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13 minutes ago, DaveP said:

Maybe electric narrowboats are almost here....
 

New kit costs:

15kw electric motor kit - 3k, 15kw batteries - 6.5k, 3kw panels (using about 12m of cabin top) - 2.5k. Total 12k. 

Panels will produce 2kwh in the depths of winter, allowing a 30min cruise each day, and 1kwh for living.  The batteries provide a week-long backup in the event of total panel failure to generate....

 

This means that you still need a solid-fuel stove and alternative cooking and water-heating (gas) arrangements - or a back boiler etc. [Living aboard, I reckon I use 3.5kWh of gas/day, and 48kWh of coal/stove /day when running 24-7].

 

A new diesel costs about 6k.

 

I'm presuming they're about the same cost to fit into the boat.  But then the diesel has running costs(say 400/yr), whilst the electric gets a 25% licence discount from CRT(say 200/yr).  So the break-even point comes after about 10-12 years.

 

It is the winter heating that's the elephant - needing a 2kw continuous feed....

 

The motor cost more than that same price as a diesel in fact, it has 30 kwh of batteries as well. They have in build these boats or on order so people are putting their money where their mouths are, plus what happens in just over 4 years time when you cant put a diesel engine in? A lot of boat builders will be scrabbling to learn what to do, or go go under, Finesse have taken the step of being at the forefront rather than being an also ran

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55 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

lbs thrust is the best measurement of any outboard because it measures the actual force that drives the boat (taking into account that the lbs thrust is measured in the static condition and when the boat is moving things will be slightly different because the propeller is operating under different conditions).

 

hp measurements are the power of the powerhead and do not take account of any losses in the transmission and the propeller efficiency. 

 

for the record, my 40lb Minn Kota should consume 500 watts at full throttle, but actually draws 30amps or about 350 watts.  that produces a speed in still air and water of 5.3kph.  the boat was specifically designed for low drag and has a waterline length of 20ft, maximum beam on the waterline is 3ft (actual beam at the gunwale is 5ft), displacement is 600kg and the hull is very fine with a very shallow transom.  next year I will experiment with a higher pitch prop but any increase in power consumption needs to be balanced against the speed improvements because in my case the range (distance and/or duration) is critical.    I would never want to use an electric outboard on a hull that wasn't specifically designed for low resistance.   a typical cruiser has a wide and relatively deep immersed transom that will create a lot of resistance (the turbulence that you see behinds a typical cruiser is a sign of wasted power).   your hull should ideally be as close to a canoe shape as possible.

 

there are several formulae available to find the resistance of a boat when moving through the water (a measure of skin friction plus wave making at any given speed) - google boat hull drag calculation and take account of the unfair shape of your hull.    an electric outboard providing say 50% more thrust than the calculated resistance should do just fine.

 

this article makes interesting reading regarding hull shapes:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1803.10695.pdf

 

 

 

100watt panel approx 100cm x 50cm.  10kw is unrealistic unless you have a dutch barge of huge widebeam.

A very interesting reply.

It seems there are other boaters looking at electric propulsion.It bodes well for the future.

Heating and cooking seem to be one of the problems to be overcome as well of course of battery charging.

It may not be possible just yet to be completely reliant on solar and charging,but a solid fuel heater/cooker burning wood may be a stop gap.

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8 minutes ago, peterboat said:

The motor cost more than that same price as a diesel in fact, it has 30 kwh of batteries as well. They have in build these boats or on order so people are putting their money where their mouths are, plus what happens in just over 4 years time when you cant put a diesel engine in? A lot of boat builders will be scrabbling to learn what to do, or go go under, Finesse have taken the step of being at the forefront rather than being an also ran

 

If I'm reading the 'rules' correctly :

 

Boats built after 2025 MUST be capable of either running on, or converting to 'Zero emissions'.

Boats built after 2035 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

All boats in use by 2050 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If I'm reading the 'rules' correctly :

 

Boats built after 2025 MUST be capable of either running on, or converting to 'Zero emissions'.

Boats built after 2035 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

All boats in use by 2050 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

Well all boats can be converted, I am on with my 3rd for a friend, it's a Colvic with large roof area so good for solar. Lynch electric motor, BMW I3 batteries, 4QD speed controller job done 

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59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

All boats in use by 2050 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

OMG I'm 30 years ahead of the game !!

 

 

 

 

................  actually not quite true 'cos next year I plan to reintroduce my 2hp Johnson 2 stroke as an auxiliary, both for a bit of fun (how fast can you drive a canoe hull?) and for use when battling against wind and current (in my case typically when negotiating Henley Reach going upstream).

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Just now, Murflynn said:

OMG I'm 30 years ahead of the game !!

 

 

 

 

................  actually not quite true 'cos next year I plan to reintroduce my 2hp Johnson 2 stroke as an auxiliary, both for a bit of fun (how fast can you drive a canoe hull?) and for use when battling against wind and current (in my case typically when negotiating Henley Reach going upstream).

When I was chatting to Richard he told me Azure an electric NB had crossed the Wash which I find impressive. 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If I'm reading the 'rules' correctly :

 

Boats built after 2025 MUST be capable of either running on, or converting to 'Zero emissions'.

Boats built after 2035 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

All boats in use by 2050 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

The first & second statements confirm that builders can still fit diesel engines up to 2035.  Any boat is capable of being converted.

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The economics of an electric boat make sense already -- especially if you want a decent amount of 230V power on a diesel boat -- but the big issue is charging. Solar helps but unless you're like Peter (widebeam boat, doesn't cruise much) another power source is needed, especially in the winter. Having an onboard generator removes the main point of going electric, so the only way this will ever work is a network of charging points. As was pointed out this could start on popular hire boat routes, but unless it eventually spreads over the whole network this will still not work. The infrastructure cost isn't as big as some people keep making out, there are many places on the canals with grid access right next to it, for example all towns and villages or groups of houses -- there aren't many stretches of the canal with absolutely nothing like this for a long (more than a day's cruising) stretch. But what is missing is the will from CART (and the government) to make this happen...

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If I'm reading the 'rules' correctly :

 

Boats built after 2025 MUST be capable of either running on, or converting to 'Zero emissions'.

Boats built after 2035 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

All boats in use by 2050 MUST use only zero emission power plant.

 

The rules you quote for 2025 and 2035 refer only to 'zero emission propulsion', so (unless there are other rules) boaters will be free to continue to use fossil fuels for space and water heating and domestic electricity generation.

 

And the references to 'low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options' suggest that some sort of oil-based fuel is going to continue to be used.

Edited by David Mack

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‘Naval’ gazing to be sure……….

Inland canal traffic, does this have a significant effect upon UK emissions, compared with road, aircraft, large marine systems, and farting cattle?

 

The efficiency of power plants like nuclear, and natural gas turbine, here used for prime generation and extensively for backup support. These technologies are based on a thermodynamic cycle, which efficiency is in the order of 35%. This massive balance being wasted to atmosphere if it cannot be captured.

 

Losses due to wind power, and solar are greatly reduced as the thermal cycle is not involved. The overall losses between the power plant and consumers is then in the range between 8 and 15%, even for these renewable systems. Losses occurred during each transformation through the grid network and transmission lines, again generating heat.

 

The prospect of installing power distribution canal side, further increasing the transmission losses; the taps for potable water are demonstrably poor, and have been for years, what hope can there be for copper wires buried in the towpath? If CaRT get wind of this little scheme we are all ‘doomed’, the ‘marketing’ department will have a political field day, electric bike charging becomes a possibility.

 

The storage of electrical energy has a long way to go yet, transporting a ton of leaky storage, under the bed with the potential to produce millions of Volt Amperes of fault current, fails to convince me yet; that this is an efficient process. The nature of canal boat electrical systems being ‘bespoke’ at best. Diesel may get a bit murky over time but relatively inert and safe to store.

 

Also, are we not responsible for preserving the tradition, not my Kubota I am thinking, but the ‘donk donk’ of the traditional power plant is part of the life, and the living heritage.

 

We are aware this is driven by people, decision makers, young hearty people, who are dimly aware of their surroundings; and to have a rudimentary knowledge of this heritage would be a stretch to far. The proposed dates, By 2050 No non-zero emission boats can be used in UK waters (coastal or inland)’ are fanciful in the extreme.

 

And what is the point, have we not bigger things to be occupied with?

Dredging, repairs, reservoir supplies, lock gates, sluices, ground paddles, the heart of the system, and not failing to repeat a mantra ‘This Heritage’.

 

Edited by Tractor
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27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And the references to 'low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options' suggest that some sort of oil-based fuel is going to continue to be used.

 

Hydrogen

LNG

Amonia

 

The planned bulk supply locations - note that it is proposed to feed Hydrogen down the gas main.

 

Screenshot (272).png

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40 minutes ago, IanD said:

The infrastructure cost isn't as big as some people keep making out, there are many places on the canals with grid access right next to it, for example all towns and villages or groups of houses -- there aren't many stretches of the canal with absolutely nothing like this for a long (more than a day's cruising) stretch.

The existing infrastructure is in the streets, not along the canal side. So additional cabling will be needed simply to get from the street to the waterside. That will cost money. 

But at the same time, that existing infrastructure in towns and villages and groups of houses is going to be asked to do more - to charge the cars belonging to the residents, to heat their homes once gas fired central heating has been banned etc. So the local supply cables, and the grid system supplying them are going to need upgrading, and any canal use is going to have to contribute to those costs too. It will be costly.

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4 hours ago, DaveP said:

It's happening.  Whole load of closures this and next month to install bollards from York Way to City Road lock.  And then the moorings become bookable only, and only single mooring, and only for one week.  If you're a cc'er you can't get an online account to use the bollards....

 

I recall I wrote to BW/CRT 3 times regarding the provision of electricity bollards also suggesting that the MeterMacs system in use on the Waterside Moorings sites should be extended to all boaters, who wished to take advantage, possibly with an annual 'registration' charge. At the very least this would enable boaters to make use of unused hookups at those sites which have visitor moorings mixed in with permanent moorings. Such as Boston, Ocker Hill, Cuckoo Wharf.

 

The problem was that each time the respondent said it was a good idea and would consider it. Each time within a few months they had moved on meaning you had to start from square one.

 

Incidentally once you have a MeterMacs account you keep it, even when you give up the mooring.

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Just now, pearley said:

 

Incidentally once you have a MeterMacs account you keep it, even when you give up the mooring.

 

Indeed so; I still have £4 credit on mine and it worked in Hythe Bridge the other year.  I am planning on making a booking on the Boris moorings for a week in January....

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3 hours ago, DaveP said:

Maybe electric narrowboats are almost here....
 

New kit costs:

15kw electric motor kit - 3k, 15kw batteries - 6.5k, 3kw panels (using about 12m of cabin top) - 2.5k. Total 12k. 

Panels will produce 2kwh in the depths of winter, allowing a 30min cruise each day, and 1kwh for living.  The batteries provide a week-long backup in the event of total panel failure to generate....

 

This means that you still need a solid-fuel stove and alternative cooking and water-heating (gas) arrangements - or a back boiler etc. [Living aboard, I reckon I use 3.5kWh of gas/day, and 48kWh of coal/stove /day when running 24-7].

 

A new diesel costs about 6k.

 

I'm presuming they're about the same cost to fit into the boat.  But then the diesel has running costs(say 400/yr), whilst the electric gets a 25% licence discount from CRT(say 200/yr).  So the break-even point comes after about 10-12 years.

 

It is the winter heating that's the elephant - needing a 2kw continuous feed....

 

We are in the process of having a widebeam built and had intended to go the hybrid route. Currently our narrowboat has a built-in diesel generator and we cook electric. 

 

We approached Fischer Panda 20 KW motor, 48 volt gennie £49000. Hybrid Marine, 20 KW motor, Beta 105 engine £35000. Lynch the cheapest but not quoting like for like and never came back with revised quote despite several phone reminders.

 

Beta 60, Beta Genset 10, batteries, Victron inverter/charger, etc. leaving over £15000 in hand. I can buy an awful lot of extra diesel with that.

 

The CRT licence fee reduction is only if there is no direct drive from gennie to prop so hybrid doesn't get it. EA, where we will be, no reduction if you have onboard gennie.

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this is also worth reading if you are interested in light electric craft: 

 

ELECTRIC OUTBOARD DRIVE for SMALL BOATS
A Do-It-Yourself Handbook
July 15, 2010
by Todd Wells

 

I downloaded it as a PDF for free.  it deals with 'freight canoes' and other small boats on U.S. lakes and rivers.   it is a mine of information.

 

there is an Electric Boat Association that seems to be inactive but last time I checked they still had some advice notes that you may have to pay a subscription for. 

they largely deal with river and lake launches with inboard motors, but the advice on hull design is clear.
 

 

Edited by Murflynn

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32 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

this is also worth reading if you are interested in light electric craft: 

 

ELECTRIC OUTBOARD DRIVE for SMALL BOATS
A Do-It-Yourself Handbook
July 15, 2010
by Todd Wells

 

I downloaded it as a PDF for free.  it deals with 'freight canoes' and other small boats on U.S. lakes and rivers.   it is a mine of information.

 

there is an Electric Boat Association that seems to be inactive but last time I checked they still had some advice notes that you may have to pay a subscription for. 

they largely deal with river and lake launches with inboard motors, but the advice on hull design is clear.
 

 

There is also a fairly active Facebook group.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/electricboatsandships/?ref=share

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4 hours ago, pearley said:

We are in the process of having a widebeam built and had intended to go the hybrid route. Currently our narrowboat has a built-in diesel generator and we cook electric. 

 

We approached Fischer Panda 20 KW motor, 48 volt gennie £49000. Hybrid Marine, 20 KW motor, Beta 105 engine £35000. Lynch the cheapest but not quoting like for like and never came back with revised quote despite several phone reminders.

 

Beta 60, Beta Genset 10, batteries, Victron inverter/charger, etc. leaving over £15000 in hand. I can buy an awful lot of extra diesel with that.

 

The CRT licence fee reduction is only if there is no direct drive from gennie to prop so hybrid doesn't get it. EA, where we will be, no reduction if you have onboard gennie.

You need to contact finesse and talk to Richard 

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In 20 years those of us that are left will look back and think :

 

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

Head in Sand.jpg

......but at least everybody will have a place to park their (electric) bike.....

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

You need to contact finesse and talk to Richard 

Too late for that. Shell has now been built. Would be onboard if Covid hadn't intervened.

 

Anyway, did speak to Finesse at Crick 2019 but too expensive for our budget.

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On 25/09/2020 at 19:02, Alan de Enfield said:

By 2025 we expect that:

i. All vessels operating in UK waters are maximising the use of energy efficiency options. All new vessels being ordered for use in UK waters are being designed with zero emission propulsion capability. Zero emission commercial vessels are in operation in UK waters.

ii. The UK is building clean maritime clusters focused on innovation and infrastructure associated with zero emission propulsion technologies, including bunkering of low or zero emission fuel.

 

By 2035 we expect that:

iii. The UK has built a number of clean maritime clusters. These combine infrastructure and innovation for the use of zero emission propulsion technologies. Low or zero emission marine fuel bunkering options are readily available across the UK.

 

By 2050 No non-zero emission boats can be used in UK waters (coastal or inland)

The elephant in the room when it comes to Gov.UK's  Marine 2050 Plan is in the underlined word above. It can't be sustained.

When I worked in industry if were to put any proposal before a board with such a woolly, unmeasurable objective I'd have been ordered out of the room immediately, my esteem in tatters. 

Likewise any board or executive would be delighted to accept any objective using the word "expect" as they may ignore it and not fail.

"Well you expected and we did our best"

In many languages the words "Wait" "Hope" and "Expect" are the same word.  In fact in English they are often interchangeable.  

The dictionary says - Anticipate, hope for, look forward to, presume, suppose.  None of these verbs are what they call Action Verbs, they are suggestions only, or at best what is likely to be preferred.

(Definition of an Action Verb - Action verbs, also called dynamic verbs, express an action whether it be physical or mental. An action verb explains what the subject of the sentence is doing , has done, or must do. Expect, Hope and Wait are not dynamic, can not be demonstrated nor observed.) 

 

So, when it doesn't happen, the explanation will be.

"Although we signed up to this 5, 15 or 30 years ago, we always knew new technology and immense capital investment would be required. Sadly it was not forthcoming, however progress in different areas have assisted us to reduce blah blah blah anyway."

 

None of what I am saying reflects my personal preferences regarding Gov.UK's  Marine 2050 Plan.

However I fully expect, hope and wait for your assurance that I do eagerly await the opportunity to discard my 50 year old boat because of its treacherous diesel engine.

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9 hours ago, zenataomm said:

The elephant in the room when it comes to Gov.UK's  Marine 2050 Plan is in the underlined word above. It can't be sustained.

When I worked in industry if were to put any proposal before a board with such a woolly, unmeasurable objective I'd have been ordered out of the room immediately, my esteem in tatters. 

Likewise any board or executive would be delighted to accept any objective using the word "expect" as they may ignore it and not fail.

"Well you expected and we did our best"

In many languages the words "Wait" "Hope" and "Expect" are the same word.  In fact in English they are often interchangeable.  

The dictionary says - Anticipate, hope for, look forward to, presume, suppose.  None of these verbs are what they call Action Verbs, they are suggestions only, or at best what is likely to be preferred.

(Definition of an Action Verb - Action verbs, also called dynamic verbs, express an action whether it be physical or mental. An action verb explains what the subject of the sentence is doing , has done, or must do. Expect, Hope and Wait are not dynamic, can not be demonstrated nor observed.) 

 

So, when it doesn't happen, the explanation will be.

"Although we signed up to this 5, 15 or 30 years ago, we always knew new technology and immense capital investment would be required. Sadly it was not forthcoming, however progress in different areas have assisted us to reduce blah blah blah anyway."

 

None of what I am saying reflects my personal preferences regarding Gov.UK's  Marine 2050 Plan.

However I fully expect, hope and wait for your assurance that I do eagerly await the opportunity to discard my 50 year old boat because of its treacherous diesel engine.

 

I cannot disagree - the 'thing' is that much of the world has signed up to the same targets.

Particularly the EU who have stated that they will be the first to reach the target, but 'the race has started' with the UK saying the same.

 

It matters not to me - I'm unlikely to be around in another 30 years, and, if I am I'll not be boating.

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