Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 When you get your finished boat, you could always do the test of running it at full electric power for at least a couple of hours in the water. That way you will have no worries when on the rivers, you could monitor the temperature and power consumption, battery performance and put your findings on here, then you can reassure the people that you say think this is an essential requirement.

 

I plan to do just that if/when I get the chance -- but I know Finesse have already done this, and don't expect any different result given what I've seen about the quality of their design.

 

Whether to publish anything on CWDF is another issue entirely, since any attempt to promote any new(-ish) technology seems to arouse the wrath of so many people on here... 😞

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

And I was hoping to find out when I would be able to change to HVO

And I was hoping to find out when I would be able to change to HVO

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

Never said I was, in fact I keep saying exactly the opposite... 😉

 

I said that there are several people on the forum who have clearly said that the ability to maintain "full power" for at least two hours (or more) for use on rivers is essential for them to consider switching to an electric/hybrid boat -- all you have to do is go back through the many electric boat threads, this is a comment that often recurs. I agree with them. If we want to see wh=idespread conversion to electric boats then people who want to be able to do this need to be satisfied.

 

You don't see the need for this since you rarely (never?) take your wideboat out under these conditions. That's fine, don't do this then.

 

But don't then come out as saying "This isn't needed because... [butties, tides...]", because yet again you're putting forward your opinion as if this is a universal fact. It isn't.

 

And neither is mine, but at least I admit it... 😉

What I am saying is real beaters, not toy ones like us, operated on the Trent with large boats and no engines or low power engines. Clearly they were better boaters than us? All you can come back with is toy boaters have to have huge engines to use tidal waters! Which might be the case for some but not all, PD1965 has obviously been on the Trent a lot as he used to deliver boats all over the country, but maybe he doesn't have as much experience as yourself? Me I have been on the trent numerous times and the only problem I have had is with rubbish on my prop. When a lock keeper sent me out late I stopped rather than trying to push the tide, it's easier doesn't waste fuel and ultimately safer. 

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

What I am saying is real beaters, not toy ones like us, operated on the Trent with large boats and no engines or low power engines. Clearly they were better boaters than us? All you can come back with is toy boaters have to have huge engines to use tidal waters! Which might be the case for some but not all, PD1965 has obviously been on the Trent a lot as he used to deliver boats all over the country, but maybe he doesn't have as much experience as yourself? Me I have been on the trent numerous times and the only problem I have had is with rubbish on my prop. When a lock keeper sent me out late I stopped rather than trying to push the tide, it's easier doesn't waste fuel and ultimately safer. 

 

As usual, you're putting words into my mouth that I didn't say, and opinions that I don't hold. There's no point carrying on discussing with you if you keep doing this.

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

I plan to do just that if/when I get the chance -- but I know Finesse have already done this, and don't expect any different result given what I've seen about the quality of their design.

 

Whether to publish anything on CWDF is another issue entirely, since any attempt to promote any new(-ish) technology seems to arouse the wrath of so many people on here... 😞

 

I think may of us will be very interested but if it gets hijacked by the "my way to electrification is the only way" and "anyone who expresses concerns is just plain wrong" brigade will again spoil an informative topic.

[Momac]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And I was hoping to find out when I would be able to change to HVO

 

Me also .

 

I hope we  will get there some day. The supply of HVO did at one point seem like a possibility and is without doubt a good solution for boats as  an alternative to changing to electric propulsion.

But as seem almost to be normal other factors in the world that most of us  had not expected have come into play.

 

At the moment the use of HVO  seems like a non starter due to the price  (unless someone knows differently)  . I would have thought HVO could have been priced at present  under the price of diesel  but it seems the HVO industry is being greedy like everyone else.

 

Industry at present seems happy to make less and make the consumer pay more.  And they will continue to do so as long as people continue to pay.

 

 

 

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think may of us will be very interested but if it gets hijacked by the "my way to electrification is the only way" and "anyone who expresses concerns is just plain wrong" brigade will again spoil an informative topic.

 

I hope I've never said my way is the only way, only that I think it's the best way for me (and presumably others with the same viewpoint) -- and for sure, anyone who promotes electrification (for cars or boats) as the "perfick" solution for everyone without having concerns about it (cost, charging, heating...) is frankly an idiot... 😉

 

It's a solution which will eventually happen for canal boats in the same way as for cars, but it will take a long time for (most) diesels to disappear -- longer than for cars -- and the charging network issue still has no feasible solution, though one could certainly be devised given sufficient interest and focus from CART and the government. Without this heating is as big or a bigger problem than propulsion, and less easy to solve with solar especially in winter when it's really needed.

 

Until then a tank of HVO to run a generator and boiler will be needed, and apart from the cost of this (though usage is greatly reduced) it reduces the CO2 benefit of switching from diesel to electric propulsion... 😞

19 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Me also .

 

I hope we  will get there some day. The supply of HVO did at one point seem like a possibility and is without doubt a good solution for boats as  an alternative to changing to electric propulsion.

But as seem almost to be normal other factors in the world that most of us  had not expected have come into play.

 

At the moment the use of HVO  seems like a non starter due to the price  (unless someone knows differently)  . I would have thought HVO could have been priced at present  under the price of diesel  but it seems the HVO industry is being greedy like everyone else.

 

Industry at present seems happy to make less and make the consumer pay more.  And they will continue to do so as long as people continue to pay.

 

 

It's probably also an issue of supply and demand; while HVO is only used on a very small scale the cost will be higher. Given the CO2 advantages it would also make sense for the government to reduce tax on it compared to diesel to encourage its use, but they don't seem to want to do this in spite of it being a "green" policy... 😞

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

I hope I've never said my way is the only way, only that I think it's the best way for me

 

That is how I read your posts so I can't have been talking about you

[PD1964]

 I would say, to use the excuse that they will not consider an electric engine/boat as it needs to run full power for at least a couple of hours on a river, is a lame and nonsense excuse. I have never used full power on a river and by that I mean near max revs, @IanD will have some equation Hp/revs x Kw + Py squared, that he will explain full power, but max revs is what people understand. Electric motors completely different to diesel, I don’t know the % of power they call full power I image 95-100% of the Kw ratingd?? But if you have to punch the tide for a couple of hours at full max revs on a diesel, you have miscalculated your timing or been given the wrong bad advise or you’ve decided to do it come what may.

  I would say to anyone reading this that has never done the Trent and may be put off from what they’ve read about punching the tide/full power/hours please don’t be, it’s not like that and is quite safe if you follow the correct advise.

 Please don’t be put off enjoying the Tidal rivers.

[IanD]

54 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 I would say, to use the excuse that they will not consider an electric engine/boat as it needs to run full power for at least a couple of hours on a river, is a lame and nonsense excuse. I have never used full power on a river and by that I mean near max revs, @IanD will have some equation Hp/revs x Kw + Py squared, that he will explain full power, but max revs is what people understand. Electric motors completely different to diesel, I don’t know the % of power they call full power I image 95-100% of the Kw ratingd?? But if you have to punch the tide for a couple of hours at full max revs on a diesel, you have miscalculated your timing or been given the wrong bad advise or you’ve decided to do it come what may.

  I would say to anyone reading this that has never done the Trent and may be put off from what they’ve read about punching the tide/full power/hours please don’t be, it’s not like that and is quite safe if you follow the correct advise.

 Please don’t be put off enjoying the Tidal rivers.

 

You're agreeing with what I said, which is that nobody uses "full power" (meaning, maximum power at maximum rpm) on a modern diesel for any length of time.

 

The power they actually use in this case (going upstream) will typically be around a third of "full power", maybe 2000rpm or so on a modern diesel, and this does correspond to maximum power (maybe 15hp) on either an electric boat or an old working boat like Spey, or similar traditional boats with a low-speed engine designed to run flat-out all day at full power/rpm without making you go deaf or overheating or shaking the boat to bits -- OK, maybe the last point doesn't apply to Spey... 😉

 

That's based on real experience of doing this from various people on the forum (including me), on various rivers including the Trent and the Ribble Link. So long as your boat can do this -- which pretty much any diesel can -- there is indeed nothing to worry or be scared about, so long as you don't have an undersized skin tank for cooling, or one which is full of sediment, or dirty fuel.

 

I'd be perfectly happy to do this on any well-maintained diesel boat, or the hybrid boat I'm having built. I certainly wouldn't like to do it on some of the underpowered underengineered cut-price "electric" installations I've seen, knowing how the motors and controllers and batteries are rated and cooled... 😞

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[Ian Mac]

Have been talking to people, including Crown Oil, a producer of HVO. They can not make enough, as the big boys have stepped in to use it. They are using it on things like the Sulzer Tugs and big railway trains, as they can then claim the green environmental levy, which makes it better for them for two reasons - its cheaper and better publicity. I do not think being green enters the equation! This mean us, members of the General Public, will not get a look in for ages now, as Market forces are jacking the price up and the government is not subsidising Joe Public, just its mates. There was always going to be a problem as the world can not currently grow enough stuff to turn into HVO. There are various research projects looking at how to fix that by, for example, using green algae, but that will be as far down the line as cold fusion.

I find the conversations about power requirements interesting. It is blatantly obvious some people have never done the Ribble Link for example, or watched the various You-tubes about it. Hammering out of Tarleton on a rising tide up the River Douglas, is flipping hard going, it is a real test of if you have got the engine and prop sizes correct for your boat, those that haven't, have had a pleasant time in the old Preston Docks, whilst they await the next  tide and hopefully a slot on the link. That applies to both energy sources diesel or electric.

[PD1964]

You say you were using 2000rpm, what engine was it and what did it max out at Rpm on the throttle?

 

[peterboat]

2 minutes ago, Ian Mac said:

Have been talking to people, including Crown Oil, a producer of HVO. They can not make enough, as the big boys have stepped in to use it. They are using it on things like the Sulzer Tugs and big railway trains, as they can then claim the green environmental levy, which makes it better for them for two reasons - its cheaper and better publicity. I do not think being green enters the equation! This mean us, members of the General Public, will not get a look in for ages now, as Market forces are jacking the price up and the government is not subsidising Joe Public, just its mates. There was always going to be a problem as the world can not currently grow enough stuff to turn into HVO. There are various research projects looking at how to fix that by, for example, using green algae, but that will be as far down the line as cold fusion.

I find the conversations about power requirements interesting. It is blatantly obvious some people have never done the Ribble Link for example, or watched the various You-tubes about it. Hammering out of Tarleton on a rising tide up the River Douglas, is flipping hard going, it is a real test of if you have got the engine and prop sizes correct for your boat, those that haven't, have had a pleasant time in the old Preston Docks, whilst they await the next  tide and hopefully a slot on the link. That applies to both energy sources diesel or electric.

HVO is made  from foodstock in a lot of cases it also requires hydrogen that is made from natural gas, so I suspect that the war in Ukraine that is causing world wide grain and oil shortages plus Russia cutting of 80% of the gas to Europe might have a lot to do with HVO problems? I read somewhere that the EU is passing legislation to stop food being used for fuel until the current crisis is sorted. Of course that doesn't help with the shortage of oil though 

[IanD]

22 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You say you were using 2000rpm, what engine was it and what did it max out at Rpm on the throttle?

 

 

It was a Beta 43, I expect it had the recommended 18" x 12" prop (why use anything else?).

 

The throttle wasn't at the end stop and it would certainly rev considerably higher than that; if the prop was sized correctly (which I think is what Beta do, maximum power at maximum rpm) I expect it would go all the way to 2800rpm -- but I never had to try this, because 2000rpm was plenty fast enough (even against the stream) and certainly noisy enough not to want to go much faster, I was kicking up a decent bow wave and wake as it was and the stern was starting to sit down.

 

I really don't see what point you're trying to make -- all the evidence says that something like 15hp-20hp continuously is enough for a narrowboat even on the Trent or the Ribble Link, and this doesn't need maximum rpm on a typical modern diesel (e.g. Beta 43), it needs about 2000rpm -- but it would be maximum continuous power on a lot of traditional boats or hybrid boats.

 

Are you saying this is wrong?

 

If you're saying more power than this is needed, then how did the trad boats (and hybrid boats) that have done it on 20hp or so cope?

 

FYI the Ribble Link "advice to skippers" recommends that your boat should be capable of sustaining 6mph (IIRC, might be 6 knots) in deep water for at least two hours. Would you like to guess how much power is needed to drive a typical narrowboat at this speed? 😉

 

For sure you wouldn't want to do it on a modern 20hp diesel screaming away at maximum rpm (3600?) for a couple of hours, because apart from going deaf it would be quite likely to overheat, many boats don't have big enough skin tanks for sustained maximum power. It's why people fit 40+hp modern diesels -- not because they need 40+hp, but so that they're comfortable running at half this or less at lower rpm.

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[dmr]

22 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

Well our experiment with HVO has come to an abrupt end as we can not get any delivered. We wanted 500l delivered somewhere around Oxford. Only found one company that would supply HVO at all, and they wanted us to pick it up in 20l boxes at £2.32 a litre.
The world has gone totally mad.
As for electric it will be the future, however we need cold fusion to really happen first, so that there is a realistic provision of power, and then it may be steam power rather electricity as heat is always easier to generate. One can always put your name down for a few of these http://ecatorders.com/

or wait for one of these

https://brillouinenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Brillouin-Press-Release-ICCF24-7-20-22-Final.pdf take you pick!

For those that say they do not need full power for 2hrs or more, they obviously have not done many rivers, coming down the Thames or Trent punching the tide is full power for hours, alternatively going down the big ditch we ran basically flat out for over 6hrs all the way from Manchester to EP the last 4hrs below Latchford gets really boring in that respect.

I have just spoken to my local supplier, who has been threatening to get equipped to deliver 200l drums for a while now. They say they Can now deliver 200l drums but only white, there is no real market for red so they don't keep it in stock, so I would have to take a full tanker load direct from the main depot.

When I have previously had red HVO delivered (from New Era fuels) it has been to an address near the canal, but not to the boat, which is probably a lot easier. I need some more soon so fingers crossed. It does appear to be the ideal fuel for boats (and my engine really likes it) so its a pain that its all got so complicated.

 

I still have a few months worth left in the tank, how soon will cold fussion arrive? 😀

 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

I have just spoken to my local supplier, who has been threatening to get equipped to deliver 200l drums for a while now. They say they Can now deliver 200l drums but only white, there is no real market for red so they don't keep it in stock, so I would have to take a full tanker load direct from the main depot.

When I have previously had red HVO delivered (from New Era fuels) it has been to an address near the canal, but not to the boat, which is probably a lot easier. I need some more soon so fingers crossed. It does appear to be the ideal fuel for boats (and my engine really likes it) so its a pain that its all got so complicated.

 

I still have a few months worth left in the tank, how soon will cold fussion arrive? 😀

 

 

Given that the government has publicly stated that they want inland waterways boats to go "green", and that it wouldn't take very much HVO to run all the boats on canals on it, if they were doing joined-up thinking you'd think this would be a no-brainer -- *much* cheaper and quicker and less resistance than forcing conversion to electric and rolling out charging points, surely?

 

However joined-up thinking and the current government don't seem to go well together... 😞

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

34 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

You say you were using 2000rpm, what engine was it and what did it max out at Rpm on the throttle?

 

I’ll do that down the mainline in Brum for several hours. 
My BMC engine loves it, and the boat’s in a nice stride. 
Good way to find any problems

Can’t ever remember prop size, 18” maybe?

 

Perhaps a bit naughty to do but no breaking wash just a good bow wave. It’s wide with concrete/brick edging. 
Any more revs and the boat don’t like it, not enough depth. 
 

What puts me off rivers is my engine is always in need of that tender loving care that I don’t give it. 
But I’m learning to. 
 

I’ll go across the Irish Sea with it one day. 😃
 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

29 minutes ago, dmr said:

. It does appear to be the ideal fuel for boats (and my engine really likes it) …

Can you explain how ?

I know you know your stuff

 

Cleaner fumes? Better consumption?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Interesting that the next stage in the Governments "UK Hydrogen Strategy" and ""Clean Maritime Plan 2050" take another step forward as the 'roadmap' continues to be followed (despite the influential 'it'll never happen' pundits on CWDF)

 

£150m Hydrogen plant planned to be built in Felixstowe

 

Exclusive: plant at Suffolk port is slated to produce 100megawatts of power from 2026

 

ScottishPower is planning to build a £150m green hydrogen plant at the Port of Felixstowe to power trains, trucks and ships, the Guardian can reveal.

 

ScottishPower to build £150m green hydrogen plant at Port of Felixstowe | Hydrogen power | The Guardian

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

It was a Beta 43, I expect it had the recommended 18" x 12" prop (why use anything else?).

 

The throttle wasn't at the end stop and it would certainly rev considerably higher than that; if the prop was sized correctly (which I think is what Beta do, maximum power at maximum rpm) I expect it would go all the way to 2800rpm -- but I never had to try this, because 2000rpm was plenty fast enough (even against the stream) and certainly noisy enough not to want to go much faster, I was kicking up a decent bow wave and wake as it was and the stern was starting to sit down.

 

I really don't see what point you're trying to make -- all the evidence says that something like 15hp-20hp continuously is enough for a narrowboat even on the Trent or the Ribble Link, and this doesn't need maximum rpm on a typical modern diesel (e.g. Beta 43), it needs about 2000rpm -- but it would be maximum continuous power on a lot of traditional boats or hybrid boats.

 

Are you saying this is wrong?

 

If you're saying more power than this is needed, then how did the trad boats (and hybrid boats) that have done it on 20hp or so cope?

 

FYI the Ribble Link "advice to skippers" recommends that your boat should be capable of sustaining 6mph (IIRC, might be 6 knots) in deep water for at least two hours. Would you like to guess how much power is needed to drive a typical narrowboat at this speed? 😉

 

For sure you wouldn't want to do it on a modern 20hp diesel screaming away at maximum rpm (3600?) for a couple of hours, because apart from going deaf it would be quite likely to overheat, many boats don't have big enough skin tanks for sustained maximum power. It's why people fit 40+hp modern diesels -- not because they need 40+hp, but so that they're comfortable running at half this or less at lower rpm.

The trad boats and the old keels with their JP2 20hp used the tides. I’m not really interested in what power a Narrowboat requires for 6mph, all pretty boring really, as your figures will be irrelevant, as there are too many different factors to consider, in the real world of boating.

Edited August 8, 2022 by PD1964

[GUMPY]

3 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 I would say, to use the excuse that they will not consider an electric engine/boat as it needs to run full power for at least a couple of hours on a river, is a lame and nonsense excuse.

I wouldn't consider an electric boat for the  same base reason I wont consider an electric car its to much money.

Spending at least £100k+ on a boat is nonsensical when you consider  that the canal system as we have known it will be gone in ten years.

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

The trad boats and the old keels with their JP2 20hp used the tides. I’m not really interested in what power a Narrowboat requires for 6mph, all pretty boring really, as your figures will be irrelevant, as there are too many different factors to consider, in the real world of boating.

So if you're not interested, why do you keep posting about it? 😉

36 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I wouldn't consider an electric boat for the  same base reason I wont consider an electric car its to much money.

Spending at least £100k+ on a boat is nonsensical when you consider  that the canal system as we have known it will be gone in ten years.

That's your view -- pessimistic but you're entitled to it.

 

Some people don't see the future of the canals being as bad as this... 🙂

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

The trad boats and the old keels with their JP2 20hp used the tides. I’m not really interested in what power a Narrowboat requires for 6mph, all pretty boring really, as your figures will be irrelevant, as there are too many different factors to consider, in the real world of boating.

That's not what Spey said -- are you telling me they're not traditional? And I happen to know that several such boats have successfully done the Ribble link, which kind of pooh-poohs your comment... 😉

Edited August 8, 2022 by IanD

[GUMPY]

11 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's your view -- pessimistic but you're entitled to it.

 

Some people don't see the future of the canals being as bad as this.

We will see in 2032 whether I'm right or not, at the least canals will be in terminal decline.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

We will see in 2032 whether I'm right or not, at the least canals will be in terminal decline.

You have a crystal ball then? 😉