Declaring a home mooring

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And likewise, the NBTA (No Boats Travel Anytime) who are the polar opposite of the IWA etc have their own interpretation of the legal requirements.

Back on track ?

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

The Woowich Ferry exercises bona fide navigation over a quarter mile range.

And has a mooring to which it returns after every journey.  And is not covered by primary legislation requiring it to be in a different place every 14 days ...

 

So not exactly the same then.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

the canal serves different purposes these days and not just for pleasure boating on weekends.

But those 'weekend pleasure boaters' are unlikely to be 'using' a 'CC licence' so are not required to move any minimum distance.

 

5 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

That people are moving onto boats as a means of having a roof over their head is squarely to be blamed at current and previous governments. People are going to do what they have to do to survive.

Folk who arrive in a campervan and 'claim' a lay-by on the side of the road are not likely to be left there very long before they are moved on by the authorities.

 

 

Yes the country is 'broken' but the answer is not to just flout the law when it is convenient.

Laws should either be changed, new laws issued for specific groups of people, or alternative accommodation provided, other wise the canals could easily become a longitudinal 'doss-house'.

[Dave123]

19 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

You've misinterpreted that. The argument was that his primary purpose was to live aboard and moved only as far as he thought he could get away with to facilitate that. For bona fide to be established he should have wanted to cruise for its own sake more towards as much as he could manage rather than the minimum he thought he could get away with and living aboard is perfectly in line with that. In short, it's not acceptable to minimally move to live aboard, but is acceptable to live aboard to facilitate bona fide navigation throughout the period of the licence.

Yes I agree. Seems like a clear misinterpretation; it's the intent which matters and would (in many cases) be fairly easy to demonstrate living aboard was to facilitate increased navigation rather than vice versa.

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

And has a mooring to which it returns after every journey.  And is not covered by primary legislation requiring it to be in a different place every 14 days ...

 

So not exactly the same then.

I didn't say it was the same.  I was pointing out that it is bona fide navigating.  Distance is immaterial to that.  If there was a ferry on CRT waters (maybe on the Trent?) going from visitor pontoon on one bank, to visitor pontoon on the other bank, would it need a home mooring?  It would be complying to the guidance.  I suspect CRT would attempt to deny it a commercial licence though.

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But those 'weekend pleasure boaters' are unlikely to be 'using' a 'CC licence' so are not required to move any minimum distance.

 

Folk who arrive in a campervan and 'claim' a lay-by on the side of the road are not likely to be left there very long before they are moved on by the authorities.

Depends where they park.  I can think of a converted double decker bus, which parked in sight of the canal in Birmingham, and didn't move for years.

 

Yes the country is 'broken' but the answer is not to just flout the law when it is convenient.

Laws should either be changed, new laws issued for specific groups of people, or alternative accommodation provided, other wise the canals could easily become a longitudinal 'doss-house'.

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But those 'weekend pleasure boaters' are unlikely to be 'using' a 'CC licence' so are not required to move any minimum distance.

 

Folk who arrive in a campervan and 'claim' a lay-by on the side of the road are not likely to be left there very long before they are moved on by the authorities.

 

 

Yes the country is 'broken' but the answer is not to just flout the law when it is convenient.

Laws should either be changed, new laws issued for specific groups of people, or alternative accommodation provided, other wise the canals could easily become a longitudinal 'doss-house'.

Nowt to stop you parking and living in your van (if it’s road legal) on any street for as long as you want. Choose the right spot and don’t upset the neighbours,  you get to remain there indefinitely. 
 

I suspect there are plenty ‘flouting’ the law not through convenience but desperation and necessity. 
 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But those 'weekend pleasure boaters' are unlikely to be 'using' a 'CC licence' so are not required to move any minimum distance.

So the IWA are purposely targeting a sector of the community - not themselves, obviously - the majority of whom comply by the requirements set by the CRT. For what purpose, I wonder.

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Folk who arrive in a campervan and 'claim' a lay-by on the side of the road are not likely to be left there very long before they are moved on by the authorities.

 

 

Yes the country is 'broken' but the answer is not to just flout the law when it is convenient.

Laws should either be changed, new laws issued for specific groups of people, or alternative accommodation provided, other wise the canals could easily become a longitudinal 'doss-house'.

I fully agree with you here.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

12 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I didn't say it was the same.  I was pointing out that it is bona fide navigating.  Distance is immaterial to that.  If there was a ferry on CRT waters (maybe on the Trent?) going from visitor pontoon on one bank, to visitor pontoon on the other bank, would it need a home mooring?  It would be complying to the guidance.  I suspect CRT would attempt to deny it a commercial licence though.

I think this just muddies the waters. 
Confusing the issue further. 
 
You wouldn’t operate a ferry service on a continuous cruiser license. 

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Nowt to stop you parking and living in your van (if it’s road legal) on any street for as long as you want. Choose the right spot and don’t upset the neighbours,  you get to remain there indefinitely. 
 

I suspect there are plenty ‘flouting’ the law not through convenience but desperation and necessity. 
 

 

 

Can you sleep in a motorhome on the street?

 

It’s difficult to give a yes or no answer to this question, with it varying depending on which county of the UK you’re in. But, other than the Caravan Sites & Control of Development Act – and more recent legislation covering gypsies and travellers – there is no specific law which makes it illegal to sleep in a motorhome at the roadside.

 

That’s not to say you won’t be woken with a knock on the door from the police, however, with local authorities taking ownership of highways (this includes lay-bys). So, if they want to move you on, you have little choice but to search out a new spot, as you have no ‘right’ to park any vehicle on the road.

That said, you’re unlikely to run into any issues with parking up your motorhome on the roadside to get some kip provided that the vehicle is not causing an obstruction, you’re not disturbing anyone, and you’re not in the same spot for more than a day or two.

 

You could find it trickier going if you plan on bedding down in a public car park, operated by a local authority, which are usually covered by Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs) which prohibit sleeping, camping and cooking. The TRO may also have a clause that specifies the maximum vehicle weight, classes of vehicle and so on that are permitted to use the car park. Your best bet is to read any signage carefully and play it safe if you’re unsure.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Richard10002]

19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

"............The London branch of the National Bargee Traveller Association – which represents boats with no home moorings – reacted with fury to the IWA and the RBOA’s calls for a distance increase, telling LB News that it was in direct conflict with the current law and that the RBOA statement came from a “place of prejudice.”

The RBOA’s preference for a 200-300 mile distance comes from a place of prejudice,” said an NBTAL spokesperson.

“Prejudice against working people who are travelling boaters; against bargee traveller families; and boaters who are physically or mentally ill, as opposed to those boaters who use the waterways as a place for their hobbies or leisure who may have a boat as a second home. The waterways are a place for a range of people and they are not just for a certain kind of person,” they added. ......."

This bit made me chuckle..... The irony is that  The NBTA seems to be an organisation that is campaigning for liveaboard boaters without a home mooring to be able to stay in one place, and they use descriptions related to "travel", when describing boaters who have no desire or intention of travelling.

 

You can hardly be called a "traveller" if you don't even "travel" 7 miles a week.

 

chuckle, chuckle.... 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

The NBTA seems to be an organisation that is campaigning for liveaboard boaters without a home mooring to be able to stay in one place

 

No Boats Travelling Anywhere

 

National Boats always Tied up Association

[Richard10002]

42 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

That people are moving onto boats as a means of having a roof over their head is squarely to be blamed at current and previous governments. People are going to do what they have to do to survive.

I can see where you are coming from but I always wonder where these people moving onto boats get the money to buy the boat in the first place... never mind the running costs when they move onto the boat.

 

Is there someone somewhere giving away free boats, and giving away money to fund the running costs?

 

Just a thought?

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No Boats Travelling Anywhere

 

National Boats always Tied up Association

Yes... I am obviously way behind on this one  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I can see where you are coming from but I always wonder where these people moving onto boats get the money to buy the boat in the first place... never mind the running costs when they move onto the boat.

 

Is there someone somewhere giving away free boats, and giving away money to fund the running costs?

 

Just a thought?

I guess it differs from person to person. A cruiser can be had for next to nothing and if you're not moving, as is being suggested in this thread, what are your running costs? I believe, although could be wrong, that your boat licence can be funded/partly funded by your local council if you're unemployed. Based on some of the cruisers you'd see in London, not much was being invested into their upkeep. I suspect it's a pretty cheap/free way of living once you've got the boat and warmer than living in a tent.

 

I've heard stories of abandoned boats being salvaged by other people and turned into homes/residences. CRT are happy(ish) that they don't have to fund a boat being removed from the waterways, the abandoner is happy because they don't have to pay for the upkeep, sale or disposal of a boat they no longer want. Although I suspect these instances are few and far between.

 

And of course there are people who are receiving an income, albeit minimum wage, who may have got a loan from their parents/family to buy a narrowboat in not the worst condition.

[Jim Riley]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No Boats Travelling Anywhere

 

National Boats always Tied up Association

So now't to do with stick manipulation and skimpy leotards then? 

https://www.nbta.org.uk/

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, NB Caelmiri said:

I believe, although could be wrong, that your boat licence can be funded/partly funded by your local council if you're unemployed.

Certainly I know of several that were in our marina whose boating was 'fully funded' by the council.

Mooring fees, licence and insurance were all covered and as the BSS was required to obtain a licence that was covered also. The boats never moved for the 7 or 8 years we were there, so, their only costs were food, electricity and gas.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Can you sleep in a motorhome on the street ?

Yes, I understand there’ll be no rights. 
 

but it is doable then?

just keep your head down

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Goliath said:

but it is doable then?

Just as with boats, it is doable until you get moved on.

 

The other aspect (for camping in a public place - ie on the side of a road) is the Vagrancy act, the last known cases tried under this act were in 2014, but previously it was quite regularly used in London (in particular)

 

The Vagrancy Act 1824 (5 Geo. 4. c. 83) is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom that makes it an offence to sleep rough or beg. It remains in force in England and Wales, and anyone found to be sleeping in a public place or to be trying to beg for money can be arrested.

 

In 1988 some 573 people were prosecuted and convicted under the Act in England and Wales, rising to 1,396 by 1989. In May 1990 the National Association of Probation Officers carried out a survey of prosecutions under the Act. That survey revealed that 1,250 prosecutions had been dealt with in 14 magistrates courts in Central London in 1988, which represented an enormous leap in the number of prosecutions under the Act, especially in London.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

42 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

This bit made me chuckle..... The irony is that  The NBTA seems to be an organisation that is campaigning for liveaboard boaters without a home mooring to be able to stay in one place, and they use descriptions related to "travel", when describing boaters who have no desire or intention of travelling.

 

You can hardly be called a "traveller" if you don't even "travel" 7 miles a week.

 

chuckle, chuckle.... 

it’s the arbitrary mileage that organisations spout with no rhyme or reason to suit their own agenda that makes me laff. ? 

 

where did you just get the 7 from? is 8 ok?

 

 

 

 I think I am a traveller

Therefore....?

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Can you sleep in a motorhome on the street?

 

It’s difficult to give a yes or no answer to this question, with it varying depending on which county of the UK you’re in. But, other than the Caravan Sites & Control of Development Act – and more recent legislation covering gypsies and travellers – there is no specific law which makes it illegal to sleep in a motorhome at the roadside.

 

That’s not to say you won’t be woken with a knock on the door from the police, however, with local authorities taking ownership of highways (this includes lay-bys). So, if they want to move you on, you have little choice but to search out a new spot, as you have no ‘right’ to park any vehicle on the road.

That said, you’re unlikely to run into any issues with parking up your motorhome on the roadside to get some kip provided that the vehicle is not causing an obstruction, you’re not disturbing anyone, and you’re not in the same spot for more than a day or two.

 

You could find it trickier going if you plan on bedding down in a public car park, operated by a local authority, which are usually covered by Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs) which prohibit sleeping, camping and cooking. The TRO may also have a clause that specifies the maximum vehicle weight, classes of vehicle and so on that are permitted to use the car park. Your best bet is to read any signage carefully and play it safe if you’re unsure.

Back in the real world:  https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/scores-people-living-vans-bristol-561989

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In 1988 some 573 people were prosecuted and convicted under the Act in England and Wales, rising to 1,396 by 1989. In May 1990 the National Association of Probation Officers carried out a survey of prosecutions under the Act. That survey revealed that 1,250 prosecutions had been dealt with in 14 magistrates courts in Central London in 1988, which represented an enormous leap in the number of prosecutions under the Act, especially in London.

Do you have any figures from less than 30 years ago?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as with boats, it is doable until you get moved on.

 

The other aspect (for camping in a public place - ie on the side of a road) is the Vagrancy act, the last known cases tried under this act were in 2014, but previously it was quite regularly used in London (in particular)

 

The Vagrancy Act 1824 (5 Geo. 4. c. 83) is an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom that makes it an offence to sleep rough or beg. It remains in force in England and Wales, and anyone found to be sleeping in a public place or to be trying to beg for money can be arrested.

 

In 1988 some 573 people were prosecuted and convicted under the Act in England and Wales, rising to 1,396 by 1989. In May 1990 the National Association of Probation Officers carried out a survey of prosecutions under the Act. That survey revealed that 1,250 prosecutions had been dealt with in 14 magistrates courts in Central London in 1988, which represented an enormous leap in the number of prosecutions under the Act, especially in London.

The ‘80’s saw a rise in the number of traveller communities in vans, so I’m not surprised at the leap in the number of prosecutions, as the government and local councils stamped out such behaviour. 
 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

where did you just get the 7 from? is 8 ok?

 

C&RT give a figure to which they say "if you travel less than this we will certainly consider it insufficient", but what they cannot say is that "if you travel more than this you are complying".

 

Remember, at the end of the day that C&RT are the arbiters as you have to 'satisfy' them :

 

"the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.".

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT give a figure to which they say "if you travel less than this we will certainly consider it insufficient", but what they cannot say is that "if you travel more than this you are complying".

 

Remember, at the end of the day that C&RT are the arbiters as : "the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board".

Ok, 

I don’t want to go over old ground or niggle but...where have they (CRT) given a figure?

Can you quote?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Do you have any figures from less than 30 years ago?

I'm sure if you were interested enough you could find them as easily as I can.

 

...........and it is a criminal offence to sleep “in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or waggon, not having any visible means of subsistence”.

 

2008 to 2018

 

2008 = 2100

2100

2600

2200

2000

2600

2700

2200

1700

1200

2018 = 1300

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Mac of Cygnet]

2 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

now that it's been decided that external surfaces don't hold the virus

 

This is a fairly important and game changing statement which I find unlikely at best.  Have you a source for this and has any research been done?  Or is it just the government telling us what we want to hear to justify the easing of lockdown?   I certainly won't be acting on it without further evidence.

2 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Mac of Cygnet

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'm sure if you were interested enough you could find them as easily as I can.

 

...........and it is a criminal offence to sleep “in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or waggon, not having any visible means of subsistence”.

 

2008-2018

 

 

 

There were 1,320 prosecutions under the Vagrancy Act in England and Wales in 2018

0

500

1,000

1,500

2,000

2,500

08

09

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

Whatever happened to squatters rights?

Again, back in the 80’s I knew lots who stayed in squats.