Gas Changeover Valve (Auto)

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Bearing in mind your location I imagine it might apply to sailing yachts.

 

No it doesn't. Neither sailing boats or motor cruisers - he is talking out of his arris.

There is no requirement to have bilge monitors or electric shut off valves in a gas locker.

 

That is why I asked him if it was a legal requirement as there is absolutely nothing of the sort mentioned in ISO 10239 "Small craft — Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) system"

Which is the gas installation specification used in the RCD

 

 

[TNLI]

28 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Most of that is not applicable to canal boats (aka wrong and misleading information). Bearing in mind your location I imagine it might apply to sailing yachts.

There are canal boats that set a very high standard in gas or petrol safety terms, although my boat will be subject to a much more detailed commercial insurance survey that is a bit more complicated for a lifeboat, due to the need to show how the ballast figures and resulting loaded and flooded vanishing points, (Roll over angle of no return), were calculated, and that does require a tilt test, which is the same as that done for a new offshore yacht, or even some self righting fishing boats. The flood and pump tests are done in the travel lift slipway, or within reach of the crane arm. Each watertight bulkhead area is flooded in turn to check for the resulting freeboard and tilt angles. Finally all of them are flooded except the engine bay and adjacent sealed tool locker that is bolted to the engine frame which extends further than in a normal boat. There are 2 fuel tank lockers in addition to 3 main watertight bulkhead sections, and when the area above each side locker, (Just above a fuel tank), is full of old commercial lifejackets or other approved strapped down flotation, like bags of non flammable pasta for example, I hope Elsie May will not suddenly need the lift straps to save the day!

 

  One complication of my design is that it needs 7 bilge pumps, as follows:

Stuffing box drip tray: one Rule 500, (No room for anything bigger under the tray).

Main engine bay: Two 1200 gph auto units

Aft cabin and connected central coffin berth area: Two 1200's

Forward cabin area: Two more 1200's

The bow collision and anchor chain area drains to the forward cabin bilge through a small valve that can be closed in an emergency.

 

Canal boats do sink and suffer gas related fires or explosions just like caravans parked near a cliff in a storm.

[Naughty Cal]

Which has what to do with automatic changeover valves?

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, TNLI said:

due to the need to show how the ballast figures and resulting loaded and flooded vanishing points, (Roll over angle of no return), were calculated, and that does require a tilt test, which is the same as that done for a new offshore yacht,

 

I presume that you are aware that that information is required for EVERY recreational craft manufactured since 1998 - it even includes canal steel narrowboats.

 

Maybe you knowledge would be better appreciated on a commercial lifeboat forum, much of it has no relevance to users on this forum.

[TNLI]

15 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have not come across that before - Is that a legal requirement ?

Not the steel part, and I'm talking about commercial insurance defintions of gross negligence as regards storage of onboard explosive or flammable gases and fluids. The catches on a gas locker lid need to be real good, so it's stronger than the outer hull sectiion. There have been several nasty accidents where a smoker sat on top of the gas locker and dropped their fag eng down near the edge of the locker lid, or door hatch. One person was blown clean off the boat by the lid catches failing, the other incident resulted in serious petrol burns.  That accident should only have resulted in a bang from the locker and a missing outer hull section.

[Tony Brooks]

7 hours ago, TNLI said:

Not the steel part, and I'm talking about commercial insurance defintions of gross negligence as regards storage of onboard explosive or flammable gases and fluids. The catches on a gas locker lid need to be real good, so it's stronger than the outer hull sectiion. There have been several nasty accidents where a smoker sat on top of the gas locker and dropped their fag eng down near the edge of the locker lid, or door hatch. One person was blown clean off the boat by the lid catches failing, the other incident resulted in serious petrol burns.  That accident should only have resulted in a bang from the locker and a missing outer hull section.

 

Have you actually read and understood the Boat Safety Scheme and the ISOs referred to in the recreational Craft regulations (was RCD)? I doubt the BSS will apply to your boat, but as Alan says if it's post 1998 the RCR will.

 

The mandatory size and placement of the low level overboard vent for the gas tank would  render such an accident unlikely.

 

Your boat would fail the BSS on grounds of insufficiently supported wiring, judging by the image.

 

You may get more help and appreciation from the YBW forum that has many more sea boaters than this one. Such sea boating members we do have either also have inland boats or have left inland waters for a variety of reasons.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Tony Brooks

[TNLI]

50 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Have you actually read and understood the Boat Safety Scheme and the ISOs referred to in the recreational Craft regulations (was RCD)? I doubt the BSS will apply to your boat, but as Alan says if it's post 1998 the RCR will.

 

The mandatory size and placement of the low level overboard vent for the gas tank would  render such an accident unlikely.

 

Your boat would fail the BSS on grounds of insufficiently supported wiring, judging by the image.

 

You may get more help and appreciation from the YBW forum that has many more sea boaters than this one. Such sea boating members we do have either also have inland boats or have left inland waters for a variety of reasons.

No, but I do have a friend in the RNLI, (Their main HQ is in Poole), who builds boats for the RNLI production facility in Poole, (great place if you go for a tour). who sure knows all the regs both normal, Solas and ABS. 

 

I've been very close to a gas explosion in Puerto Mogan that started a fire in the bilges of a small German yacht nearly opposite to my Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. That German boat was built to a very high standard, BUT some chap in the factory did not smoke check or fully inspect the drain from the gas locker to overboard vent correctly. Although the drain worked in terms of water in the locker, it sure did not work with gas, as I inspected the system after a few of us from nearby boats had put a small fire out in the trashed bilge and lower cabin floor board area, (Good thing I had a crow bar to open the main hatch. The drain hose had a U shaped curve that was defintely holding a small amount of water, so it did not work in terms of stopping a smallish gas leak from the regulator hose. The lid seal was less than pefect and the heavier than air propane had then overflowed into the cockpit and then down into the lowr cabin through an open quarter berth port. The owner had been away for several weeks, but returned to arrange what was almost 10 grands worth of carpentry and fiberglass repairs. The explosion was under the cabin sole, but no idea what the ignition source was, BUT I did write the report for the port captain saying no auto shut off system was fitted, just a remote valve. The gas alarm was sounding BUT could not be heard by a passing security guard. 

  I really don't like propane or petrol anything, and I'm now a safetyaholic in terms of gas, petrol, non toroidal liferaft use and small rubber ducks with unreliable outboards and missing oars, lights, flares, hand held radio and anchors. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, TNLI said:

No, but I do have a friend in the RNLI, (Their main HQ is in Poole), who builds boats for the RNLI production facility in Poole, (great place if you go for a tour). who sure knows all the regs both normal, Solas and ABS. 

 

I've been very close to a gas explosion in Puerto Mogan that started a fire in the bilges of a small German yacht nearly opposite to my Pacific Seacraft Dana 24. That German boat was built to a very high standard, BUT some chap in the factory did not smoke check or fully inspect the drain from the gas locker to overboard vent correctly. Although the drain worked in terms of water in the locker, it sure did not work with gas, as I inspected the system after a few of us from nearby boats had put a small fire out in the trashed bilge and lower cabin floor board area, (Good thing I had a crow bar to open the main hatch. The drain hose had a U shaped curve that was defintely holding a small amount of water, so it did not work in terms of stopping a smallish gas leak from the regulator hose. The lid seal was less than pefect and the heavier than air propane had then overflowed into the cockpit and then down into the lowr cabin through an open quarter berth port. The owner had been away for several weeks, but returned to arrange what was almost 10 grands worth of carpentry and fiberglass repairs. The explosion was under the cabin sole, but no idea what the ignition source was, BUT I did write the report for the port captain saying no auto shut off system was fitted, just a remote valve. The gas alarm was sounding BUT could not be heard by a passing security guard. 

  I really don't like propane or petrol anything, and I'm now a safetyaholic in terms of gas, petrol, non toroidal liferaft use and small rubber ducks with unreliable outboards and missing oars, lights, flares, hand held radio and anchors. 

 

That gas locker drain would fail the BSS check that has to be carried out on a four yearly basis. Although I don't know for sure it is all but certain it's contrary to the RCD/RCR so if that boat was post 1998 either the builder or whoever re-fitted the drain had committed an offence, possibly a criminal one.

 

I believe that since the recent revision of the RCD/RCR all work for the life of the boat has to comply and certainly an engine change requires one that is compliant and may require a post construction certificate of compliance. To be safe, you need to ensure any new engine meets the RCD/RCR emissions standards that include exhaust and noise limits.

 

Remembering that this is a canal forum (clue in its name) the danger from the gas installations is exceptionally low since the BSS was introduced. I think it would be true to say there is a greater likelihood of a fire resulting from using a sold fuel stove. In any case, the gas tank drain is more often than not just a hole in the hull, not something easy to block and very easy to check. In any case, unlike at sea on the canals and some rivers you can simply jump overboard and walk out of the water.

[LEO]

On 10/07/2021 at 22:44, Arthur Marshall said:

According to the BSC bloke, the internals of the valve clog up with the stuff added to the gas to make it smell, and gradually the pressure reduces. Mine has apparently dropped by about a third, which probably explains why the gas fridge isnt cooling as well as it did.

He reckoned they'd need replacing every five or six years.

Interesting, I fitted one, it failed within a few years.Check the instructions, the manufacturers indicate they have a very short service life. A post on here produced answers confirming similar similar experiences. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

To be safe, you need to ensure any new engine meets the RCD/RCR emissions standards that include exhaust and noise limits.

 

He keeps banging on about his boat being 'commercial' and, if so the RCD / RCR would not apply.

If, indeed, his boat is commercial then it will have to be built and maintained to MCA Commercial regulations.

 

Edit to add extract from the RCD :

 

There are a few exemptions from the RCD such as boats built solely for racing, gondolas and commercial vessels (not recreational vessels used for charter, but vessels such as fishing boats and workboats).

Edited July 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

He keeps banging on about his boat being 'commercial' and, if so the RCD / RCR would not apply.

If, indeed, his boat is commercial then it will have to be built and maintained to MCA Commercial regulations.

 

Edit to add extract from the RCD :

 

There are a few exemptions from the RCD such as boats built solely for racing, gondolas and commercial vessels (not recreational vessels used for charter, but vessels such as fishing boats and workboats).

 

But surely they will be based on the same ISOs and probably enhanced by the MCA. Not that I know such about MCA regs, but some of his ideas seem very over the top, like the eight bilge pumps. I can't see the MCA being happy with the visible wiring.

 

I get the distinct feeling he is going to be throwing loads of money at a project that may well not need it.

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

But surely they will be based on the same ISOs and probably enhanced by the MCA.

 

Indeed, the two regs oft cited for the RCD (ISO 10133 & ISO 13297) are included in the MCA electrical requirements but there are others for different applications and environments:

 

Small Vessels in Commercial Use for Sport or Pleasure, Workboats and Pilot Boats – Alternative Construction Standards

 

Section 8 lists the electrical specification requirements :

 

 

 

 

From previous comments made he would appear to be fitting out to MCA regs, as, for example, he would appear to be looking to comply with this section of The Institution of Electrical Engineers Regulations for the Electrical and Electronic Equipment of Ships with Recommended Practice for their Implementation, 6th Edition 1990 and subsequent supplements.

 

 

12.2 Main source of electrical power 12.2.1 A main source of electrical power of sufficient capacity to supply all those services mentioned in 12.1.1 shall be provided. The main source of electrical power shall consist of at least two generating sets.

 

12.2.1 requires at least two main generating sets which together can supply the power for maintaining all normal operational and habitable conditions, that is to say the full design load including non-essential consumers. These generators should be available for duty at all times when the craft is at sea, or is about to put to sea or is under way. Where these services are intended to be supplied by a single generator in operation, the main generators should be arranged so that another selected machine is automatically started and connected to the main switchboard if the generator in operation is overloaded or fails. Generators, motors and transforming equipment, intended for services in connection with propulsion and safety of the ship, are to be inspected during construction and the works and shipboard tests are to be witnessed. Machines and transforming equipment of less than 100kW may be accepted, without survey at the Manufacturing Works, if satisfactory maker's test certificates are supplied certifying the results of tests to determine the operating characteristics, temperature rise, insulation resistance and dielectric strength. Craft of not more than 21.34m length that operate predominantly on a 24v dc supply may not be required to have two generator sets. In these craft, at least two alternators driven by different prime movers should be provided. The battery power and arrangement should be sufficient to meet the normal and emergency electrical load requirements of this Chapter.

 

 

I thnk I'll just quietly withdraw now.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony Brooks]

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think I'll just quietly withdraw now.

 

I agree, unless he starts to tell our less knowledgable users more questionable opinion/information as fact.

[TNLI]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That gas locker drain would fail the BSS check that has to be carried out on a four yearly basis. Although I don't know for sure it is all but certain it's contrary to the RCD/RCR so if that boat was post 1998 either the builder or whoever re-fitted the drain had committed an offence, possibly a criminal one.

 

I believe that since the recent revision of the RCD/RCR all work for the life of the boat has to comply and certainly an engine change requires one that is compliant and may require a post construction certificate of compliance. To be safe, you need to ensure any new engine meets the RCD/RCR emissions standards that include exhaust and noise limits.

 

Remembering that this is a canal forum (clue in its name) the danger from the gas installations is exceptionally low since the BSS was introduced. I think it would be true to say there is a greater likelihood of a fire resulting from using a sold fuel stove. In any case, the gas tank drain is more often than not just a hole in the hull, not something easy to block and very easy to check. In any case, unlike at sea on the canals and some rivers you can simply jump overboard and walk out of the water.

One incident was a home build from a professional steel hull that was obvious if you checked the hose angle to be no good. The other plastic boat, (I think it was a Jeneaux or similar), a small motor boat, had passed 2 surverys from new, BUT when I talked to the Spanish inspector after it went bang, I did point out I had found debris in the form of leaf fragments and ciigy butts, (The gas locker was empty during the last epoxy and delatination job for about 3 months), but the owners friend was still living on board and smoking wacky backy a bit too often. Not sure she knew what a gas locker is. Only a smoke test showed the drain was not working too well, (Not fully blocked), although the lid seal was defintely kaput. The lid seal did get replaced, but the owner did his own safety inspections! Although very few inspectors would have found the drain fault. That's why I don't do gas anymore. Alcohol, Paraffin or all electric.

[jonathanA]

I think I've slipped into a parallel universe...

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

I don't think he realises that UK canals are muddy ditches about 3 feet deep, not really any comparison with US Intercoastal (3000 miles ) canal, the Panama or Suez.

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

I think I've slipped into a parallel universe...

 

 

Its OK, you are not alone....................................................................................................🤓

[Wanderer Vagabond]

On 10/07/2021 at 22:44, Arthur Marshall said:

According to the BSC bloke, the internals of the valve clog up with the stuff added to the gas to make it smell, and gradually the pressure reduces. Mine has apparently dropped by about a third, which probably explains why the gas fridge isnt cooling as well as it did.

He reckoned they'd need replacing every five or six years.

Interestingly I got the same advice from my recent BSS inspection, to change the regulators every 5 years. The examiner explained that if they fail you get a really good flame on your cooker a whole lot bigger that the one you are used to😨.

 

I also took a look at the Midland Chandler site and noted that on the regulators there is the warning,"....PLEASE NOTE: Gas appliances should only be installed by a Gas Safe registered installer and in accordance with the manufacturers' instructions...." so I think I'm now looking for someone with the qualifications to replace mine.

[jonathanA]

Well start by avoiding anyone who is gas safe registered unless they are known to you or recommended by someone you trust ....

 

And In any case midland swindlers are not entirely correct you only need gas safe if you are liveaboard. 

Frankly if you are Competent with a spanner and can test for leaks then just do it...

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Well start by avoiding anyone who is gas safe registered unless they are known to you or recommended by someone you trust ....

 

And In any case midland swindlers are not entirely correct you only need gas safe if you are liveaboard. 

Frankly if you are Competent with a spanner and can test for leaks then just do it...

We’ll actually you don’t need to be a gas safe registered bod even if you are liveaboard. The GSIUR only says you need to be competent. You only need to be gas safe registered if you are working on someone else’s boat, ie doing it professionally. But as part of trade protectionism, the myth that you can’t work on your own gas system unless GS registered even if you are competent, is widely promulgated.

[Arthur Marshall]

I wouldn't install a cooker, because I'd want it tested. But the regulator isn't an appliance as such,  you're not connecting anything except the bottles, which you do anyway. All you're doing is screwing it to something and I don't think you need to be gas safe for that.

[jonathanA]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

We’ll actually you don’t need to be a gas safe registered bod even if you are liveaboard. The GSIUR only says you need to be competent. You only need to be gas safe registered if you are working on someone else’s boat, ie doing it professionally. But as part of trade protectionism, the myth that you can’t work on your own gas system unless GS registered even if you are competent, is widely promulgated.

Thanks Nick 

 

I wasnt 100% sure about the gsiur liveaboard bit so erred on the side of caution. 

 

Yes the myth about you can't do your own gas work, electrics etc is promoted by those who would dearly (quite literally) love that to be the case.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, jonathanA said:

Thanks Nick 

 

I wasnt 100% sure about the gsiur liveaboard bit so erred on the side of caution. 

 

Yes the myth about you can't do your own gas work, electrics etc is promoted by those who would dearly (quite literally) love that to be the case.

Tonight I was talking to a friend whose son has just had an enormous garage /man cave built professionally. As part of the deal with his missus the washing machine and tumble drier were also to be relocated to this new building. But when washing machine and tumble drier were both on, the breaker tripped. It transpired that the entire garage supply was connected to one 16A breaker in the house AND all the sockets including double sockets in the garage were wired in spur pattern with 1.5mm twin and earth. The electrician employed was a “professional” with all the right bits of paper.

[GUMPY]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Tonight I was talking to a friend whose son has just had an enormous garage /man cave built professionally. As part of the deal with his missus the washing machine and tumble drier were also to be relocated to this new building. But when washing machine and tumble drier were both on, the breaker tripped. It transpired that the entire garage supply was connected to one 16A breaker in the house AND all the sockets including double sockets in the garage were wired in spur pattern with 1.5mm twin and earth. The electrician employed was a “professional” with all the right bits of paper.

Under BS7671 there is nothing wrong with wiring it that way it doesn't have to be s ring main. However the spurs should have been in 2.5 as 1.5 is only rated at 14-20 amps depending on how it's fixed so it's right on the limit with a 16 amp MCB.

A 10anp MCB would have been ok.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Under BS7671 there is nothing wrong with wiring it that way it doesn't have to be s ring main. However the spurs should have been in 2.5 as 1.5 is only rated at 14-20 amps depending on how it's fixed so it's right on the limit with a 16 amp MCB.

A 10anp MCB would have been ok.

Agree about the spur thing, I mentioned it only because wiring the sockets in a ring main configuration with 1.5mm wouldn’t have been so bad. But as we both know, normal practice is to use 2.5mm, which was the main thrust of my point.