inserted a blanking plate. The whole idea of cutting holes through the hull for air cooling strikes me as stupid though, as the result is highly predictable.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

39 minutes ago, MtB said:

I can't see any mention in the report of it being a Springer in particular.

 

It was reported on this very forum as being a Springer - in fact it was a boat known to a forum member who was in the same marina as it was kept before being sold.

But - I agree it doesn't look like a V-Hull. Did Sam build any non-V Hulled boats ?

[john.k]

A large size crisp packet and tube of the sticky stuff would have saved the day........three people increase displacement how much??.....was it a weight watchers  outing?

[Captain Pegg]

On 01/03/2022 at 15:05, Saint Paul said:

I am looking to purchase a boat which was over plated (bottom) some six years ago.

Does anyone have any opinions of the likely lifespan of over plating or any other advice; negative or positive!

Naturally I would have a survey done.

 

A survey is your best bet for understanding the quality of the overplating, much the same as for any hull. A good surveyor will know what they are looking for. As others have stated trying to understand why and how the boat was overplated is key to whether it's worth proceeding.

 

There is a risk which needs to be reflected in the price but to put things into perspective the oldest welded steel leisure boat hulls are over 50 years old and there now a lot of overplated boats on the network. You have a couple of worst case scenarios above but in the six and a half years I have been on this forum as the owner of an overplated boat I haven't noted anyone coming on with regrets - let alone horror stories - about buying an overplated boat.

 

The over plating versus re-plating debate is a little spurious since with the average leisure boat replating requires the internal fit-out to be removed. There's a time and a place for each but usually it's not a direct straight choice of one or the other.

 

The boat to which you refer is unlikely to have just the bottom replated. It is normal to overplate the bottom and the lower hull sides together.

 

As for water getting between the plates through a porous or missing weld run, in general it will be evident when the boat is docked for survey as it will leak back out again.

 

If you buy a well overplated boat there is no absolute reason why it shouldn't last for decades.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

If you buy a well overplated boat there is no absolute reason why it shouldn't last for decades.

 

Absolutely correct.

The problem comes in detrmining is it 'well overplated' and many surveyors do not seem to have the competencies to determine that.

 

I have seen overplated boats  on blocks where the base plate is 'hanging / sagging down' and it is only welded around the edges.

 

You need to employ a surveyor who is fully aware of how overplating SHOULD be done so he can look for tell-tale signs such as plug welds across the length and width of the plate. He should examine the hull from the inside to determine the condition of the original hull - has it got 'live corrosion', is it damp etc etc.

A properly qualified surveyor should know what he is looking for, the problem we have, is that anyone (with or without qualifications) can call themselves a surveyor.

 

Membership of a 'body' does not a surveyor make.

[Bee]

Exactly as Capt. Pegg says. My first new boat will be 45 yrs old now, I would imagine it is still afloat somewhere but back then boats were very seldom painted underneath and the sides just had a coat or two of tarry goo, the sides were 3/16" and the bottom was1/4  I would bet my entire life savings that it has been overplated and maybe more than once. I would also bet somewhat less than my life savings that the above water part is still OK and that it would be entirely possible to cut the bottom off, re frame it and replate it and start the whole process again and it would still be worth doing (maybe not in a boatyard at boatyard prices though)

[David Mack]

2 minutes ago, Bee said:

I would also bet somewhat less than my life savings that the above water part is still OK and that it would be entirely possible to cut the bottom off, re frame it and replate it and start the whole process again and it would still be worth doing (maybe not in a boatyard at boatyard prices though

 

The number of stripped out ageing shells I see up for sale on Ebay would suggest otherwise...

[Bee]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

 

The number of stripped out ageing shells I see up for sale on Ebay would suggest otherwise...

True, but a lot of these were never too great in the first place and down at the lower end of the market and starting a big project on a boat that is never going to be desirable is hardly worth it. The early years of leisure boat building threw up some right horrors, a bit like some replica 'Dutch barges', you wonder if the builders had ever bothered to even look at a picture of the real things.

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

The number of stripped out ageing shells I see up for sale on Ebay would suggest otherwise...

 

I think that's due to buyers totally underestimating the enormity of a 'project boat'. Buy it for £10k expecting to do it up in a few weekends and a few hundred quid in paint, then after stripping it out the reality slowly dawns....

 

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A properly qualified surveyor should know what he is looking for,

 

 

So this gets discussed here every few months and I don't ever remember a conclusion being reached. What qualification(s) does a "properly qualified surveyor" actually hold?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, MtB said:

So this gets discussed here every few months and I don't ever remember a conclusion being reached. What qualification(s) does a "properly qualified surveyor" actually hold?

 

 

 

There are a number of requirements to be a 'qualified surveyor' depending on what you want to survey or to 'do'. Surveying covers everything from a small 'leisure' boat to approving the design of 'super tankers before building can start.

 

As a 'yacht & small ships surveyor' you can apply for membership of the IIMS as a graduate member if you have a Diploma or Bachelors degree in Marine Surveying, or allied course. After 5 years experience you can then apply to become a 'Full member'.

 

The "Maritime Training Academy", makes this point on what completion of their course means .............

 

 

Will I become a qualified Surveyor upon successful completion?

Surveyors are not required to be licensed or qualified hence standards vary considerably in the industry. Completing this course will give you crucial knowledge and understanding. Furthermore there is the option to progress through levels two and three gaining further work based knowledge and competence.

Can I carry out a survey on completion?

The responsibility for an individual to carry out a survey or not rests entirely on that individual. It is suggested that before carrying out any sort of survey you make sure you have suitable insurance and legal cover.

The course is structured to cover all the areas of expertise a new Surveyor will need in order to establish himself / herself in business to perform satisfactory surveys.

 

Advice on how to become a successful Marine Surveyor (maritimetrainingacademy.com)

 

The Diploma Course

 

Ship Surveying Course | Ship Surveyor Course - MTA (maritimetrainingacademy.com)

Edited March 3, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

I think that's due to buyers totally underestimating the enormity of a 'project boat'. Buy it for £10k expecting to do it up in a few weekends and a few hundred quid in paint, then after stripping it out the reality slowly dawns....

Indeed. But the buyer of a tidy boat in need of replating could easily find themselves in a similar position part way through...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

8 hours ago, MtB said:

 

So this gets discussed here every few months and I don't ever remember a conclusion being reached. What qualification(s) does a "properly qualified surveyor" actually hold?

 

 

REPUTATION 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Goliath said:

REPUTATION 

 

I'm not sure that's a particularly good guide either. I received spectacularly bad service and was very unhappy with one well known and apparently highly reputable surveyor. For reasons unknown to me he decided to get involved in the negotiations between myself and the vendor, even though we'd talked about this beforehand and he assured me he wouldn't. That episode ended up costing me a couple of grand and I couldn't help thinking that he'd been "knobbled" by the vendor when I wasn't looking in return for a fee. He also missed some really basic stuff that he should have found in his survey. 

 

Yet when new members ask for recommendations for surveyors in the south/Midlands his name always comes up. So highly reputable yet decidedly dodgy in my opinion.

Edited March 3, 2022 by blackrose

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, Goliath said:

REPUTATION 

 

I doubt that is good enough for insurance companies relying on the opinion of a surveyor when issuing policies. 

 

They WILL want a piece of paper with stuff written on it....

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

45 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I doubt that is good enough for insurance companies relying on the opinion of a surveyor when issuing policies. 

 

They WILL want a piece of paper with stuff written on it....

 

Shit the bed! 
Really?

46 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

I'm not sure that's a particularly good guide either. I received spectacularly bad service and was very unhappy with one well known and apparently highly reputable surveyor. For reasons unknown to me he decided to get involved in the negotiations between myself and the vendor, even though we'd talked about this beforehand and he assured me he wouldn't. That episode ended up costing me a couple of grand and I couldn't help thinking that he'd been "knobbled" by the vendor when I wasn't looking in return for a fee. He also missed some really basic stuff that he should have found in his survey. 

 

Yet when new members ask for recommendations for surveyors in the south/Midlands his name always comes up, so highly reputable yet decidedly dodgy in my opinion.

Well there’s no hope then.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Shit the bed! 
Really?

 

Well you're the one claiming REPUTATION is what counts! 

 

Can you nominate an insurance company that accepts REPUTATION rather than qualifications in a surveyor? 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Why not try some one with both 

 

just saying

 

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