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NB Caelmiri

Declaring a home mooring

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not I sir.

 

It was the Judge and Nigel's interpretation

You mean your whole post was a quote? Certainly the judge's decision was much as I have summarised, that movement to enable living on the boat was not bona fide, but living on the boat to enable movement was. It's all about bona fide and intention. About whether you start with what you want to use your boat for and apply for the appropriate licence, or start by deciding what licence you want for other reasons then use the boat to suit. I recall at the time a legal opinion that always staying right up to 14 days may evidence a lack of bona fide by suggesting a prioritisation of place over the activity of navigation.

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2 hours ago, Goliath said:

If you take on a home mooring you must inform CRT

But I’d want to first establish whether it’s ok to use this mooring as a home mooring. Ask CRT.  Are there other boats there?
Don’t take a landowners word, or your employers word that all will be ok. 

It may involve a change of use from a casual visitors mooring to a home mooring and therefore a charge. Dunno?
 

The benefit of having a home mooring is you can haunt the same circuit of boozers within a short range repeatedly without consequence. 
 

Whenever I’ve taken a mooring in a marina for any length of time, even just a month, I’ve notified CRT. It’s dead simple. And I always do it over the phone, keeps them awake. 

And I let my insurance company know too. Never had a discount mind. 

to add: whether you tell CRT your gonna live on the boat or use the mooring for leisure is your choice. I personally wouldn’t bring up the subject of living on the boat. 

using a mooring is, in general, not a matter of concern to CaRT, rather the Local Planning Authority. CaRT would only, I guess, be concerned if they owned the mooring and incurred a council tax liability

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2 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

Almost a refreshing change to resurrect this old chestnut after a diet of Brexit and covid.

Covid has been a great excuse for some liveaboards to travel even less than 20 miles p.a. !!

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18 minutes ago, PhilR said:

Covid has been a great excuse for some liveaboards to travel even less than 20 miles p.a. !!

They still have 8 months in the year

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32 minutes ago, PhilR said:

Covid has been a great excuse for some liveaboards to travel even less than 20 miles p.a. !!

Could being a liveaboard be a great excuse to travel during Covid? if I declare myself to be a CCer to CRT and change my insurance cover from leisure use to residential and move aboard from my previous residence would I be able to cruise under lockdown? What does the panel think?

 

NB take it as a given that Mr Cummings has driven thro' Govt. advice - I only want to be covered by insurance and not fall foul of CRT or my home mooring.

Edited by nikvah
additional info

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9 minutes ago, nikvah said:

Could being a liveaboard be a great excuse to travel during Covid? if I declare myself to be a CCer to CRT and change my insurance cover from leisure use to residential and move aboard from my previous residence would I be able to cruise under lockdown? What does the panel think?

 

NB take it as a given that Mr Cummings has driven thro' Govt. advice - I only want to be covered by insurance and not fall foul of CRT or my home mooring.

If you feel like doing it, just do it, its up to you, who is likely to catch you. Its between you and your conscience 

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25 minutes ago, nikvah said:

Could being a liveaboard be a great excuse to travel during Covid? if I declare myself to be a CCer to CRT and change my insurance cover from leisure use to residential and move aboard from my previous residence would I be able to cruise under lockdown? What does the panel think?

 

NB take it as a given that Mr Cummings has driven thro' Govt. advice - I only want to be covered by insurance and not fall foul of CRT or my home mooring.

You are allowed to go out for a day cruise but not stay aboard overnight. However, I suppose it is possible that you might have an engine or electrical problem which means an enforced overnight stay?

In the unlikely event that you had to do so I am sure you would be at less risk than other self isolating people

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1 hour ago, PhilR said:

You are allowed to go out for a day cruise but not stay aboard overnight.

I suppose you could go cruising overnight and sleep during the day after all it's only dark at this time of year for a few hours after all it doesn't say you can't travel overnight.

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10 hours ago, Mike Adams said:

I suppose you could go cruising overnight and sleep during the day after all it's only dark at this time of year for a few hours after all it doesn't say you can't travel overnight.

The government rules say you are not allowed to be away from you primary residence overnight, nothing to do with sleeping.  But you knew that!

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If you want to ignore Government advice and I am sure there are many who do, just do it, its highly unlikely anyone will catch you. it us to you to decide

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14 hours ago, nikvah said:

Could being a liveaboard be a great excuse to travel during Covid? if I declare myself to be a CCer to CRT and change my insurance cover from leisure use to residential and move aboard from my previous residence would I be able to cruise under lockdown? What does the panel think?

 

NB take it as a given that Mr Cummings has driven thro' Govt. advice - I only want to be covered by insurance and not fall foul of CRT or my home mooring.

If you are a CC, of course you can cruise, but you will have to follow the CC rules which are more stringent than for a home moorer. And, of course, you will lose the right to your home mooring which presumably you currently want or need, so you'll have the hassle of finding another one later...

Alternatively, you could wait three weeks until we expect the system to be open to everyone & get the best of all possible worlds!

ETA, actually, you don't need to do any of that mucking about, just go cruising and if anyone asks, lie.  Why should you be different from the government advisers?

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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40 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If you want to ignore Government advice and I am sure there are many who do, just do it, its highly unlikely anyone will catch you. it us to you to decide

The advice is clear but I cannot understand how it reduces transmission as I will be no more or less at risk than any other day boater and will not have to travel back 3 hours to another residence so less risk to fellow motorists and the emergency services.

 

I feel we have just been lumped in with caravan parks where the residents are unwelcome in some parts of the country at present.

 

As MPs now have to vote in person many will have to stay overnight in London after a division. I appreciate there is little chance of being caught unless there is an accident so I am concerned I may not be covered by insurance if I am out overnight as a leisure boater.

Edited by nikvah
clarity

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5 minutes ago, nikvah said:

The advice is clear but I cannot understand how it reduces transmission as I will be no more or less at risk than any other day boater and will not have to travel back 3 hours to another residence so less risk to fellow motorists and the emergency services.

 

I feel we have just been lumped in with caravan parks where the residents are unwelcome in some parts of the country at present.

 

As MPs now have to vote in person many will have to stay overnight in London after a division. I appreciate there is little chance of being caught unless there is an accident and worry I may not be covered if I am out overnight as a leisure boater.

Do you worry about your car insurance not being valid if you are away from home overnight  against Government advice or your house insurance if you are not there when you should be? 

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It doesn't reduce transmission, it's just that formulating general rules fast throws up anomalies for minorities. Makes no sense, but we're stuck with it. You can't write simple rules that cover every eventuality, so it isn't worth bothering about.

If a law offends you too much, just ignore it - as long as you're prepared to accept the fallout. Personally, as I quite fancy living through this pandemic, I don't mind the odd bit of illogic.  Others obviously disagree, but I don't see  me missing out on a few weeks or months boating as a life-destroying experience, though my wife, who has to put up with me at home, may of course see things differently.

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1 minute ago, nikvah said:

The advice is clear but I cannot understand how it reduces transmission as I will be no more or less at risk than any other day boater and will not have to travel back 3 hours to another residence so less risk to fellow motorists and the emergency services.

 

I feel we have just been lumped in with caravan parks where the residents are unwelcome in some parts of the country at present.

 

As MPs now have to vote in person many will have to stay overnight in London after a division. I appreciate there is little chance of being caught unless there is an accident and worry I may not be covered if I am out overnight as a leisure boater.

It's not going to invalidate your insurance. As for "caught", what's the worst that would happen? You get told to go home and you go home. Nothing to stop you just relicensing and keep your mooring. CaRT may well check that a declared mooring is indeed yours but they don't, won't and can't check that you don't have one. I'm pretty confident that you wouldn't be a transmission risk so long as you are social distancing and now that it's been decided that external surfaces don't hold the virus and everyone can go to beaches and beauty spots why not?

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Do you worry about your car insurance not being valid if you are away from home overnight  against Government advice or your house insurance if you are not there when you should be? 

Hmmm, now you mention it, good point.

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3 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

now that it's been decided that external surfaces don't hold the virus

Has it?  I missed that.

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19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Isn't that around the figure that the IWA want C&RT to introduce as the minimum CC requirement ?

 

Edit - found it :

 

Stella Ridgeway, Chair, and Mark Tizard, Vice Chair, of the National Association of Boat Owners, said that the RBOA had joined the Inland Waterways Association in calling for a range increase for boats with no home mooring, but that this could potentially cause legal problems if adopted by the Canal and River Trust.

“NABO remains of the belief that it is for CRT to define what constitutes 'bona fide' navigation from their perspective as the navigation authority further having defined it recently by granting (full) licences to (boaters) previously (given) restricted (licences), it is difficult for them to redefine it in line with the IWA/RBOA wishes,” they told LB News.

“We remain keen for CRT to enforce regular movement using its existing powers,” they added.

 

The powerful and influential Inland Waterways Association have submitted their current policy – available on their website - to the Trust’s national licence review which calls for the range requirement criteria of the current ‘continuous cruiser’ guidance to be increased to 100 miles, with a total distance travelled requirement of 300 miles, of which at least 60 miles must be covered in every quarter of the year.

 

The London branch of the National Bargee Traveller Association – which represents boats with no home moorings – reacted with fury to the IWA and the RBOA’s calls for a distance increase, telling LB News that it was in direct conflict with the current law and that the RBOA statement came from a “place of prejudice.”

The RBOA’s preference for a 200-300 mile distance comes from a place of prejudice,” said an NBTAL spokesperson.

“Prejudice against working people who are travelling boaters; against bargee traveller families; and boaters who are physically or mentally ill, as opposed to those boaters who use the waterways as a place for their hobbies or leisure who may have a boat as a second home. The waterways are a place for a range of people and they are not just for a certain kind of person,” they added.

 

“The RBOA’s statement talks of London (and Bath) having too many boats; and a dislike of boats without home moorings 'with having lifestyle connections with one place – for example: education of children, employment or health needs'. This is very telling of the intentions for their envisioned rules. Their intentions are to get rid of a sizeable part of the boaters without home mooring community.”

 

“RBOA seems to have no interest in the law, not just the 1995 Act but the Equality Act 2010. The Equality Act 2010 states that equality adjustment should be made by bodies as such as CRT for people with health needs in order to address unequal opportunity. To demand that all waterway authorities should act against people without home moorings that need to be in a certain area because of health needs is a demand that waterway authorities should break the law under the Equality Act 2010.”

 

Which is why I wouldn't dream of joining the IWA or RBOA.  The intent of their 'policy' is quite clear.  The fact that they are both in bed with each other and with CRT shows clearly that their loyalties don't lie with representing all boaters, just those who fit within their narrow definition.  Shame on them all.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Which is why I wouldn't dream of joining the IWA or RBOA.  The intent of their 'policy' is quite clear.  The fact that they are both in bed with each other and with CRT shows clearly that their loyalties don't lie with representing all boaters, just those who fit within their narrow definition.  Shame on them all.

And likewise, the NBTA (No Boats Travel Anytime) who are the polar opposite of the IWA etc have their own interpretation of the legal requirements.

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16 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

using a mooring is, in general, not a matter of concern to CaRT, rather the Local Planning Authority. CaRT would only, I guess, be concerned if they owned the mooring and incurred a council tax liability

of course, yea,  OP said it was a private mooring, so most likely not a concern to CrT

 

17 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

Almost a refreshing change to resurrect this old chestnut after a diet of Brexit and covid.

Hasn’t lasted long 

Quickly turned to the inevitable, like a stuck record. 

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And likewise, the NBTA (No Boats Travel Anytime) who are the polar opposite of the IWA etc have their own interpretation of the legal requirements.

I don't agree with a lot of what the NBTA say either.  They have a habit of twisting the rules to suit themselves, but at least they are speaking up for those who need it the most.  In many cases the root cause of liveaboards who never move is our broken society and can be attributed to a lack of affordable housing and a lack of mental health care.  I'd prefer to try and help those people, rather than demonise them.  If that means that a few people intentionally get away with breaking the rules, then that's a small price to pay, and those people can be dealt with by CRT under existing legislation anyway.  Introducing a minimum 100 mile range and a 300 mile annual distance is a disgrace.  Bona fide navigation has nothing to do with distance anyway, and CRTs 20-25 mile range is just a suggestion.  The Woowich Ferry exercises bona fide navigation over a quarter mile range.

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2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

 

Which is why I wouldn't dream of joining the IWA or RBOA.  The intent of their 'policy' is quite clear.  The fact that they are both in bed with each other and with CRT shows clearly that their loyalties don't lie with representing all boaters, just those who fit within their narrow definition.  Shame on them all.

I was at a NBTA London meeting a year or two ago (I'm not a member and don't agree with all their policies - some I do, some I don't. I just occasionally popped in to meetings out of curiousity) when someone from the IWA came in to discuss their policies and explain their 300 mile travel requirements.

 

In pretty much his own words, they were using nothing but arbitrary distances that people might cruise on an average journey, based on nothing more than a hunch or opinion. Now if you're retired and use the canal system as a hobby which to be fair many (most?) IWA members do then their arbitrary numbers are probably reasonable and relevant but they absolutely fail to recognise that the canal serves different purposes these days and not just for pleasure boating on weekends. They don't have to like it but they do have to accept it. That people are moving onto boats as a means of having a roof over their head is squarely to be blamed at current and previous governments. People are going to do what they have to do to survive.

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