heating yet again

[bigcol]

Hi

 

I have a 57 x 10 ft boat and have a steel stove works a treat 10kw, saloon piping hot windows open etc

but really messy, dust everywhere and using it as our main stay of heating

 

we also have a webasto thermo top 5kw with

1 x 300x 1000 double in the bedroom cool

2 x 300 x 1000 double in the saloon turned off when stove on

1 x 500 700 double in the kitchen nr the wheel house cold

other side of wheel house bathroom freezing1 x 500 x 700 single will be changing to double soon

 

I m now thinking the 5 kw is not powerful enough as we are using the stove as our main heating source

when buying price orientated

 

so thinking of either installing a

1) domestic oil boiler which is a way to go for dutch bargees?

2) or go for the webasto 90 ?

 

any thoughts?

as I would like the diesel heating to be our main source of heating

and the fire stove to be in case

 

all the wife does is dust dust and more dusting

 

Question is

 

has any folks here installed a diesel domestic boiler on their narrow boat, It seems to be most favourable on a Dutch barge?

and any folks had experience of a 5 kw thermotop, and a webasto 90 are they a lot more powerful?

 

many thanks in advance

 

colin

Edited December 3, 2013 by bigcol

[Grace and Favour]

Colin,

 

We've a Webasto 90 -- - - though have to admit that we (very, very) rarely need to use it - but it certainly chucks out heat when it's on.

 

We use a solid fuel stove as our main heating - and burn anthracite and briquettes (sometimes a little timber) - but we have never suffered from it being dusty, or causing a mess of any type - - what is causing the dust for you??

 

[With regard to boilers - - all the boaters I've met that use Kabola boilers, hold them in very high esteem....]

[blackrose]

If you're upgrading diesel heating on a barge I'd go for a drip-fed diesel heater like a Kubola rather than a bigger webasto. I've also seen a drip-fed diesel heater inside a stove that looked like Squirrel, but I'm not sure if it was a Squirrel? Anyway, it looked very good and the owner has been living with it for years very reliably, but like most high-output diesel heaters it was expensive to run.

Edited December 3, 2013 by blackrose

[pquinn]

Colin,

 

We've a Webasto 90 -- - - though have to admit that we (very, very) rarely need to use it - but it certainly chucks out heat when it's on.

 

We use a solid fuel stove as our main heating - and burn anthracite and briquettes (sometimes a little timber) - but we have never suffered from it being dusty, or causing a mess of any type - - what is causing the dust for you??

 

[With regard to boilers - - all the boaters I've met that use Kabola boilers, hold them in very high esteem....]

i would say ashes from cleaning out a coal fire.

[Mike Tee]

If you're upgrading diesel heating on a barge I'd go for a drip-fed diesel heater like a Kubola rather than a bigger webasto. I've also seen a drip-fed diesel heater inside a stove that looked like Squirrel, but I'm not sure if it was a Squirrel? Anyway, it looked very good and the owner has been living with it for years very reliably, but like most high-output diesel heaters it was expensive to run.

Bubble stove?

 

http://www.oilstoves.co.uk/appres.php?select=Stoves&select3=All&select2=Oil&select4=All&Submit=+++++Search+Shop+++++

[bizzard]

When opening the stove door to put more fuel on or whatever, open it very slowly, opening it fast sucks out smoke and dust into the cabin.

[bigcol]

pquinn yes your right,every time we get the poker out and have a ramage, putting more fuel in,and emptying the ash pan

 

and Bizzard we will give this ago, although we tried this when we first got the steel stove, and manage to set smoke alarms off

 

has anyone got a domestic oil central heating boiler installed,?

fuel consumption compared to a webasto?

 

 

 

Grace & favour, as you rarely use it , what's the chance of you selling me your webasto then??

 

col

Edited December 4, 2013 by bigcol

[Robbo]

The webasto at 5Kw (presume decent sprayfoam insulation) should be enough to keep the boat warm. They like to be ran hard. By the looks of it you only have around 5Kw of radiators (total) so adding a larger boiler won't do that much difference.

 

http://www.simplifydiy.com/plumbing-and-heating/radiators/power

[raymondh]

Hi,

We upgraded from a 5Kw Webasto to a 9Kw just over 5 years ago

The 5Kw was fitted from advice given by the then "marine" distributers

I had at the time stated that the unit would not provide enough heat for the

number and output of rads fitted (8 rads total approx10Kw)

5Kw unit as expected would not cope with its first winter use and was replaced with a Webasto 90

The 90 has been great and heats up the boat very quickly BUT uses around 1 litre of kerro per running hour

The unit is controlled by a room stat so it does not cycle down as it would if uncontrolled

The stat was installed following advice that Webasto heaters coke up if left running at the lower output

they cycle down to when the water temp reaches a certain level

Unit now run for 4500 hours

Regards Ray

[Ex- Member]

Hi

 

I have a 57 x 10 ft boat and have a steel stove works a treat 10kw, saloon piping hot windows open etc

but really messy, dust everywhere and using it as our main stay of heating

 

we also have a webasto thermo top 5kw with

1 x 300x 1000 double in the bedroom cool

2 x 300 x 1000 double in the saloon turned off when stove on

1 x 500 700 double in the kitchen nr the wheel house cold

other side of wheel house bathroom freezing1 x 500 x 700 single will be changing to double soon

 

I m now thinking the 5 kw is not powerful enough as we are using the stove as our main heating source

when buying price orientated

 

so thinking of either installing a

1) domestic oil boiler which is a way to go for dutch bargees?

2) or go for the webasto 90 ?

 

any thoughts?

as I would like the diesel heating to be our main source of heating

and the fire stove to be in case

 

all the wife does is dust dust and more dusting

 

Question is

 

has any folks here installed a diesel domestic boiler on their narrow boat, It seems to be most favourable on a Dutch barge?

and any folks had experience of a 5 kw thermotop, and a webasto 90 are they a lot more powerful?

 

many thanks in advance

 

colin

 

Blimy Colin

 

A 10 KW stove? we have a 4kw Bubble stove that's mostly run on the lowest setting, we can heat our water with it too. Our boat is 60f x 10/6 and it's plenty warm enough, 10kw would literally roast us

 

We've been tempted to go for an Eberspacher D4 as a back up but mainly as it's much more controlable. We find that even with the Bubble stove set on lowest the boat gets too hot so have to either switch off or waste heat by opening hatches, the eber would quickly and easily give you heat when required.

 

I really wonder about the quality of much of the boat insulation installed what with people seeming to need 5kw+ to heat even a n/b

 

When we were on dry land a 2kw electric fan heater heated the boat's main cabins sufficiently.

[Grace and Favour]

pquinn yes your right,every time we get the poker out and have a ramage, putting more fuel in,and emptying the ash pan

 

and Bizzard we will give this ago, although we tried this when we first got the steel stove, and manage to set smoke alarms off

 

has anyone got a domestic oil central heating boiler installed,?

fuel consumption compared to a webasto?

 

 

 

Grace & favour, as you rarely use it , what's the chance of you selling me your webasto then??

 

col

Sorry Col, the webasto's staying put (I'm a firm believer in covering options with system redundancy)(As I've mentioned to my present wife!!!)

 

But with regard to dust.........

However, simple as it may sound, our virtual dust suppression process works extremely well.....

 

We determined the two processes that caused dust were

1// Clearing the ash

2// Loading with new fuel

 

So we came up with two ways of avoiding dust:

Ash

I (had) fabricated a second ash can, and a caddy into which the (full) ash can would fit, and a lid that sits over the whole thing . . . so emptying the ash is now a process that goes:

Open bottom door, remove ash can into caddy - place lid on - put the spare ash can in the stove, close bottom door.

Take full caddy outside and leave it on the bankside to cool.

 

Coal

We open our bags of anthracite (25Kg) outside, and decant the contents into the very cheapest small binliner bags, each hold about 1 / 1.25Kg.

Knot each little bag.

We then keep a supply of these 'pre-packs' in the scuttle near the stove .

To load the stove , - open fire-door, put pre-pack in, close door.

 

Very simple - very clean

Edited December 4, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[koukouvagia]

When I was working out how big a diesel fire I needed, I used the table supplied by Refleks. In your case, as a rough-back-of-an-envelope calculation, you need to heat 50’ x 10’ x 6’ = 3000 cu feet or about 85 cu meters. According to the table a 5KW heater will heat 83 cu.meters of an insulated boat and 50 cu.meters of an uninsulated boat. For a 7KW heater the figures are 117 and 70.

On these figures, I’m not surprised that the OP’s boat is a bit chilly when relying solely on the Webasto.

Edited December 4, 2013 by koukouvagia

[pquinn]

Sorry Col, the webasto's staying put (I'm a firm believer in covering options with system redundancy)(As I've mentioned to my present wife!!!)

 

But with regard to dust.........

However, simple as it may sound, our virtual dust suppression process works extremely well.....

 

We determined the two processes that caused dust were

1// Clearing the ash

2// Loading with new fuel

 

So we came up with two ways of avoiding dust:

Ash

I (had) fabricated a second ash can, and a caddy into which the (full) ash can would fit, and a lid that sits over the whole thing . . . so emptying the ash is now a process that goes:

Open bottom door, remove ash can into caddy - place lid on - put the spare ash can in the stove, close bottom door.

Take full caddy outside and leave it on the bankside to cool.

 

Coal

We open our bags of anthracite (25Kg) outside, and decant the contents into the very cheapest small binliner bags, each hold about 1 / 1.25Kg.

Knot each little bag.

We then keep a supply of these 'pre-packs' in the scuttle near the stove .

To load the stove , - open fire-door, put pre-pack in, close door.

 

Very simple - very clean

thats a good idea.must try it myself.

this is also what i do.

 

eta.i also use an ash carrier.i dont know how people manage without them.

Edited December 4, 2013 by pquinn

[smileypete]

Check the rads are balanced properly otherwise you won't get the expected output from the Webby.

 

Briefly when all rads are full on the temp of the pipe returning from the rad to boiler should be the same on each of them. Easily done with an IR thermometer or a Mk1 hand will get close enough with expericence.

 

5kW will do up to 19-24 ft² area of double rad which is a fair bit, and 5kW of rads should heat the cabin areas alone fine if reasonably insulated and the windows are DG.

 

BUT 5kW isn't sufficient for cabin and wheelhouse year round, to heat a large single glazed wheelhouse to normal temps might need another 5kW when the weather is bitterly cold.

 

So depends if you want to use the wheelhouse as extra living space year round, or just stop using and heating it when the weather is cold.

 

Echo other comments about stove management, spare ash pan, check chimney and baffle plates in particular are clear. Running the stove hot before refueling may warm up the flue and get a better draw. If the fuel is really dusty maybe even consider spraying it with water to keep the dust down.

 

ETA with your doubles, do they have fins between the two layers or not? Ones without fins will give about 200W ft², ones with about 250W ft²

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 4, 2013 by smileypete

[bigcol]

Robo thanks for the link and Pete, I now know I have double rads with double fins.

.

say I didn't have the stove at all and just the webasto I think the main saloon will be warm but heat will be lossed through the bedroom. and in the depths of winter would not keep the boat warm, WE WOULD HAVE TO USE THE STOVE

 

But your right! the wheel house is single glazed, and have the stairs to forward (kitchen saloon and the bedroom),

but also stairs aft from the wheel house to the bathroom which is like a freezer

so yes we have to use the whole boat including the wheel house and of course bathroom.

 

We have got a door separating the main cabin from the wheel house and when shut, does keep in the heat. a lot more

 

but when the wheelhouse and bathroom is sealed of with the door and we want to pee etc its like having a outside loo!!! lol plus when we do shut this backend off the dogs keep whinging and whining wheelhouse is the fridge, then down to the bathroom freezer

 

I do like the idea of making ready coal bags for the stove,

 

Ray ! I haven't really thought about consumption as I didn't think my 5kw used much, but will have a look at the spec

buy you've spent if you have logged up 4500 litres thats £4500! on fuel.

 

saying that we need to be warm, and surely its force economy to run a underpowered heater

I have just looked in the ceiling void, yes its spay foam insulated but only just over a inch,?

 

I have come to the conclusion through this and dba forum, that I couldn't afford the consumption of a domestic oil boiler on the boat

 

2.7 plus litres per hour! how do folks in houses afford to run their heating!!

 

I'm thinking buy the wood and coal, open stove door very slowly, put pre packed bags in and buy my loving wife a new hoover and more dusters for xmas lol

 

Funny how I was all set up to buy a domestic boiler, through dba and this forum I'm now doing a u turn

but will look at a webasto 90, hopefully that will just replace the 5kw heater, and use the same wiring fittings and diesel supply?

 

Col

 

[raymondh]

Hi,

Yes 4500 hours over 5 years burning kerro at an average of 50p litre (just moved area and now 65p litre)

So do the math HMG give me £200 per year for fuel

Ray

[blackrose]

 

Blimy Colin

 

A 10 KW stove? we have a 4kw Bubble stove that's mostly run on the lowest setting, we can heat our water with it too. Our boat is 60f x 10/6 and it's plenty warm enough, 10kw would literally roast us

 

It's not the biggest stove of boat owners on this forum. I can't remember who it is but one forum member has a 20kW stove!

[Hawkmoth]

I replaced a 5Kw Ebersplutter with a 7Kw Hurricane. A simple job only needing room to put the larger heating unit in place. All of the piping remained the same except a bit of extending to reach the input/output points on the Hurricane.

The extra heat output is excellent, and the Hurricane doesn't mind turning on and off as often as needed.

The whole system is controlled by time and temperature, just like a "normal" house, it even has a hot water only valve so that the hot water is controlled even if the heating isn't needed.

Bob

[peterboat]

By boat is 57 x 12 with a double glazed and insulated wheelhouse I have a wisphergen that produce 5kw it heats rads to 70 c it also produces 72 amps at 12v as well. My multifuel stove takes over from the wispergen when I get home from work it does room heat plus heats the rads It is dusty and labour intensive but I have a lot of free wood so I use it. In the bedroom I have a bubble stove It works well and in cold weather or if the boat has been unoccupied for a while I light it it is clean and quick. All of these work in tandem so maybe you just need to have a backboiler on your stove to help your diesel central heating like I have done?

 

Peter

[Alan de Enfield]

Sorry Col, the webasto's staying put (I'm a firm believer in covering options with system redundancy)(As I've mentioned to my present wife!!!)

 

 

 

 

I bet she took that well !!!

Do you have anyone in mind ? - Just asking (not volunteering)

[Redeye]

Hi

 

I have a 57 x 10 ft boat and have a steel stove works a treat 10kw, saloon piping hot windows open etc

but really messy, dust everywhere and using it as our main stay of heating

 

we also have a webasto thermo top 5kw with

1 x 300x 1000 double in the bedroom cool

2 x 300 x 1000 double in the saloon turned off when stove on

1 x 500 700 double in the kitchen nr the wheel house cold

other side of wheel house bathroom freezing1 x 500 x 700 single will be changing to double soon

 

I m now thinking the 5 kw is not powerful enough as we are using the stove as our main heating source

when buying price orientated

 

so thinking of either installing a

1) domestic oil boiler which is a way to go for dutch bargees?

2) or go for the webasto 90 ?

 

any thoughts?

as I would like the diesel heating to be our main source of heating

and the fire stove to be in case

 

all the wife does is dust dust and more dusting

 

Question is

 

has any folks here installed a diesel domestic boiler on their narrow boat, It seems to be most favourable on a Dutch barge?

and any folks had experience of a 5 kw thermotop, and a webasto 90 are they a lot more powerful?

 

many thanks in advance

 

colin

 

I think I said on another thread that we have installed a harworth heating pressure jet boiler in Bison which is 70ft. The boiler is brilliant and runs on a standard domestic Y plan setup for heating and water. It is quiet and heats the boat up really quickly via 4 column radiators. The boat is based at kegworth and you would be welcome to have a look if interested. I have no connection to harworth but they did give excellent service. The whole setup is on 240v but it uses less power than my old Mikuni. 240 v circulating pump from Wilo is also really energy efficient.

 

PM me if you need any further info

 

Andrew

[bigcol]

thanks for your posts Andrew I've Pmed you

 

and Bizzard were are being more careful and slower opening the door does make a big difference simples!

also looking at the stove woodburner hoovers any good?

But been looking at domestic boilers most of the week, and it seems that the consumption of domestic boiler heating fuel is a minimum of 2 litres per hour, pricing for domestic heating oil is 56p per litre,

This is a lot less than being 95p per litre for red diesel for marine boat use

Our boat has 2 x tanks which are 75x65x50 cm which in total for the 2 tanks is 290 litres? I think I worked this out right?

I'm coming to the conclusion that a domestic boiler will be expensive to run, especially on red diesel

 

Thinking I couldn't afford the domestic boilers consumption, I thought of exchanging my 5kw webasto for a 9kw webasto,

but unless someone tells me its a bad idea, I'm thinking of buying a 5kw air heater on top of the 5kw existing thermotop

and running this with outlets into the wheel house bathroom and kitchen.

 

this will mean I would have 3 options

for less money of exchanging existing webasto, I could have another webasto Air heater,ie heating the cold spots directly and instantly, and also if one breaks down I have another. yes I may have the usual reliability issues that go's with these units. but I will have 2 diesel heaters which mounts up to 10kw if used together which don't think will ever happen unless its freezing out there

 

I could then choose having the 1)messy option stove, and 2) the air heating, or air and 3)central heating,

 

For some reason I'm thinking that most folks are thinking I'm nuts, any thoughts

 

Col

Edited December 6, 2013 by bigcol

[raymondh]

Why use red for your heating? the Webbo on our boat has run on Kerro for the last 5 years - no smoke, less smell and a lot cheaper at around 65p litre

Ray

[bigcol]

Ray !

 

you got me thinking again! Never given kerosene a thought

 

Is this what other boaters do? and where can you buy kerosene, is this paraffin?

Am I right, its easy as putting the feed in a Gerry can of kerosene, I be nearly halving the cost of my heating fuel?

 

Is there boat safety rules for kerosene or insurance issues?

I'm going to do a search on the forum

many thanks Ray

 

col

Edited December 6, 2013 by bigcol

[Ex- Member]

Ray !

 

you got me thinking again! Never given kerosene a thought

 

Is this what other boaters do? and where can you buy kerosene, is this paraffin?

Am I right, its easy as putting the feed in a Gerry can of kerosene, I be nearly halving the cost of my heating fuel?

 

Is there boat safety rules for kerosene

I'm going to do a search on the forum

many thanks Ray

 

col

 

We ran our bubble stove last year on Kerosene, or heating oil?. It's thinner than diesel 28 sec but burns much cleaner. When we originally added it there was a lot of Red Deisel already in the tank, but as we continued to add we had to slightly adjust the flame as the mix in the tank became neater. When the tank ran out we completely filled with Heating oil. It was 10p a litre cheaper than fully rebated Red at 72ppl when we last bought it locally in Feb 2012, delivered to our warehouse bunded tank in Dorset it was just 62ppl We quite often drained some of that off for our boat stove tanks, it's a lot of faffing around though.

 

I agree with Raymondh it does burn well and cleaner and the flame on the BBle stove was the best ever. I'm tempted to go to the local garage again and fill up 10l containers. It's only a mile away as well. Having Red delivered to the boat is great, but heating oil does burn much better in our Bubble and would be cheaper.