emergency services and what3words

[Thorfast]

Can the responders in an ambulance, fire engine or police car readily access what3words using the location systems they have on board?

[Phil Ambrose]

55 minutes ago, Thorfast said:

What I really dont like about just3words is that it is completely random. One 3m location square could be 'banana,please,shed' and the very next 3m square could be 'gallop,toes,kitchen' There is no progression, no learning sequence to it. 

Smacks of potential money making by the developers to me.

Yet again there is money making mentioned, all through this thread I keep reading " at a cost" etc etc 

My App came free, where is the clutching hand going to come from.

Phil

[TheBiscuits]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Its on my PC as a Pdf so a link won't work.

 

I have dozens of manuals etc saved but …………………………..

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/83075/emergency_mobile_location_information_statement.pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0023/83075/emergency_mobile_location_information_statement.pdf

well done - that's the one.

[Graham Davis]

As has been said about 60% of phones currently do not support ELS, plus where it is functional in it's basic form it only reports the cell information. Fine in urban areas where cells are small, now take a cell in Mid Wales..........................

Then add in that the phone has to have it's GPS turned on to get a more accurate fix. Mine generally doesn't and I know many others who don't either, to help preserve battery life. Atleast with W3W you only need to turn on the GPS for a short time to get the fix, and the Operator can tell you to do that.

 

Paras 1.22 onwards  of the link is relevant.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Graham Davis

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Then add in that the phone has to have it's GPS turned on to get a more accurate fix.

The phone automatically turns on GPS when 999 is dialled and then turns it off after the call.

 

Google is your friend.

[jetzi]

41 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Yet again there is money making mentioned, all through this thread I keep reading " at a cost" etc etc 

My App came free, where is the clutching hand going to come from.

 

You reacted angrily to my post explaining how. So I'm not sure if this is a genuine question or rhetorical?

 

Like most tech companies, what3words are heavily funded by investment. They probably operate at a loss at the moment - just like Uber for example. The monetisation of Uber happens later, once all the investor-subsidised trips have decimated the existing taxi industry because they undercut the market to extinction.

One scenario is that what3words is operating at a loss right now, but once their use is widespread enough, they will  monetise. Hence promoting themselves as a for-the-greater-good technology that will help emergency services. Because who could possibly argue with that?!

 

If what3words actually cared about helping people, they can easily release their algorithm and anyone could replicate their addressing for free. But they don't - exactly how they convert GPS into three words is completely opaque, even though anyone could come up with a similar algorithm in no time at all. They charge heavy users for the privilege of using it, even though it need not cost a penny - the algorithm is simple enough that any phone could do it.

 

Getting paid by heavy users is currently the way they monetise, apart from funding of course. It's possible that they allow emergency services to use their system for free (I don't know), because they know that once it is widespread enough, they will have everyone by the short and curlies. But whoever is paying them, you the consumer pay in the end, whether through tax, a portion of the price of something that uses what3words, or through your personal data and privacy.

 

It is very naive to think that because something is free, you don't pay for it. There is an old but very true adage about whether a certain midday meal ever costs nothing. And there is a newer and truer one that says if you don't pay for something, you aren't the customer, you're the product.

 

I'm sorry if any of this makes anyone angry. I'm not trying to be otherwise or argumentative, just trying to offer a perspective. By all means use what3words if it appeals to you, but I strongly oppose the use of it by any public organisation.

[WotEver]

A couple of years back I witnessed an ultimately fatal lorry crash. I stopped and ran over to the truck whilst dialling 999. I could only give the location as “The A45.  Just outside Coventry. No, not the Fletchamstead Highway bit. No I can’t read the road sign because the lorry knocked it down and is now on top of it”. As other folk arrived I asked where we were exactly and all anyone could offer was “The A45”. The operator asked me to stay on the line while they triangulated my position and eventually the emergency services turned up, including air ambulance. Had W3W been around at the time I could have given them a precise location. 

[jetzi]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Had W3W been around at the time I could have given them a precise location. 

You could have - and still can - give them a precise GPS location. It also works everywhere in the world in every language, requires no signup from users or emergency services, and is completely free.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I just provide the facts.

I am not prepared to speak on behalf of another - why don't you ask him ?

Well ...... the way these forum things work means that anyone can see our posts, so I'm kind of thinking he might see whats going on, and put us straight.

 

Are you saying that the facts you have provided prove that every time a 999 operator receives a call, they also get the location of the caller? - I dont think they do. I think they suggest that sometimes they do, and sometimes they dont. Your helicopter example seems to support what I'm thinking.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

You could have - and still can - give them a precise GPS location. It also works everywhere in the world in every language, requires no signup from users or emergency services, and is completely free.

How do I do that with Google Maps?  I looked at the time and it’s not at all obvious. 

[jetzi]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

How do I do that with Google Maps?  I looked at the time and it’s not at all obvious. 

I don't use Google, but I borrowed a phone now and did it in less than 5 seconds.

 

Press and hold on a location. The GPS coords pop up instantly but soon change to "dropped pin" (unhelpfully). Tap on the "dropped pin" text and it pops up with the coordinates, the postcode and a few other bits of info. You can also tap "share place" to get a link to Google Maps that you can share any way you like.

[Richard10002]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

How do I do that with Google Maps?  I looked at the time and it’s not at all obvious. 

I've looked at Google maps today, and cant find a way. Ian said that was a fault with Google maps, which doesnt actually help when you have people nearby dying in a lorry  

 

I did find a link by searching "my current location", which took me to a place where, if I scrolled down far enough, I found my lat and long.

 

In the heat of the moment, would you have the presence of mind to think up the correct search.... obviously not, or you would have done it. Did the 999 operator have the knowledge to help you to find your location on your phone.... obviously not, she had to do the triangulation thing.

 

Like you say, had you, or she, had knowledge of what3words, the position would have been known withing seconds.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Press and hold on a location. The GPS coords pop up instantly but soon change to "dropped pin" (unhelpfully). Tap on the "dropped pin" text and it pops up with the coordinates, the postcode and a few other bits of info. You can also tap "share place" to get a link to Google Maps that you can share any way you like.

Well there you go, every day is a school day. It changed to a pin instantly for me with no intermediate lat & long but clicking on the pin gives me the info

 

Thanks for the tip

[jetzi]

Just now, Richard10002 said:

I've looked at Google maps today, and cant find a way. Ian said that was a fault with Google maps, which doesnt actually help when you have people nearby dying in a lorry  

 

I did find a link by searching "my current location", which took me to a place where, if I scrolled down far enough, I found my lat and long.

 

In the heat of the moment, would you have the presence of mind to think up the correct search.... obviously not, or you would have done it. Did the 999 operator have the knowledge to help you to find your location on your phone.... obviously not, she had to do the triangulation thing.

 

Like you say, had you, or she, had knowledge of what3words, the position would have been known withing seconds.

While everything you say here is correct, the logic is puzzling. If you had knowledge of what3words, you can know the position within seconds. If you have knowledge of GPS / any mapping app, then the position can be known within seconds. The difference is that GPS is free and what3words is not. So why not educate yourself on the free option?

I'm not sure why you struggled with Google Maps, I found the position within seconds and I never use Google. Were you using it on a mobile or on a PC?

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

In the heat of the moment, would you have the presence of mind to think up the correct search.... obviously not, or you would have done it. Did the 999 operator have the knowledge to help you to find your location on your phone.... obviously not, she had to do the triangulation thing.

Correct assumptions both. I was climbing over the driver to confirm that he was still breathing shallowly although he was going a nasty shade of white and all the operator said to me was to stay on the phone. 

 

Ivan has since told me how to get the lat & long from Google Maps but as I didn’t know at the time I’m not sure how good I’d have been in following directions to achieve that. 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Thorfast said:

Can the responders in an ambulance, fire engine or police car readily access what3words using the location systems they have on board?

If they carry a phone, anyone can if they carry a phone. Sorry smartPhone not my old Nokia

[Richard10002]

7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I don't use Google, but I borrowed a phone now and did it in less than 5 seconds.

 

Press and hold on a location. The GPS coords pop up instantly but soon change to "dropped pin" (unhelpfully). Tap on the "dropped pin" text and it pops up with the coordinates, the postcode and a few other bits of info. You can also tap "share place" to get a link to Google Maps that you can share any way you like.

I tried that earlier, and it didnt work. Just tried it now, and it did. If everybody knew about this, including the 999 operators, and everyone associated with the emergency services, there would be no need for what3words.

 

Having said that, given that you/we are able to do this for free, on Google Maps, surely we are part of a different product, rather than being the customer??

 

Is there a truly free, and publicly provided, way of finding and providing our location?

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

 

Are you saying that the facts you have provided prove that every time a 999 operator receives a call, they also get the location of the caller? - I dont think they do. I think they suggest that sometimes they do, and sometimes they dont. Your helicopter example seems to support what I'm thinking.

You are right

 

1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Yet again there is money making mentioned, all through this thread I keep reading " at a cost" etc etc 

My App came free, where is the clutching hand going to come from.

Phil

Everything costs, cancer drugs cost, drug companies make millions, maybe we should stop using them.

[Keeping Up]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

The difference is that GPS is free and what3words is not.

No, what3words IS free at the moment. Maybe in the future things will be different but now.is.now

[stegra]

A business has the right to make a profit. W3W is never going to have a monopoly and eliminate other methods. If their pricing becomes unreasonable, they will fail. 

[jetzi]

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

I tried that earlier, and it didnt work. Just tried it now, and it did. If everybody knew about this, including the 999 operators, and everyone associated with the emergency services, there would be no need for what3words.

 

Having said that, given that you/we are able to do this for free, on Google Maps, surely we are part of a different product, rather than being the customer??

 

Is there a truly free, and publicly provided, way of finding and providing our location?

Well, "no need" is a bit strong - like I agreed there are some advantages, giving three words over a phone is a bit shorter and easier than coordinates. However I think this is more than outweighed by the fact that those three words mean nothing to the operator - they have to ask What3Words Incorporated what they mean, and What3Words Inc. returns the GPS location to the operator's system.

Better, in my view, to skip the middle man.

This is a big topic, getting away from Google and proprietary software that is, and it can be at times a little technical. But in short I'd recommend you try OsmAnd, it's an app based on OpenStreetMap data, which I believe is much better - particularly when it comes to the waterways! And it is very easy to find your coordinates using it.

OsmAnd and OpenStreetMap itself is what is known as "open source". This is free as in "free beer" but also free as in "free speech", which is actually more important. Open Source means that anyone can read the contents of the app and verify that it is not doing anything nefarious. Not so with What3Words or "proprietary" apps. There have been a couple of big news stories about this involving Facebook and Google. If you're interested in this topic a good place to start is Richard Stallman's article here: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html

[ditchcrawler]

5 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

No, what3words IS free at the moment. Maybe in the future things will be different but now.is.now

With GPS you need an online map to know where you are

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

With GPS you need an online map to know where you are

Or an offline one such as OsmAnd or Locus. 

[Richard10002]

8 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

While everything you say here is correct, the logic is puzzling. If you had knowledge of what3words, you can know the position within seconds. If you have knowledge of GPS / any mapping app, then the position can be known within seconds. The difference is that GPS is free and what3words is not. So why not educate yourself on the free option?

I'm not sure why you struggled with Google Maps, I found the position within seconds and I never use Google. Were you using it on a mobile or on a PC?

It was my phone, (iPhone), and I've no idea why I struggled earlier, but I did.

 

I agree that, once you know, you know    The goal therefore ought to be to educate people on some kind of location identifying "thing", and perhaps the emergency services should be the organisations to select it. Google would be fine, but see below. What3words looks like it would be fine - I like the words and boxes.

 

Having said all that - when you say GPS is free - I cant find a way "in my phone" to find my GPS location, lat and long, or whatever, for "free". As soon as we enter the world of free stuff on apps or the internet, we immediately become a part of that product that you so dislike. So, whether we all become educated on Google Maps, Bing, What3words, and so on, someone, somewhere, is aiming to make some money out of us.