phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[IanD]

31 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's almost as if some kind of nationalised infrastructure programme would be helpful.  Not that that's ever gonna happen.

It's not the infrastructure that needs standardising (except for connectors), it's the billing/charging/account side of things. It doesn't matter who owns and operates the hardware so long as they all use the same payment method -- like ATM machines but in reverse.

 

Of course a nationalised system which also didn't rip people off would be even better, a bit like the mains supply system, but that would involve the Government spending money, and they'd much rather hand the problem over to the private sector to build the charging stations and then charge an arm and a leg to use them so they can pay their CEO and shareholders.

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

UK's first all-electric car charging forecourt opens in Essex

Clean energy firm Gridserve has plans for more than 100 such sites over next five years

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essex

And it will undoubtedly use Gridserve's own account/payment system, just like all the others do...

Edited December 8, 2020 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

 

It's not the infrastructure that needs standardising (except for connectors), it's the billing/charging/account side of things. It doesn't matter who owns and operates the hardware so long as they all use the same payment method -- like ATM machines but in reverse.

And it will undoubtedly use Gridserve's own account/payment system, just like all the others do...

Interesting comparison.  I remember when you could only use certain ATMs according to who your account was with.  My choices were Barclays, Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland.  Took many years for them to get their act together and cooperate.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Interesting comparison.  I remember when you could only use certain ATMs according to who your account was with.  My choices were Barclays, Lloyds and Royal Bank of Scotland.  Took many years for them to get their act together and cooperate.

Indeed, and that was annoying. But not half as annoying as driving to a charging station only to find it won't accept your money and you haven't got enough juice left to get to one that will... ?

 

The guy I was being driven by in the US already had accounts/cards/whatever with several different charging networks, but not the one we pulled up at, and all his attempts to create an account on the spot failed so he had to find another one he could pay at, which it turned out wasn't working, so...

Edited December 8, 2020 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

They should have just called themselves Grid.  Gridserve sounds like a crap internet service provider from the 90s. 

[IanD]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

They should have just called themselves Grid.  Gridserve sounds like a crap internet service provider from the 90s. 

Maybe a Grauniad reader could set up a safe female-only charging network and call it Grilserve? ?

[phantom_iv]

45 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It's almost as if some kind of nationalised infrastructure programme would be helpful.  Not that that's ever gonna happen.

Oh god no. When has anything the state does (at least in this country) ever been delivered on time, not cost 10 times more than it should, actually worked reliably without massive headaches and not been embarrassingly laughable compared to what is available overseas?

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

Oh god no. When has anything the state does (at least in this country) ever been delivered on time, not cost 10 times more than it should, actually worked reliably without massive headaches and not been embarrassingly laughable compared to what is available overseas?

Yeah, its terrible here, I reckon every other country in the World will have started their Covid vaccine roll out way before us, not that its an important matter.

[phantom_iv]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Yeah, its terrible here, I reckon every other country in the World will have started their Covid vaccine roll out way before us, not that its an important matter.

 

You make a good point - the MHRA seems to be a rare exception on recent performance. Don't get me wrong, I think in this case the government needs to regulate to ensure a payment method that works for everyone, and to make sure commercial operators aren't ripping off "pay as you go" customers, but not actually manage, install and maintain the infrastructure. That's not something they do well.

 

e.g.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/all-new-rapid-chargepoints-should-offer-card-payment-by-2020

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

I think in this case the government needs to regulate to ensure a payment method that works for everyone, and to make sure commercial operators aren't ripping off "pay as you go" customers,

 

If you are going to restrict the pricing levels then there will be little incentive to invest in the infrastructure.

Laws have already been passed / amended to allow suppliers of electricity for EV use to charge what they will without constraints, the justification being (unlike [say] - a mobile-home), the EV can source electricity from any number of sources and suppliers whilst the mobile home owner has no choice but to use the 'park supply.

 

 

 

Decision on the application of the Maximum Resale Price to the resale of electricity for charging electric vehicles

 

This letter sets out our decision that the Maximum Resale Price (MRP) provisions do not apply to the resale of electricity from charge points for use by electric vehicles (EVs). We expect this clarification to alleviate concerns that the MRP could act as a barrier to the commercial expansion of charge points. It is also consistent with the exclusion of the resale of gas for use in the propulsion of a motor vehicle by the Gas Act 1986. The amendments to the MRP provisions take effect from 11 April 2014.

 

The MRP provisions were designed to protect domestic consumers at risk of overcharging by landlords. Electricity resold from charge points for EVs largely differs from this situation as the final consumer may have a choice as to the location and provider for the charging of their vehicle. This could include charging their vehicle at their home or workplace. EV charge points were not considered when the MRP provisions were amended in January 2002 as technology was not sufficiently developed to make general ownership viable. On 20th December 2012 we published a letter on our proposal to clarify that the MRP should not apply to the resale of electricity for EVs

Edited December 8, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[doratheexplorer]

26 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

Oh god no. When has anything the state does (at least in this country) ever been delivered on time, not cost 10 times more than it should, actually worked reliably without massive headaches and not been embarrassingly laughable compared to what is available overseas?

 

Not well timed that comment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/08/coventry-woman-90-first-patient-to-receive-covid-vaccine-in-nhs-campaign

 

I know the vaccine creation was privately led, but the approval and national roll-out has been led by the public sector.  And a huge well done to all those involved. ?

 

Also look at the value for money provided by the NHS compared to US private health insurance. 

 

Most daily users of the railways favour renationalisation, because they can see what a disaster privatisation has been.

 

Public funding can work, but we like to moan about the times it's gone wrong.

Edited December 8, 2020 by doratheexplorer

[1st ade]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Elon Musk is planning to become emperor of Mars. Jeff Bezos is well on his way to being emperor of Earth.

 

Fixed that for you...

[phantom_iv]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Also look at the value for money provided by the NHS compared to US private health insurance. 

 

Most daily users of the railways favour renationalisation, because they can see what a disaster privatisation has been.

 

Public funding can work, but we like to moan about the times it's gone wrong.

Fair play to the MHRA for quick work on the approvals. But the NHS is a disaster in many ways... as is the US system, true. But elsewhere in Europe (and indeed the world) there are much better health systems than either, not all of which are publicly run, which are also free at the point of use.

 

Must admit I'm not sure what to think about railway nationalisation - BR was a disaster, private operation is also a disaster, although the track and signalling systems are still nationalised. 

[1st ade]

33 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

...and to make sure commercial operators aren't ripping off "pay as you go" customers,...

In the fullness of time, as with fossil fuels, this will become supply and demand. "Want a quick top up within three minutes of the M1 Sir, expect to pay for it"

 

I remember "pay as you go petrol" breaking about £1-30 a litre in the depths of Cornwall about ten years ago. Even with a RHIB with a 100l tank it wasn't worth towing back north of Helston for cheaper fuel; just grin (well, grimace) and bear it.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, 1st ade said:

In the fullness of time, as with fossil fuels, this will become supply and demand. "Want a quick top up within three minutes of the M1 Sir, expect to pay for it"

 

I remember "pay as you go petrol" breaking about £1-30 a litre in the depths of Cornwall about ten years ago. Even with a RHIB with a 100l tank it wasn't worth towing back north of Helston for cheaper fuel; just grin (well, grimace) and bear it.

I once bought a book that listed all the petrol stations with a short distance of motorways to save money on fuel

[Iain_S]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

This was a very ambitious project to take on http://nauticmag.com/2020/12/07/electric-shock-by-jimmy-cornell/?fbclid=IwAR0vz8Jj4q-4dFUwrozv_rpWHoQofCqMrshO6egUcZcF7368XlRqbd4n4Lo 

Waiting for the technology to catch up ; really tough and flexible solar panals, made into sails?

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Waiting for the technology to catch up ; really tough and flexible solar panals, made into sails?

The interesting bit I thought was the difference in performance between test conditions and real life with the prop generators 

[phantom_iv]

 

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

The interesting bit I thought was the difference in performance between test conditions and real life with the prop generators 

 

As an aside it really does my head in when people can't use units for power and energy properly - "The net gain was a disappointing 9.5% of our total battery capacity, equivalent to 5.32 kWh, or 532 Watts per hour." - I mean what does this actually mean?

 

I think he means 532Wh per hour, or 532 Watts, but as written it's nonsensical.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

 

You make a good point - the MHRA seems to be a rare exception on recent performance. Don't get me wrong, I think in this case the government needs to regulate to ensure a payment method that works for everyone, and to make sure commercial operators aren't ripping off "pay as you go" customers, but not actually manage, install and maintain the infrastructure. That's not something they do well.

 

e.g.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/all-new-rapid-chargepoints-should-offer-card-payment-by-2020

The National Grid? The mains gas pipeline network? National water distribution? Road and railway infrastructure?

 

Do you really think that these would be better and cheaper if left in the hands of multiple private companies? Clue : look at how well that works in the USA...

 

When you're talking about a fundamental national infrastructure which all needs to work and be designed and maintained as a whole, a single network of hardware -- which usually means, run by the government -- is usually the best option. This is especially true when it has a big impact on other national infrastructures, like the loading of the National Grid by high-power charging stations, which is very different to petrol stations which can be plonked down anywhere and supplied by road tanker.

 

Leave this to private and competing companies we'll end up with a similar situation to where the railways were before grouping, each company built their own stations and tracks regardless of what the others did leading to needless station/line duplication in lucrative areas (with higher costs as a result, and incentives to stop people using their competitors) and poor service in remote ones -- which is exactly what you don't want for a vehicle charging network needed to keep the country moving, and is where we're going right now.

 

Whether you then allow competition in who you buy the product from over that national network -- like we do now with electricity and gas and trains -- is a separate issue, and this can be something that private companies are good at because (at least in theory) competition pushes them to provide good customer service and support where a national monopoly operator has no such pressure.

 

People do talk about how crap BT and BR used to be because of this, the private companies are undoubtedly keener to get your custom but also keener to squeeze every last penny out of customers because their drive is to make profit not provide a service. Never forget this when a company makes out it's your friend -- it's not, you might be a "valued customer" but the key is in the word "value".

 

Nothing wrong with that, money *does* make the world go round and provide jobs, but sometimes this sits uneasily when what's being provided is a basic service...

Edited December 8, 2020 by IanD

[phantom_iv]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

The National Grid? The mains gas pipeline network? National water distribution? Road and railway infrastructure?

 

National grid is a private company these days ? Last time I checked, there wasn't national water distribution - there were only local private monopoly-holding companies. Road and railway infrastructure takes longer, costs more and is worse maintained in general than many other comparable companies. E.g. go to France. Yes, it is state owned there, but they're better at it it seems. I'm not saying state ownership is necessarily a bad thing in itself, we just seem to do it really badly in this country.

 

As for railway provision in remote areas being worse pre-grouping, there's a lot of places that had a railway connection before nationalisation that don't have one now.

 

Ultimately, the key to successful privatisation is competition. Without competition private companies have no incentive to keep prices low, as their customers have nowhere else to go. The days of duplicated railway lines into major urban areas did at least provide competition for better services and lower prices for customers, compared to these days of insufficient capacity.

 

Regaring EV charging points, yes, I do believe private companies will do a better job than the government of rolling them out. Because eventually if they make them too expensive / too hard to use / too unreliable customers will simply go elsewhere. With a government-run monopoly if you don't like the service / it's too expensive / too unreliable then tough. You'll have to live with it as you have no alternative. And the people running it will still have a job regardless of how incompetently they do it so what's their incentive to make it actually work well? Same as in the NHS there seems to be zero incentive to provide a good standard of care to your patients and actually look after them, because patients have nowhere else to go. Complain and you're told, "it's free, what did you expect?"

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, phantom_iv said:

 

National grid is a private company these days ? Last time I checked, there wasn't national water distribution - there were only local private monopoly-holding companies. Road and railway infrastructure takes longer, costs more and is worse maintained in general than many other comparable companies. E.g. go to France. Yes, it is state owned there, but they're better at it it seems. I'm not saying state ownership is necessarily a bad thing in itself, we just seem to do it really badly in this country.  Because we do far too much of it half-heartedly, and because the public sector is woefully underfunded in order to further a specific political agenda.

 

As for railway provision in remote areas being worse pre-grouping, there's a lot of places that had a railway connection before nationalisation that don't have one now.  Are you seriously saying that small, unprofitable stations would have been more likely to stay open under private ownership?

 

Ultimately, the key to successful privatisation is competition. Without competition private companies have no incentive to keep prices low, as their customers have nowhere else to go. The days of duplicated railway lines into major urban areas did at least provide competition for better services and lower prices for customers, compared to these days of insufficient capacity.

 

Regaring EV charging points, yes, I do believe private companies will do a better job than the government of rolling them out. Because eventually if they make them too expensive / too hard to use / too unreliable customers will simply go elsewhere. With a government-run monopoly if you don't like the service / it's too expensive / too unreliable then tough. You'll have to live with it as you have no alternative. And the people running it will still have a job regardless of how incompetently they do it so what's their incentive to make it actually work well? Same as in the NHS there seems to be zero incentive to provide a good standard of care to your patients and actually look after them, because patients have nowhere else to go. Complain and you're told, "it's free, what did you expect?"  You assume the the only thing that can incentivise a person or organisation is money.  However, a focus on money can leading to 'streamlining' which is often at the expense of good care.  The reason why private healthcare is so much better and cheaper in the UK than the US is that they have to compete against the NHS.  In the case of EV charging, the danger of the private providers forming some kind of cartel is incredibly high.  It's happened time and time again with markets like this.

 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

 

 

As an aside it really does my head in when people can't use units for power and energy properly - "The net gain was a disappointing 9.5% of our total battery capacity, equivalent to 5.32 kWh, or 532 Watts per hour." - I mean what does this actually mean?

 

I think he means 532Wh per hour, or 532 Watts, but as written it's nonsensical.

It is probably not what was meant but a battery not only has a capacity in terms of total energy deliverable but also the rate at which it can be delivered without destroying the innards.

[phantom_iv]

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

It is probably not what was meant but a battery not only has a capacity in terms of total energy deliverable but also the rate at which it can be delivered without destroying the innards.

Which is surely measured in Watts? I can't really find a use for "Watts per hour" other than maybe the rate at which solar power increases as the sun rises? 

[phantom_iv]

25 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Are you seriously saying that small, unprofitable stations would have been more likely to stay open under private ownership?

Probably not, but they were opened under private ownership and closed under public.

 

28 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You assume the the only thing that can incentivise a person or organisation is money.  However, a focus on money can leading to 'streamlining' which is often at the expense of good care.  The reason why private healthcare is so much better and cheaper in the UK than the US is that they have to compete against the NHS.  In the case of EV charging, the danger of the private providers forming some kind of cartel is incredibly high.  It's happened time and time again with markets like this.

I assume no such thing. But if performance, good or bad, has no consequences one way or the other (as seems to happen in the public sector), then you can't expect good performance as a result.

 

Regarding cartels, firstly we already have competition laws for things like this, but also the barrier to market entry is fairly low for EV charging I'd have thought - the equipment isn't terribly expensive and electricity supplies are commonplace - which might make a price-fixing cartel rather hard to maintain in this sort of market I'd expect. Major cost will be wholesale cost of electric I'd have thought. You can form as big a cartel as you like but watch what happens if I open a charging station just down the road with significantly lower prices...

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

Which is surely measured in Watts? I can't really find a use for "Watts per hour" other than maybe the rate at which solar power increases as the sun rises? 

Watt hours per hour?

1 hour ago, phantom_iv said:

Probably not, but they were opened under private ownership and closed under public.

 

I assume no such thing. But if performance, good or bad, has no consequences one way or the other (as seems to happen in the public sector), then you can't expect good performance as a result.

 

Regarding cartels, firstly we already have competition laws for things like this, but also the barrier to market entry is fairly low for EV charging I'd have thought - the equipment isn't terribly expensive and electricity supplies are commonplace - which might make a price-fixing cartel rather hard to maintain in this sort of market I'd expect. Major cost will be wholesale cost of electric I'd have thought. You can form as big a cartel as you like but watch what happens if I open a charging station just down the road with significantly lower prices...

But competition laws (national) are pretty much as effective as a fishing net against a torpedo. Hence why most European countries, inc UK, are troubled by the likes of Amazon. There a a bit than can be done when a multi national does physical business in a country but not when it is all on the internet.

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I bought a new LED TV some years ago and while reseting the wall clock when we went from summer to winter time knocked it over breaking the screen. Took it for repair and it was cheaper to buy a new one, the price had over halved in 2 years.

 

Funny you should say that I have broke 2 this year! first was old, second was nearly new had to take it down of the wall, put it back up and wouldnt work! still under warranty so asked for new one, they wanted to repair it but the lockdown sorted that out so have a nice new one now free of charge ?