Harland and Wolff 1989, does anybody know how the built quality was back then?

[VandeBloom]

Hello lovely boaters,

Many thanks for helping me out regarding the Widebeam I asked about moored in London, regarding being overpriced or not recently - I ended up heeding everyone's advice on here and looking elsewhere! 🙂 Currently I found a VERY beautifully restored and newly fitted boat, being newly blacked, having a BSS until 2025 and seeming to be in pristine condition. She was built by Harland and Wolff in 1989. Have already put my deposit down (I do love her, I can't help it!) and scheduled a pre - purchase survey on a marina nearby. So today I spoke to the surveyor and he said that he "believes" that Harland and Wolff did built narrowboats with a 6mm thick bottom plate and said that might be a problem given the age. Bear in mind, he hasn't surveyed the boat yet. So I was trying to find some information about how their narrowboats were built back then and as I only found out that they built the Titanic, I didn't get much further... So I thought I'd have to turn to the lovely boating community on the web! Does anybody know about built quality, build characteristics, anything about the make or might even have experience with a boat of similar age of this make? Any information would be very much appreciated! 

 

With many thanks to everyone in advance! 🙂

[zenataomm]

37 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

Hello lovely boaters,

Many thanks for helping me out regarding the Widebeam I asked about moored in London, regarding being overpriced or not recently - I ended up heeding everyone's advice on here and looking elsewhere! 🙂 Currently I found a VERY beautifully restored and newly fitted boat, being newly blacked, having a BSS until 2025 and seeming to be in pristine condition. She was built by Harland and Wolff in 1989. Have already put my deposit down (I do love her, I can't help it!) and scheduled a pre - purchase survey on a marina nearby. So today I spoke to the surveyor and he said that he "believes" that Harland and Wolff did built narrowboats with a 6mm thick bottom plate and said that might be a problem given the age. Bear in mind, he hasn't surveyed the boat yet. So I was trying to find some information about how their narrowboats were built back then and as I only found out that they built the Titanic, I didn't get much further... So I thought I'd have to turn to the lovely boating community on the web! Does anybody know about built quality, build characteristics, anything about the make or might even have experience with a boat of similar age of this make? Any information would be very much appreciated! 

 

With many thanks to everyone in advance! 🙂

Well now, I have never come across any evidence that any H&W boat/ship yard survived in London after 1972.

When they closed it appears they weren't building but maintaining and repairing craft such as lighters. (Harland and Wolff - Shipbuilding and Engineering Works (theyard.info)

As widely known, the last long distance narrow boats were the Big Woolwich 7ft beam built in 1937.

Wide beam and 1989 simply makes no sense to me.

 

I am concerned about the abilities of the surveyor you are employing, if he thinks that.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Back in the '80s baseplates were usually 6mm or some were 8mm.

H&W would have bought decent steel being proper shipbuilders. They have stood the test of time well, there are still lots about. But they must have built the boat much earlier than 1989, I think most date from the '60s into the early '70s

Even a later boat with a 10mm baseplate can be corroded badly, all depends how they are treated. Until quite recently very few boats had the baseplate blacked or epoxy coated, just bare steel left in the water for years without being looked at.

Any pits that leave less than 4mm of steel between the inside and the water will result in most insurers only offering 3rd party insurance. Harsh but that is their opinion.

If its  a basket case with lots of deep pits, walk away, its a money pit.

All you can do is get a good hull survey and decide from there, If there are a few pits, consider getting them filled with weld and having the baseplate grit blasted clean and epoxy coated, 3 coats is best.

I would avoid having the baseplate or hull sides over plated. It devalues a boat and unless done properly by a good fabricator it can be worse than leaving the original alone.

 

The best treatment would be something like Debdale Wharf's strip, weld pits, zinc spray and 2 pack epoxy. They will give a 10 year guarantee.  Not cheap but not as expensive as some think and you know its done well. Its a week's work in their special bay.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Tracy D'arth

[VandeBloom]

23 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Well now, I have never come across any evidence that any H&W boat/ship yard survived in London after 1972.

When they closed it appears they weren't building but maintaining and repairing craft such as lighters. (Harland and Wolff - Shipbuilding and Engineering Works (theyard.info)

As widely known, the last long distance narrow boats were the Big Woolwich 7ft beam built in 1937.

Wide beam and 1989 simply makes no sense to me.

 

I am concerned about the abilities of the surveyor you are employing, if he thinks that.

 

23 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

 

 

Thank you so much for the reply and sorry, I might have expressed myself confusingly - the Widebeam was a boat I had looked into (by Liverpool Boats) and had asked in the forum about it recently, so I just thanked everyone who had answered to it in a separate post. 

 

The boat I'm currently looking at is a Narrowboat by Harland and Wolff and is 62ft long. She is a beauty and was at least very well maintained for the past 4 years, unfortunately I don't have much information about the 30years prior though - if she hasn't in fact been restored already back then. She might be an Oldtimer!😊  

 

 

Thank you for the link, I shall look it up right now. 😊

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If you buy it, don't take it out if there is ice on the canal. That boat builder doesn't have a good reputation in this respect.

 

By Willy Stöwer - Magazine Die Gartenlaube, en:Die Gartenlaube and de:Die Gartenlaube, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=97646

[VandeBloom]

31 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Back in the '80s baseplates were usually 6mm or some were 8mm.

H&W would have bought decent steel being proper shipbuilders. They have stood the test of time well, there are still lots about. But they must have built the boat much earlier than 1989, I think most date from the '60s into the early '70s

Even a later boat with a 10mm baseplate can be corroded badly, all depends how they are treated. Until quite recently very few boats had the baseplate blacked or epoxy coated, just bare steel left in the water for years without being looked at.

Any pits that leave less than 4mm of steel between the inside and the water will result in most insurers only offering 3rd party insurance. Harsh but that is their opinion.

If its  a basket case with lots of deep pits, walk away, its a money pit.

All you can do is get a good hull survey and decide from there, If there are a few pits, consider getting them filled with weld and having the baseplate grit blasted clean and epoxy coated, 3 coats is best.

I would avoid having the baseplate or hull sides over plated. It devalues a boat and unless done properly by a good fabricator it can be worse than leaving the original alone.

 

The best treatment would be something like Debdale Wharf's strip, weld pits, zinc spray and 2 pack epoxy. They will give a 10 year guarantee.  Not cheap but not as expensive as some think and you know its done well. Its a week's work in their special bay.

Thank you so much Tracy, for the detailed reply! I'll screenshot it and get back to it once I have more news about the hull's condition, may follow this advice rather than plating then (if this topic should come up!). At least I'm reassured that the make will have used high quality steel! I just hope there is something left by now in 2022!😅 Thank you so much for your help! 🙂

1 minute ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If you buy it, don't take it out if there is ice on the canal. That boat builder doesn't have a good reputation in this respect.

 

By Willy Stöwer - Magazine Die Gartenlaube, en:Die Gartenlaube and de:Die Gartenlaube, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=97646

😂😂😂😂😂 Thank you so much for making me aware of the caution I'd need to take around icebergs in case of choosing to cruise this specific boat of said make...😂😂😂 I'm glad someone pointed it out me! 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

If it is actually made by H&W, then it is possibly historic and older than is being given. If it dates to carrying days, rather than early leisure days, this site might have more details, if you have the name and/or index number: https://hnbc.org.uk/

Worth a try.

Jen

[Rose Narrowboats]

Could this be the ex-hire boat (from somewhere on the L&L IIRC) that has previously been incorrectly advertised as built by Harland & Wolff?

[matty40s]

I have seen this H&W advertised boat and it ISN'T. It's a bog standard 1980s boat being advertised fraudulently.

It probably HAS got 6mm plate originally, what it has now your surveyor will find out. However, if you have told your surveyor the year of your H&W boat, and he hasnt questioned the provenance, then I suggest you change surveyors quickly.

[Tim Lewis]

I wouldm't get a H & W built boat, were are having to put a new bottom on ours and it is only 85 years old!

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Tim Lewis

[Tonka]

Their were some narrowboats built by Harland & Wolff apprentices. I belive Hull 29 is one of them. 

[VandeBloom]

12 hours ago, matty40s said:

I have seen this H&W advertised boat and it ISN'T. It's a bog standard 1980s boat being advertised fraudulently.

It probably HAS got 6mm plate originally, what it has now your surveyor will find out. However, if you have told your surveyor the year of your H&W boat, and he hasnt questioned the provenance, then I suggest you change surveyors quickly.

Hi Matty, thanks so much for your answer and insight - I looked up all the information about the Harland + Wolff wharf in Woolwich and concluded myself that she's either ancient OR simply not a Harland + Wolff boat. Furthermore it made me really question how come my surveyor seemed to barely know the make - given how big they were in England for such a long time and him being a marine engineer, one would think he came across them in one way or the other... Oh well, I may call up the vendor and see what I may be able to find out! Thanks everyone for the precious help!

[GUMPY]

Something deep in the back of my brain tells me that 30+ years ago there was a company building boats in an industrial unit in Daventry with a very similar name to H&W but I can't remember the details 😠

[Tonka]

Hancock and Lane

[matty40s]

I would say that Loddon and Tonka have it right between them.

[GUMPY]

34 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Hancock and Lane

Thank you, as soon as I read it I remembered.

 

 

7 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I would say that Loddon and Tonka have it right between them.

That seems it could be right and the person that said H&W got confused.

 

As an aside H&W now run my local shipyard in Appledore😉

Edited February 17, 2022 by Loddon

[Bacchus]

2 hours ago, matty40s said:

I would say that Loddon and Tonka have it right between them.

 

I see that one is currently on "the duck" with the comment "Price has been reduced so please do not ask for Surveys etc" which would be a bit of a red flag to me... To be fair the asking price isn't high in the current market and it looks to be floating!

 

[Rose Narrowboats]

Also worth noting that if it is a Hancock & Lane it will be at least 5 years older than it claims to be.

[Bee]

If I remember correctly (doubtful) Tonka has it right, I think I can remember narrow boats being built by Harland & Wolf and advertised for sale, we aren't talking about a great big shipyard, I think it was ex employees who had a short lived business venture that didn't last long. Somebody somewhere will know more.

[VandeBloom]

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all the above information, as well about the slight name - twin! I spoke to the owner and I asked him about the boat's potential origin. On the licensing it says it's a Harland and Wolff made in Glasgow. Year of manufacture 1989. So... The wharf in Glasgow shut down in 1966. Looking at the boat's bow, she does come the "Themis'" on theyard's (history about Harland and Wolff as ship makers) website very, very close, with the slightly more rounded appearance around the bow than other narrowboats might display. So ... I'm wondering, could there be the possibility that this boat might have been refurbished/totally overhauled in 1989, given a new name and sold with a new birthday? Is this something anyone might have heard of having happened in the past with elderly boats?

 

Based on all this confusion I contacted the yard's person (Harland and Wolff person) and sent him photos with the contradicting information I'm having, specifically as the make is in the boat's license with this year of manufacture. Probably at least he could determine the boat's make or let me know if they did leave serial numbers or years of manufacture somewhere in the boat behind which could give more insight. Would be incredibly thrilled if she was a historic boat... But I'll see what happens next!

[Tonka]

12 minutes ago, Bee said:

If I remember correctly (doubtful) Tonka has it right, I think I can remember narrow boats being built by Harland & Wolf and advertised for sale, we aren't talking about a great big shipyard, I think it was ex employees who had a short lived business venture that didn't last long. Somebody somewhere will know more.

I was told by the owner of Hull 25 that it was built by Harland & Wolff apprentices. Apparently it was their 25th hull, hence the name. He sold it a couple of years ago. I also think that there were some charity boats built by them but can't remember the boats names 

[VandeBloom]

13 minutes ago, Bee said:

If I remember correctly (doubtful) Tonka has it right, I think I can remember narrow boats being built by Harland & Wolf and advertised for sale, we aren't talking about a great big shipyard, I think it was ex employees who had a short lived business venture that didn't last long. Somebody somewhere will know more.

Ha! Very interesting, had a very long chat with my dad about all these findings today and he suggested something similar could have happened after the wharfs officially shut down. Some former employees still must have had all the knowhow to built those boats - so he(my father) did have exactly this thought coming up - that in agreement to the former bosses some might have been allowed to keep going under the former name. 

 

In case that anyone might know a little more about this, please do share with us. 🙂

[magnetman]

It's got a very unusual style of handrail.

 

Superficially it looks a bit like a Hancock and Lane but that handrail is something else. 

 

[VandeBloom]

4 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I was told by the owner of Hull 25 that it was built by Harland & Wolff apprentices. Apparently it was their 25th hull, hence the name. He sold it a couple of years ago. I also think that there were some charity boats built by them but can't remember the boats names 

Thank you, Tonka, I shall now go and google hull 25, apprentices, Harland and Wolff! 🙂

[David Mack]

27 minutes ago, VandeBloom said:

On the licensing it says it's a Harland and Wolff made in Glasgow. Year of manufacture 1989.

That simply means that someone licensing the boat declared that. Nobody at BW/CRT checks that info. So it may or may not be true.