Fitting a wood burning stove

[dmr]

50 minutes ago, jeff thompson said:

Good point from "cut hound" ,mount on port side. As to "DYI" , do you have a plasma cutter? I think a double lined chimney ( i'm in the US) is a safer idea, granted you won't get heat radiating from it , but you, or children , that might be to young to know can get a nasty burn if touched. And as for posting that little bit of extra heat, I think the stove will more than compensate any "added" heat radiated rom the pipe.

 Check out Jono's youtube channel , he has an episode when he had his Morse installed. It will give you a bit more information to make your choice.

 

That's an interesting one, the double skin advocates tell us that it makes the stove more efficient and produce more heat. If there is no heat coming off the flue then more heat must be due to the stove itself running at a higher temperature which increases the risk of burns.

 

............Dave

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

That's an interesting one, the double skin advocates tell us that it makes the stove more efficient and produce more heat. If there is no heat coming off the flue then more heat must be due to the stove itself running at a higher temperature which increases the risk of burns.

 

............Dave

I read somewhere that as most stoves are too powerful most of the time a double wall flue allows the stove to be damped down but the flue still draws (as it is hotter) giving steady burning without overheating the boat, so most of the time saving fuel.  Sounds believable.......

[dmr]

24 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

I read somewhere that as most stoves are too powerful most of the time a double wall flue allows the stove to be damped down but the flue still draws (as it is hotter) giving steady burning without overheating the boat, so most of the time saving fuel.  Sounds believable.......

I suspect that's true, a twin wall flue must help the draw, and getting a decent draw on a short boat flue can be an issue, look at some of those huge chimneys on semi-static liveaboards. But, a good modern stove will likely draw ok, even if damped down, so as long as the draw is ok the argument for a twin wall is a lot weaker.

 

Our old stove did not draw too well so a taller chimney (like on a back cabin stove) with twin wall and rockwool type stuff between the walls certainly helped. Our current stove draws ok with a single skin flue and a short twin walled chimney.

 

..............Dave

[Lily Rose]

5 hours ago, cuthound said:

Also best to fit the stove on the port side of the boat, so that it is always nearest the centre of the canal when passing boats. It helps prevent the chimney from being knocked off on overhanging vegetation.

Definitely agree with this, it's one of the very few things I would change on my boat if I could (be bothered). Every time we are forced to go near offside vegetation it's the chimney I have to watch out for.

[Nightwatch]

1 hour ago, Lily Rose said:

Definitely agree with this, it's one of the very few things I would change on my boat if I could (be bothered). Every time we are forced to go near offside vegetation it's the chimney I have to watch out for.

I shall bear that in mind if we ever approach you front the front.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and keep as far right as we are able. (You didn't expect that did you?)

[Lily Rose]

10 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I shall bear that in mind if we ever approach you front the front.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and keep as far right as we are able. (You didn't expect that did you?)

Nope!

 

Well I didn't have you down as an old leftie but far right is a bit extreme.

 

[Johny London]

Morso do a twin wall flue kit - there is nothing ridiculous looking about it - except the price. I used one (it's got two angles in it) as although very pricey, a lot simpler than trying to get a bunch of individual parts to all line up just so (the morso kit is adjustable) and actually all the individual twin wall bits were not that cheap anyway.

You could recoup the flue over spend by picking up a good used stove and refurbing it yourself (they always need glass/ firebricks/grate etc).

Cutting the roof hole is a doddle - jigsaw, take it nice and slow, still only takes a few minutes really - just make sure it's in the right place!

Get yer skates on - soon be winter!

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Whilst not mandatory, this will give you an ide of what 'best practice' is :

 

 

Oops forgot to attach :

 

British Standard BS 8511:2010 Code of
practice for the installation of solid fuel
heating and cooking appliances in small
craft where much more detailed information
can be found. The code isn't compulsory, but
will always be referred to if an accident occurs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Boat Stoves 1-page.pdf 893.64 kB · 5 downloads

How dose this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Whilst not mandatory, this will give you an ide of what 'best practice' is :

 

 

Oops forgot to attach :

 

British Standard BS 8511:2010 Code of
practice for the installation of solid fuel
heating and cooking appliances in small
craft where much more detailed information
can be found. The code isn't compulsory, but
will always be referred to if an accident occurs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Boat Stoves 1-page.pdf 893.64 kB · 5 downloads

How does this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

[Phil Ambrose]

12 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

I agree you don't need a double skinned flue but no harm in a double shinned chimney.

 

True. I see lots of people doing things wrong and they've been doing it for years! 

A double skinned chimney is essential, single skinned flue pipe is ideal in the boat as it  gives out extra heat. The double skinned chimney increases the draw of the fire .

Phil

[MtB]

12 hours ago, Ex Brummie said:

A double skinned chimney helps with flue draw,

 

Which of course is entirely unnecessary, given when running a Morso (the obvious one to buy) the air vent at the bottom needs to be kept almost closed to stop the stove burning furiously even with a single skin flue. 

 

 

[MtB]

Edit to delete duplicate post.

 

WHY does Invision not fix this bug? Been going on for years. 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Mike the Boilerman

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

 

 

Also think about where the flue is, for example if next to the steps by the front entrance people will tend to grab it getting on the boat, not a good way to welcome visitors.

 

But if the stove is by the bow doors like on 90% of narrowboats then it's been installed in the wrong place.

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said:

A double skinned chimney is essential, single skinned flue pipe is ideal in the boat as it  gives out extra heat. The double skinned chimney increases the draw of the fire .

Phil

 

Not on my fire it didn't. I tried an insulated double skinned chimney on my boat and it made absolutely no difference to the stove draw. I'm not saying it wouldn't work on other stove/ boat setups, but you need to be less absolutist in your statements because that one isn't true!

 

I've spoken to two different flue suppliers and both told me that with a chimney of less than about a metre in length it's unlikely that a double wall chimney would add any benefit in terms of stove draw. They're really only truly beneficial where you have a long external flue going up the side of a building for example. In that case it really would be essential to ensure that flue gases don't cool down in the long flue in order to provide draw.

Edited August 11, 2019 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How dose this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

How does this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

 

I don't know.

I have never needed to look at the requirements for installing a 'fire'.

 

Maybe one of our ex-boat building members can comment ?

[Chewbacka]

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How dose this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

How does this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

This seems to list all the harmonised standards to which the RCD requires compliance.  I did a quick glance down the list and could not see anything specific to the installation of a solid fuel stove.  However it is possible there might be a reference in the standard concerning fire prevention. 

 

 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2019.146.01.0106.01.ENG&toc=OJ:L:2019:146:TOC

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How dose this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

How does this come into play with the RCD if its a new build?

 

Thinking about it - This is ONLY a BS (British Standard) for stove installation.

If it was a requirement of the European Wide RCD then it would have been 'upgraded' to an ISO EN number.

 

Without any further evidence I would suggest that solid fuel stove installation is not covered by the RCD.

[Chewbacka]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thinking about it - This is ONLY a BS (British Standard) for stove installation.

If it was a requirement of the European Wide RCD then it would have been 'upgraded' to an ISO EN number.

 

Without any further evidence I would suggest that solid fuel stove installation is not covered by the RCD.

Yes that’s a good point, but failure to not comply with the stove manufacturers requirements (such as clearance between stove and flammable surfaces) would be a problem.

[MtB]

15 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Yes that’s a good point, but failure to not comply with the stove manufacturers requirements (such as clearance between stove and flammable surfaces) would be a problem.

 

One too many negatives in there I reckon! 

 

But the point remains. Yes failure to comply with manu instructions would lead to the installer and user being responsible, but not an RCD failure. 

 

Manu instructions are probably so conservative as to be impossible to comply with in a boat anyway. 

 

 

[Neil TNC]

I have had this all out with Andrew at Woodworks who will be the boatbuilder of our new NB and his surveyor, who will be signing off the RCD and BSS (yes we have specified both from new). We don't want a twin walled flue - even just through the roof. We want a standard old style collar, so we can use our existing pair of SS twin walled chimneys. The stove will be centrally placed behind the tiled / insulated back of the side dinette. At the end of the day he said it will all come down to adhering to the stove manufacturers installation instructions, which in the case of the flue the distance from any combustible material must be 3 x the diameter of the flue. In the case of the 4 inch flue to be used with our proposed approved stove - Villager Puffin mk2 =12". In our case the only problem area will be exit through the roof. Furnace board will replace the spray foam around the inside of the collar, in a 3" wide ring, then "old standard" ring of Masterboard replacing roof lining. We are still discussing the width of the Masterboard, as we don't want this too unsightly. At the end of the day we might have to:

a) - Have a rather unsightly wide ring of Masterboard around the flue, replacing the ceiling or

b) - "fit the stove ourselves" "after boat handed over" or

c) - Sign a disclaimer to the extent that if the boat catches fire due to the roof lining catching fire, it is down to us

 

Obviously other builders / surveyors may have a different view.

We all know this is overkill. Most of the times we run our existing Puffin mk2 you can touch the top of the flue!

[Johny London]

11 minutes ago, Neil TNC said:

 We don't want a twin walled flue - even just through the roof. We want a standard old style collar, so we can use our existing pair of SS twin walled chimneys.

I don't quite get what you are saying there?

Also, with my flue, the twin wall is within the standard size of the pipe, not extra to - so it doesn't look any different to a single wall.

Surely going twin wall would make the installation easier in as much as being able to position closer to combustible surfaces?

[Ex Brummie]

Proprietary brands of Firestop brackets are available

https://www.fluedirect.co.uk/30-130-070-black-twin-wall-flue-fire-stop-plate-150mm-dia.html

This offers a plate that can be coloured to your requirements. This can be backed with intumescent sealing, and trimmed with mouldings to suit your décor.

[Neil TNC]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

I don't quite get what you are saying there?

Also, with my flue, the twin wall is within the standard size of the pipe, not extra to - so it doesn't look any different to a single wall.

Surely going twin wall would make the installation easier in as much as being able to position closer to combustible surfaces?

As I said we want a single walled flue, so we can use old style collar and our existing twin wall SS chimneys. We do not want stainless steel inside, flimsy collar or to add another grand to the build cost. In our proposed layout, once the flue is free of the insulated back of the dinette, it is centrally placed, in free air until the ceiling. This is the only problem area and will be overcome. Installation will be a doddle.

[Johny London]

Sorry, I just can't quite envision it - you have more than one chimney?

Doesn't matter anyway.