Captain Beaky Posted January 20, 2019 Report Share Posted January 20, 2019 Hi folks, been a while. I've read a few threads but need some help. Wife and me very interested in a used 2003 50' NB cruiser. But builder's plate says max. 4 persons underway. Is that to be taken as absolute limit as more on board would invalidate insurance? I was told by the boat broker it isn't important, but I think it may be ! And it is such a nice boat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I wouldn't worry too much - there is an easier stability test to pass when building a boat if you only allow as many people on board as there are berths. You can take 12 people ("souls") on board without you needing a special licence or MCA certification. If you are really concerned, you could pay for the extra stability test, which basically involves 12 people stood on one gunwale of your boat and seeing if it rolls over! As always with insurance, speak to your preferred insurance company and ask what they think - some will not care under 12 people, and some will have a cow at 5 people. Ask before paying them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I really would not worry, you could fill the boat with people and it would still be safe, its just possible that if anything bad happened you could get trouble but most unlikely. My plate says 5 people but then I self certified the thing so I just picked a number, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 6 hours ago, Captain Beaky said: Wife and me very interested in a used 2003 50' NB cruiser. But builder's plate says max. 4 persons underway. That will be the RCD 'numbers used' after stability calculations and testing. I would suggest that yes, you can 'overload it' but in the event of an accident then in all likely hood your insurance would be invalidated as contravening the builders recommendations. 1 hour ago, Bee said: I really would not worry, you could fill the boat with people and it would still be safe, its just possible that if anything bad happened you could get trouble but most unlikely. My plate says 5 people but then I self certified the thing so I just picked a number, That is a rather cavalier attitude - (assuming you built under the RCD auspices) - you mean you didn't actually do any stability calculations and testing - you have issued a fraudulent RCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boater Sam Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 We had over 30 on a 70 footer for a party, nearly lost all freeboard on the bow gunwales! Didn't cruise though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Beaky Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Thanks for replies so far. So now I have a reasonable element of doubt the insurance may or may not be okay ! I agree with Alan de Enfield on this. I'll phone around this am and see what a couple of mainstream ( sorry) insurers say. Although the risk is low, I would hate to discover an event is uninsured, especially if it involved family or friends on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Many builders just use the number of berths to say how many people can be carried. What should be done is having say six average weight people stand on one gunwale and the boat should not list more than seven degrees. Mine says six, as there were six people available at the time the stability test was done, but I am sure it could take more. Six seems quite common, so is probably a compromise figure that builders know a typical narrowboat will pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, dor said: Many builders just use the number of berths to say how many people can be carried. What should be done is having say six average weight people stand on one gunwale and the boat should not list more than seven degrees. Mine says six, as there were six people available at the time the stability test was done, but I am sure it could take more. Six seems quite common, so is probably a compromise figure that builders know a typical narrowboat will pass. I'm not sure that is quite correct. My boat will 'sleep6', but is rated at : 8 for category A waters 10 for Category B waters 12 for Category C waters , & 14 for Category D waters. Edited January 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 10 hours ago, Captain Beaky said: I've read a few threads but need some help. Wife and me very interested in a used 2003 50' NB cruiser. But builder's plate says max. 4 persons underway. I'm genuinely surprised that a 50 foot narrow boat is only marked up for 4 people. Seems quite daft to me. Fortunately I have never owned a narrow boat new enough to fall foul of this daft idea. One of our boats used to carry 48 people (plus crew) without managing to roll over! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, dor said: Many builders just use the number of berths to say how many people can be carried. What should be done is having say six average weight people stand on one gunwale and the boat should not list more than seven degrees. Mine says six, as there were six people available at the time the stability test was done, but I am sure it could take more. Six seems quite common, so is probably a compromise figure that builders know a typical narrowboat will pass. It will also be the number used to calculate ventilation for your BSS cert but that is only an advisory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardang Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Captain Beaky said: Thanks for replies so far. So now I have a reasonable element of doubt the insurance may or may not be okay ! I agree with Alan de Enfield on this. I'll phone around this am and see what a couple of mainstream ( sorry) insurers say. Although the risk is low, I would hate to discover an event is uninsured, especially if it involved family or friends on board. I would think that if the plate is disregarded and an accident ensues when under way - especially one which incurs serious injury or loss of life - the MCA in particular will be involved, - and your insurers would also take it into account when considering a claim. Especially, if some or most of the people on board are sitting on the roof, as can be seen frequently around the cut, with the reduction in stability that this brings about. The plate is there for a reason - safety of you and the people on board, and remember that it is your responsibility to maintain safety on your boat. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Not sure where or how the figures are arrived at, 21ft dayboat on the Broads only allow 10 souls aboard, however that number was decided upon is anybody's guess. A pal of mine owns the Southern Comfort trip boat based at Horning and carry 50 plus, it's twin hulled with a large upper deck, looks like a Mississippi paddle steamer. 60ft long with a beam of about 15/18 feet. He does a load test by "borrowing" some 1 ton bags of sand from a mate at Jewsons and hoists them to the upper deck with a teleporter or some such, he has to to this for the MCA Phil Edited January 21, 2019 by Phil Ambrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Beaky Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Well folks I have spoken to three marine insurers for their opinion on this and none have said it is an issue when asked directly. One insurer was incredulous that a 50' NB would be plated as 4 max. And so not likely to be a problem if used within the restrictions of the written policy. So they all agree with the boatyard. I am going to commission a survey anyway so will be gathering more info that way. Thanks for all your opinions so far. Quite interesting eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, Captain Beaky said: Well folks I have spoken to three marine insurers for their opinion on this and none have said it is an issue when asked directly. One insurer was incredulous that a 50' NB would be plated as 4 max. And so not likely to be a problem if used within the restrictions of the written policy. So they all agree with the boatyard. I am going to commission a survey anyway so will be gathering more info that way. Thanks for all your opinions so far. Quite interesting eh? I'm sure that in 99.999% of the time overloading it with 12, even 20, people will have no dramatic effect. Knowing how 'insurers wriggle' I would suggest that they may claim in the event of an accident you are not covered if the boat is 'overloaded' (It could be that you hit the lock gates - you couldn't stop because of the additional weight / momentum) If you decide to go for that (or any other similar) boat that you get a letter / email from your insurers confirming that carrying 8-10-12 (however many) that you will still be covered even tho' the RCD plate states 4 people.. So you are not just in the position of saying "well when I phoned Doris said it would be OK" Just suggestions - its your boat, your life and your money 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Beaky Posted January 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Yes well for my part we have now decided not to proceed with this boat although this is not just the builders plate issue more to do with the heating system. There were other issues that mean we are now back to hunting mode. Your opinions have been very helpful though and something to clarify when boat hunting. Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Phil Ambrose said: Not sure where or how the figures are arrived at, 21ft dayboat on the Broads only allow 10 souls aboard, however that number was decided upon is anybody's guess. A pal of mine owns the Southern Comfort trip boat based at Horning and carry 50 plus, it's twin hulled with a large upper deck, looks like a Mississippi paddle steamer. 60ft long with a beam of about 15/18 feet. He does a load test by "borrowing" some 1 ton bags of sand from a mate at Jewsons and hoists them to the upper deck with a teleporter or some such, he has to to this for the MCA Phil The figure comes from what the builder says when he completes the RCD declaration. You would probably find than an identical hull with 6 berths would say 6. When I called in at Fox's once we were kidnapped into assisting certifying there day boat with all of us being weighed and then entering the boat to sit on one side while the angle of heal was measured using an Ipad on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBiscuits Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, alan_fincher said: One of our boats used to carry 48 people (plus crew) without managing to roll over! If they all stood on one gunwale it would have been a Turtle, not a Flamingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceinSanity Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Captain Beaky said: Yes well for my part we have now decided not to proceed with this boat although this is not just the builders plate issue more to do with the heating system. There were other issues that mean we are now back to hunting mode. Your opinions have been very helpful though and something to clarify when boat hunting. Thanks everyone. Welcome back and good luck with the hunt! Sanity Again is plated for eight because we wanted to be able to sleep all three generations of the family on her, including an Aerobed on the saloon floor. Main thing affected was the tilt test as the ventilation was already well above the required minima. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 hours ago, BruceinSanity said: Welcome back and good luck with the hunt! Sanity Again is plated for eight because we wanted to be able to sleep all three generations of the family on her, including an Aerobed on the saloon floor. Main thing affected was the tilt test as the ventilation was already well above the required minima. How did you get plated for 8, I'm confused by the fact that some boats plated for only 4 while others plated for what seem to be arbitrary number. Thinking about when boats were carrying they most certainly carried a lot more than say your 8 souls at maybe 650kg Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said: Thinking about when boats were carrying they most certainly carried a lot more than say your 8 souls at maybe 650kg But that was in the days when folks took responsibility for their actions and were not led by the nose with Elfin-Safety I wonder how many of the 'self-builds' have done stability test in accordance with the RCD ? I wonder how many 'self-builds' have just looked at a comparable boats and said "ours is the same size, so we'll quote the same". Edited January 21, 2019 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 18 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said: How did you get plated for 8, I'm confused by the fact that some boats plated for only 4 while others plated for what seem to be arbitrary number. Thinking about when boats were carrying they most certainly carried a lot more than say your 8 souls at maybe 650kg Phil If you are spending that money on a new boat then you just tell the builder you want it built to accommodate 8 or even 10 if that's what you want. There is probably no difference to one plated for 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Unlikely to capsize it they're packed in like sardines and can't move about. Just a 8 or 12 is not enough. I've had 21 bods on my 35' boat and stable as anything. Standing room only. I reckon the 4 people wording just meant berths. Edited January 21, 2019 by bizzard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Thinking about it I can't help thinking that its mostly a load of cobblers, my favourite dinghy was 12ft x 6ft and often had 4 or more people in her , plenty of free board (2ft) so the same number as the OPs prospective boat. In fact the dinghy was given to me by an eel Fisher who used to come back with 400kg or 500kg of eels when eels still ran up t he river, and add his weight to that. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bizzard Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 I had a wooden 30' ex P&O ships lifeboat. Branded on beam was, ''To save 86 lives''. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Williams Posted January 21, 2019 Report Share Posted January 21, 2019 Thank goodness that I was boating before all this Nonsense came in. 25 tons of coal on a 70 footer. But we could only carry 12 passengers. (who is counting anyway ? ). My pontoon conversion was a bit 'tippy' until I put some ballast (paving slabs) in the bilges. Insurance problems - just don't go round hitting other boats. I nearly got hit by a speedboat - the lady called out "Sorry - the silly old bugger has just bought it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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