Swapping from red diesel to HVO fuel

[IanD]

41 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Worse Martin he doesn't actually have either an electric car or boat yet, so has no practical knowledge of either subject! Its like the charging network for cars, he advocated large capital from government, when in reality large private investment is covering it nicely. But what do I know I only own an EV and have built an electric boat 

 

Yes you have. And you keep making unrealistic and unsubstantiated claims about both, and when confronted with actual facts showing you're wrong you resort to either "it works for me and my mates" or personal attacks.

[Up-Side-Down]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

No, I decided not to do a build blog because of exactly the kind of sarky uninformed personal comments appearing on this thread... 😉

Thank goodness for the generosity and time of all those with knowledge and experience in this field. Without it, and the willingness to share, the world (and this forum in particular) would be a be a far poorer place.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

 

The reason why DC is limited to 60 volts without additional measures is because of the risk from burns. Unlike AC, which passes through the zero.point 50 times a second, and thus tends to throw you off, DC doesn't.

 

It would be relatively simple to add a contactor between the banks which traps a Castell Key when closed. When switched off the key is released and can then be used to open the Castell Locks on your battery boxes.

I assume that an earth leakage trip (or whatever they are called today) could be fitted, but I don't know if you can get them rated at 500 amps????? I suspect that detecting the small leakage gets harder as the current gets higher. I also suspect that google could answer this but expect the forum will be quicker. 😀

43 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Currently it's a electric screwdriver to take the lids off.

 

Do you need a 72 volt electric  screwdriver to take the lid off a 72 volt batterey box ? 😀

[Momac]

As a little aside   

 

You don't want to be caught in that circuit. 

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Currently it's a electric screwdriver to take the lids off.

 

It's not just the battery boxes that are the problem, above 60V you can't use any of the kind of build techniques that are allowed below this -- for example exposed busbars, exposed connections. And it's not good enough to just use things like push-on insulation caps, the rules say that any safety covers must only be removable with tools or a key. And any access to circuits or components inside equipment carrying these voltages has to be proof against things being poked in through ventilation grills, for example a probe (e.g. knitting needle) or a chain -- the principle is that a small child should not be able to come along and get electrocuted, including pulling off insulation caps.

 

Any equipment that is supplied or installed is supposed to follow these rules, either by design/manufacture or installation, and the responsibility for this falls on whoever makes or installs the kit -- for example an inverter has to be certified as safe either by inspection or self-certified by the manufacturer -- who has to have people trained and qualified to do this and who signs it off. This is precisely what happens with all mains equipment, and also any HV DC equipment (>60V) like in EVs or your boat -- the manufacturers have to certify that it's safe, and anyone working on it (e.g. mechanics) has to be trained and certified to do it safely. There is an audit trail which at the end means *somebody* is responsible for the safety of the equipment, including things like self-locking cabinet access doors which can't be accidentally left unlocked -- the regulations are a minefield of little details... 😞

 

For anything you install yourself for your own use the rules don't really apply, in the same way as you can juggle with chainsaws if you want to -- if you drop one and it amputates your leg (like the Circus Archaos guy) or it kills you, that's Darwin in action. Go ahead and install your own DIY 72V propulsion system, nobody's going to stop you or check whether it meets all the rules, BSS examiners just look at it and say "yeah, that looks fine -- tick", their job is to flag stuff that is definitely unsafe or breaks the BSS rules not to check every tiny electrical installation regulation clause is met.

 

But just be warned (though it's *extremely* unlikely to happen...) that if somebody then visits your boat and their child toddles along to your lecky cupboard and opens it, and can poke live circuits inside (after pulling off a nice pretty red insulating cap) and gets electrocuted (or even dies), it's *your* personal problem if they sue you for a million quid, and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Maybe you haven't thought about this or don't realise, maybe you have and have concluded "it'll never happen, stop fearmongering", or maybe you just enjoy juggling with chainsaws, that's your business, just like base jumping or skydiving or free climbing.

 

However going out on the internet and telling other people "yeah it's dead easy and cheap to install your own boat drive system and 72V is cheaper and better than 48V" is not ethical, because for sure they won't be aware of these issues even if you are. Are you -- is this all news to you, or are you going to label it as "scaremongering", or are you really aware of the regulations and happy to take the risk? Or don't you care, life is too short to worry about a small risk of somebody dying, it'll never happen?

 

And please don't come back with the usual "I've got a boat and you haven't, I know more than you" personal attacks (but I bet you do...) -- because it's been obvious in many previous conversations that in many cases you *don't* know what you're talking about and make claims which turn out to be false or misleading, regardless of boat-owning or boat-fitting status... 😉

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

43 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I've kept pointing out that most or all of what I've done has been done before, and that what I'm doing is because it suits me, and wouldn't suit others. Some people keep repeatedly saying that I'm claiming my boat is wonderful and perfect (no it isn't -- it's a compromise, like any narrowboat) and that everyone else should have on like it, when I'm doing exactly the opposite.

 

I decided not to do a build blog because I know it would attract exactly the kind of sarky personal comments that appear on this thread, like yours... 😉

There not sarky comments, just observations about boating and boat handling on the canals, like how impractical your front end is when working your bow rope/T.Stud, yes your compromise, but I have a 6ft well deck and front doors which work much better, should you need to get off the boat quickly(fire/sinking?) or to work any snagging at the front out. I would rather have this then a bit extra storage for my socks and ‘Y’ Fronts. As I say they they are not sarky comments, just differences of opinion that get discussed on a forum.

Edited July 29, 2022 by PD1964

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Thank goodness for the generosity and time of all those with knowledge and experience in this field. Without it, and the willingness to share, the world (and this forum in particular) would be a be a far poorer place.

 

And it would be a better place if people stuck to reasoned debate instead of throwing out "alternative facts", name-calling and ad hominem attacks, and putting words into their mouths or accusing them of things they don't believe in and never said. Not much hope of that though, the usual suspects do this all the time, and this attitude has driven several knowledgeable people who made genuine contributions away from the forum.

 

Before somebody claims that I'm a hypocrite and what I posted above is an ad hominem attack, it isn't -- my arguments are always against what people say and whether it's true or not and has been in the past, not a personal attack on their beliefs or politics. This is called debating the facts... 😉

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

There not sarky comments, just observations about boating and boat handling on the canals, like how impractical your front end is when working your bow rope/T.Stud, yes your compromise, but I have a 6ft well deck and front doors which work much better, should you need to get off the boat quickly(fire/sinking?) or to work any snagging at the front out. I would rather have this then a bit extra storage for my socks and ‘Y’ Fronts, as I say there not sarky comments, just differences of opinion that get discussed on a forum.

 

I agree, and your comments are appreciated because this is just a difference in opinion, it's your preference which is different to mine -- as I keep banging on and on about.

 

Do you really think I didn't consider all the issues you mention, like a newbie who's never been on a narrowboat? I might not live on one but I have spent maybe six months in total travelling -- meaning actually cruising, not sitting moored -- round pretty much the entire canal system on boats of almost all conceivable layouts (including ones like the one I'm going for), and am well aware of how to handle boats and what works and what doesn't -- I suspect I've tried out a lot more different things in that time than many liveaboards. But I'm always willing to learn and take advice from people who genuinely *do* know better, as has become obvious talking to Ricky and Tim during the boat design process... 🙂

 

A well deck and front doors do have advantages as you mentioned, but also have disadvantages -- reduced interior space, and less than ideal with a long boat in a short leaky lock, which for certain is one of *my* concerns even if it's not yours. Same kind of comments apply about type of stern, type of propulsion, type of toilet, heating, mains setup, bow thrusters, side doors -- there's no one solution which is "the best one" for everybody, they all have pros and cons, and different people will think different solutions are the best *for them* -- which doesn't mean the same applies to everyone else.

 

I decided on my bow solution, you decided on yours, horses for courses, and such choices can be debated until the cows come home -- but I would never tell *you* that you were wrong to make your decision, and I expect the same courtesy in return. Which is sadly lacking in many posts on CWDF...

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

40 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

It's not just the battery boxes that are the problem, above 60V you can't use any of the kind of build techniques that are allowed below this -- for example exposed busbars, exposed connections. And it's not good enough to just use things like push-on insulation caps, the rules say that any safety covers must only be removable with tools or a key. And any access to circuits or components inside equipment carrying these voltages has to be proof against things being poked in through ventilation grills, for example a probe (e.g. knitting needle) or a chain -- the principle is that a small child should not be able to come along and get electrocuted, including pulling off insulation caps.

 

Any equipment that is supplied or installed is supposed to follow these rules, either by design/manufacture or installation, and the responsibility for this falls on whoever makes or installs the kit -- for example an inverter has to be certified as safe either by inspection or self-certified by the manufacturer -- who has to have people trained and qualified to do this and who signs it off. This is precisely what happens with all mains equipment, and also any HV DC equipment (>60V) like in EVs or your boat -- the manufacturers have to certify that it's safe, and anyone working on it (e.g. mechanics) has to be trained and certified to do it safely. There is an audit trail which at the end means *somebody* is responsible for the safety of the equipment, including things like self-locking cabinet access doors which can't be accidentally left unlocked -- the regulations are a minefield of little details... 😞

 

For anything you install yourself for your own use the rules don't really apply, in the same way as you can juggle with chainsaws if you want to -- if you drop one and it amputates your leg (like the Circus Archaos guy) or it kills you, that's Darwin in action. Go ahead and install your own DIY 72V propulsion system, nobody's going to stop you or check whether it meets all the rules, BSS examiners just look at it and say "yeah, that looks fine -- tick", their job is to flag stuff that is definitely unsafe or breaks the BSS rules not to check every tiny electrical installation regulation clause is met.

 

But just be warned (though it's *extremely* unlikely to happen...) that if somebody then visits your boat and their child toddles along to your lecky cupboard and opens it, and can poke live circuits inside (after pulling off a nice pretty red insulating cap) and gets electrocuted (or even dies), it's *your* personal problem if they sue you for a million quid, and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Maybe you haven't thought about this or don't realise, maybe you have and have concluded "it'll never happen, stop fearmongering", or maybe you just enjoy juggling with chainsaws, that's your business, just like base jumping or skydiving or free climbing.

 

However going out on the internet and telling other people "yeah it's dead easy and cheap to install your own boat drive system and 72V is cheaper and better than 48V" is not ethical, because for sure they won't be aware of these issues even if you are. Are you -- is this all news to you, or are you going to label it as "scaremongering", or are you really aware of the regulations and happy to take the risk? Or don't you care, life is too short to worry about a small risk of somebody dying, it'll never happen?

 

And please don't come back with the usual "I've got a boat and you haven't, I know more than you" personal attacks (but I bet you do...) -- because it's been obvious in many previous conversations that in many cases you *don't* know what you're talking about and make claims which turn out to be false or misleading, regardless of boat-owning or boat-fitting status... 😉

Its just as well then that I have interconnects with manufacturers covers, no bussbars and no uncovered  connectors. The battery boxes are sealed and fingers cant poke in, the 72 volt stuff is turned off when the  ignition switch is turned off and I have a manual disconnect before that, seems like I have covered the rules anyway. The government regulations according to the Towpath talk article still says that 72 volts is classed as safe though. Written by people who install and sell electric conversion kits

[PD1964]

27 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I agree, and your comments are appreciated because this is just a difference in opinion, it's your preference which is different to mine -- as I keep banging on and on about.

 

Do you really think I didn't consider all the issues you mention, like a newbie who's never been on a narrowboat? I might not live on one but I have spent maybe six months in total travelling -- meaning actually cruising, not sitting moored -- round pretty much the entire canal system on boats of almost all conceivable layouts (including ones like the one I'm going for), and am well aware of how to handle boats and what works and what doesn't -- I suspect I've tried out a lot more different things in that time than many liveaboards. But I'm always willing to learn and take advice from people who genuinely *do* know better, as has become obvious talking to Ricky and Tim during the boat design process... 🙂

 

A well deck and front doors do have advantages as you mentioned, but also have disadvantages -- reduced interior space, and less than ideal with a long boat in a short leaky lock, which for certain is one of *my* concerns even if it's not yours. Same kind of comments apply about type of stern, type of propulsion, type of toilet, heating, mains setup, bow thrusters, side doors -- there's no one solution which is "the best one" for everybody, they all have pros and cons, and different people will think different solutions are the best *for them* -- which doesn't mean the same applies to everyone else.

 

I decided on my bow solution, you decided on yours, horses for courses, and such choices can be debated until the cows come home -- but I would never tell *you* that you were wrong to make your decision, and I expect the same courtesy in return. Which is sadly lacking in many posts on CWDF...

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ricky has had no experience on the canal, he has never been in a lock from what I know, never mind seen or done the very leaking Tinsley flight, his experience of boating is going down a mile of canal turning around and mooring up at the yard again. His field of expertise is the propulsion and tech side.

[IanD]

45 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Its just as well then that I have interconnects with manufacturers covers, no bussbars and no uncovered  connectors. The battery boxes are sealed and fingers cant poke in, the 72 volt stuff is turned off when the  ignition switch is turned off and I have a manual disconnect before that, seems like I have covered the rules anyway. The government regulations according to the Towpath talk article still says that 72 volts is classed as safe though. Written by people who install and sell electric conversion kits

 

We'll have to agree to differ on that then, because other authoritative sources say that a 72V nominal system definitely does *not* fall into the "extra low voltage" category, because the maximum voltage when charging is well over 80V. I've also talked to some of the people who sell and install electric conversion kits and components, and there are those I certainly wouldn't class as "experts" given the level of knowledge they display -- or not... 😞

 

44 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ricky has had no experience on the canal, he has never been in a lock from what I know, never mind seen or done the very leaking Tinsley flight, his experience of boating is going down a mile of canal turning around and mooring up at the yard again. His field of expertise is the propulsion and tech side.

 

And you again misread or misunderstood what I said. I was referring to his (and Tim's) practical knowledge about what does and doesn't work when it comes to building and fitting out a boat, where I think you'd agree they both have quite a lot of experience. Nothing to do with how to work a boat in a lock, I've got plenty of experience of that (maybe about 2000 locks over the years) including super-leaky ones, thank you very much... 😉

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[PD1964]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

We'll have to agree to differ on that then, because other authoritative sources say that a 72V nominal system definitely does *not* fall into the "extra low voltage" category, because the maximum voltage when charging is well over 80V. I've talked to some of the people who sell and install electric conversion kits and components, and there are those I certainly wouldn't class as "experts" given the level of knowledge they display -- or not... 😞

 

 

And you again deliberately misread what I said. I was referring to his (and Tim's) practical knowledge about what does and doesn't work when it comes to building and fitting out a boat, where I think you'd agree they both have quite a lot of experience. Nothing to do with how to work a boat in a lock, I've got plenty of experience of that (maybe about 2000 locks over the years?) including super-leaky ones, thank you very much... 😉

 All I know for certain is that you went to the best builder, I know you will have a good handling strong boat(even without your rudder)  an excellent motor and set up and an interior fit that you would have to go a long way to better. Good luck with everything and please remember it’s only a forum and banter, nothing personal, all the best👍 

Edited July 29, 2022 by PD1964

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

 All I know for certain is you went to the best builder, I know you will have a good handling boat(even without your rudder)  an excellent motor and set up and an interior fit that you would have to go a long way to better. Good luck with everything and please remember it’s only a forum and banter, nothing personal, all the best👍 

 

Thanks, glad to see not everyone thinks I'm wrong about almost *everything* -- it's nice to see a positive comment sometimes... 🙂

 

(wow, just checked -- a thread about HVO and the last 8 pages of posts have almost all been about electric/hybrid boats, sometimes acrimonious. That's some thread drift...)

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

We'll have to agree to differ on that then, because other authoritative sources say that a 72V nominal system definitely does *not* fall into the "extra low voltage" category, because the maximum voltage when charging is well over 80V. I've also talked to some of the people who sell and install electric conversion kits and components, and there are those I certainly wouldn't class as "experts" given the level of knowledge they display -- or not... 😞

 

 

And you again misread or misunderstood what I said. I was referring to his (and Tim's) practical knowledge about what does and doesn't work when it comes to building and fitting out a boat, where I think you'd agree they both have quite a lot of experience. Nothing to do with how to work a boat in a lock, I've got plenty of experience of that (maybe about 2000 locks over the years) including super-leaky ones, thank you very much... 😉

I have said safe low voltage system, the government has said that 120 volt DC no ripple is safe that's the legislation. And that is what the makers of the equipment are fitting and supplying to. Just to be sure I went to a local panel builders and showed him 

Your post  he quickly showed me the legislation that confirms the 120 volts dc rules.

[IanD]

45 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have said safe low voltage system, the government has said that 120 volt DC no ripple is safe that's the legislation. And that is what the makers of the equipment are fitting and supplying to. Just to be sure I went to a local panel builders and showed him 

Your post  he quickly showed me the legislation that confirms the 120 volts dc rules.

 

There does seem to be some confusion here, depending on which standards apply (EU, IEC, ELV directive...) -- some say 120V DC, some say 75V DC, and it's perfectly possible that things have changed since Brexit -- or indeed, before it.

 

It definitely *was* the case that 48V systems were classed as ELV and 72V ones weren't -- at least, in some places -- because the car manufacturers (and articles about mild hybrids) said this was why 48V was chosen, and this was also one reason Victron said that they didn't do HV DC inverters -- again, this may be because to ship worldwide they have to meet the lowest of the standards, and this is 75V DC.

 

If the current (and future) standard in the UK is indeed 120V DC then you're in the clear, and I was wrong... 🙂

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

26 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

There does seem to be some confusion here, depending on which standards apply (EU, IEC, ELV directive...) -- some say 120V DC, some say 75V DC, and it's perfectly possible that things have changed since Brexit -- or indeed, before it.

 

It definitely *was* the case that 48V systems were classed as ELV and 72V ones weren't -- at least, in some places -- because the car manufacturers (and articles about mild hybrids) said this was why 48V was chosen, and this was also one reason Victron said that they didn't do HV DC inverters -- again, this may be because to ship worldwide they have to meet the lowest of the standards, and this is 75V DC.

 

If the current (and future) standard in the UK is indeed 120V DC then you're in the clear, and I was wrong... 🙂

Have a Google at the 2022 regulations which were formulated a few years ago 

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Have a Google at the 2022 regulations which were formulated a few years ago 

I did, but couldn't find anything definitive which clearly said what the rules are in the UK today, especially for marine applications. As I said, if 120V is the rule, you're in the clear -- I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong if new facts come to light 🙂

 

Now, about your claim that Lynch motors are as efficient and much cheaper than PMAC ones... 😉

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

I did, but couldn't find anything definitive which clearly said what the rules are in the UK today, especially for marine applications. As I said, if 120V is the rule, you're in the clear -- I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong if new facts come to light 🙂

 

Now, about your claim that Lynch motors are as efficient and much cheaper than PMAC ones... 😉

Not The lynch company but Cedrics own motors that they make under the Agni brand. When Cedric and Trevor split company the development stopped for the Lynch company at that point Cedric hooked up with Arvind and developed the Agni brand. They then joined Saietta to build motors which did very well in the racing world but Cedric didn't like the company. So he and Arvind were paid off and they reformed Agni again. The Agni motors are very good and the 155R is well suited for boats and racing cars, motorcycles etc. If remember it has a high constant kw figure at a fairly low RPM. The problem is just because it says lynch it doesn't mean its Cedrics Briggs and Stratton also have rights to the motor as well................😩

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, PD1964 said:

 Maybe it’s time for a build blog for @IanD as his build ideas and opinions has taken a few threads off track,  

That was suggested some time back

3 hours ago, IanD said:

 

There does seem to be some confusion here, depending on which standards apply (EU, IEC, ELV directive...) -- some say 120V DC, some say 75V DC, and it's perfectly possible that things have changed since Brexit -- or indeed, before it.

 

It definitely *was* the case that 48V systems were classed as ELV and 72V ones weren't -- at least, in some places -- because the car manufacturers (and articles about mild hybrids) said this was why 48V was chosen, and this was also one reason Victron said that they didn't do HV DC inverters -- again, this may be because to ship worldwide they have to meet the lowest of the standards, and this is 75V DC.

 

If the current (and future) standard in the UK is indeed 120V DC then you're in the clear, and I was wrong... 🙂

In the past, I am getting old now and the memory is fading, I have worked on many ships that used 110 volts DC, of course its more than that on charge.

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Not The lynch company but Cedrics own motors that they make under the Agni brand. When Cedric and Trevor split company the development stopped for the Lynch company at that point Cedric hooked up with Arvind and developed the Agni brand. They then joined Saietta to build motors which did very well in the racing world but Cedric didn't like the company. So he and Arvind were paid off and they reformed Agni again. The Agni motors are very good and the 155R is well suited for boats and racing cars, motorcycles etc. If remember it has a high constant kw figure at a fairly low RPM. The problem is just because it says lynch it doesn't mean its Cedrics Briggs and Stratton also have rights to the motor as well................😩

I know all that. But like I said, where are the efficiency curves (and prices) to back up what you said?

 

(for whichever variety of "Lynch" motor you're using -- I used the duck principle...)

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

I know all that. But like I said, where are the efficiency curves (and prices) to back up what you said?

 

(for whichever variety of "Lynch" motor you're using -- I used the duck principle...)

This is the best I can find you Ian

[IanD]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

This is the best I can find you Ian

So 83% at full power compared to 93% for PMAC -- which is exactly what I said, 2.5x higher motor loss and heating... 😉

 

Those costs and rated powers hide a lot -- if you take the Agni motor as an example, having a voltage range of 12-108V *and* a "rated power" of 33kW makes no sense whatsoever.

 

For comparable boat drive systems as supplied in the UK-- which I provided actual costs for -- the "Lynch" motors/controllers are one of the more expensive, and probably the least efficient. This is a direct result of them sticking with "old-school" technology (commutator DC motors with field coils) when the rest of the world has moved on to more efficient solutions (PMAC motors with 3-phase controllers), like all EVs use for the same reasons.

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

So 83% at full power compared to 93% for PMAC -- which is exactly what I said, 2.5x higher motor loss and heating... 😉

 

Those costs and rated powers hide a lot -- if you take the Agni motor as an example, having a voltage range of 12-108V *and* a "rated power" of 33kW makes no sense whatsoever.

 

For comparable boat drive systems as supplied in the UK-- which I provided actual costs for -- the "Lynch" motors/controllers are one of the more expensive, and probably the least efficient. This is a direct result of them sticking with "old-school" technology (commutator DC motors with field coils) when the rest of the world has moved on to more efficient solutions (PMAC motors with 3-phase controllers), like all EVs use for the same reasons.

But at normal cruising speeds which we do 98% of the time, for well under 3k you get an electric drive system, that's had race track proven reliability. Then at normal cruising speeds it's very nearly as efficient as your 30k system!!!

Ok batteries are extra but it's not huge money is it? The 30kw is running at the high voltage 10 kws gives you 10kw.

Ian for a lot of London boaters it would do them nicely for their 2 week shuffle 🤣.

I have a 155R on order from Cedric as I want the lower rpm and extra power it will provide, James rates it highly on the tidal Thames 

Edited July 29, 2022 by peterboat

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, peterboat said:

But at normal cruising speeds which we do 98% of the time, for well under 3k you get an electric drive system, that's had race track proven reliability. Then at normal cruising speeds it's very nearly as efficient as your 30k system!!!

Ok batteries are extra but it's not huge money is it? The 30kw is running at the high voltage 10 kws gives you 10kw.

Ian for a lot of London boaters it would do them nicely for their 2 week shuffle 🤣.

I have a 155R on order from Cedric as I want the lower rpm and extra power it will provide, James rates it highly on the tidal Thames 

 

As I said and you've just agreed with, when cruising at 3kW it doesn't matter what drive system you've got, they all consume very little power and have high efficiency (e.g. 93%) so they run cool (220W dissipation).

 

"Race track proven reliability" is a red herring, all these systems have been shown to be very reliable. The cost numbers I gave for actual boat drive systems showed that Lynch was not cheap; if you dispute this, please provide actual costs for a similar drive system so they can be compared.

 

The problem for electric/hybrid boats for many people -- as correctly identified by the doubters -- is what happens when you want to go upstream on a river against the current for a couple of hours or more at full power -- can the drive system cope with this?

 

In this case what matters is how it behaves under these stressful conditions; with 83% efficiency (3kW dissipation at 15kW output) I'm not at all convinced that the (air-cooled) Lynch motors are up to this, and you have provided no proof that they are.

 

With 93% efficiency (1.1kW dissipation at 15kW output) the PMAC motors are definitely up to this, as shown not only by the (liquid-cooled) motor ratings but the fact that Finesse have actually tested them under these conditions.

 

How London boaters rate the Lynch motors on their 2 week shuffle or you or your mate James rates them when pootling on the tidal Thames says absolutely *nothing* about how they would cope under this stress.

 

You also seem to be unable to add up numbers; my "drive system" doesn't cost anything near 30k, in fact the real costs that I provided from quotes (not your handwaving "mine is cheaper than yours" claim) suggest that the PMAC motor/controller costs less than a dual-motor Lynch Swordfish which has comparable output.

 

How much things like the batteries/generator cost is another red herring; in either case you can use cheap secondhand kit (you) or expensive new kit (me), but this is nothing to do with the motor.

 

You're flogging a dead horse here; the old-school Lynch DC motor/controller is an inferior solution to a modern PMAC motor/controller from all points of view -- noise, efficiency, sustained power, cooling, maintenance, protection. And it's not even any cheaper going by the actual costs for a comparable power drive system... 😉

Edited July 29, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

As I said and you've just agreed with, when cruising at 3kW it doesn't matter what drive system you've got, they all consume very little power and have high efficiency (e.g. 93%) so they run cool (220W dissipation).

 

"Race track proven reliability" is a red herring, all these systems have been shown to be very reliable. The cost numbers I gave for actual boat drive systems showed that Lynch was not cheap; if you dispute this, please provide actual costs for a similar drive system so they can be compared.

 

The problem for electric/hybrid boats for many people -- as correctly identified by the doubters -- is what happens when you want to go upstream on a river against the current for a couple of hours or more at full power -- can the drive system cope with this?

 

In this case what matters is how it behaves under these stressful conditions; with 83% efficiency (3kW dissipation at 15kW output) I'm not at all convinced that the (air-cooled) Lynch motors are up to this, and you have provided no proof that they are.

 

With 93% efficiency (1.1kW dissipation at 15kW output) the PMAC motors are definitely up to this, as shown not only by the (liquid-cooled) motor ratings but the fact that Finesse have actually tested them under these conditions.

 

How London boaters rate the Lynch motors on their 2 week shuffle or you or your mate James rates them when pootling on the tidal Thames says absolutely *nothing* about how they would cope under this stress.

 

You also seem to be unable to add up numbers; my "drive system" doesn't cost anything near 30k, in fact the real costs that I provided from quotes (not your handwaving "mine is cheaper than yours" claim) suggest that the PMAC motor/controller costs less than a dual-motor Lynch Swordfish which has comparable output.

 

How much things like the batteries/generator cost is another red herring; in either case you can use cheap secondhand kit (you) or expensive new kit (me), but this is nothing to do with the motor.

 

You're flogging a dead horse here; the old-school Lynch DC motor/controller is an inferior solution to a modern PMAC motor/controller from all points of view -- noise, efficiency, sustained power, cooling, maintenance, protection. And it's not even any cheaper going by the actual costs for a comparable power drive system... 😉

Seems to do quite well looking at these screen shots