The cost of fitting out a 65' x 12' Widebeam shell

[Dr Bob]

36 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

That's not a fish. Its a .......er.......?

[OldGoat]

I left this thread yesterday evening and at that time it seemed to be very constructive. Overnight it's descended - somewhat- under the control of that well known, but anonymous poster Fred Drift....

Back on track -

The strength of 'our' canal system is that there is an huge cruising range BUT you are limited to 7' (well 6'10") by 60ft long.

 A 12ft boat works - sizewise reasonably well on the Thames, Medway (?). The northern rivers - of which I have no real knowledge have their own challenges.

My own biased opinion is for genuine cruising up and down you're stuck with the Thames - and even with it's long usable length it could get quite boring.

You say no fitted cupboards - so what about long clothing. You'll waste a lot of otherwise unusable space by not having some fitted cupboards. See what Blackrose has done with some Ikea (I think) cupboards - he's posted some impressive photos.

 

I'm going to get attacked on the above -hey ho.....  

[dmr]

......and the Thames is not really suitable for continuous cruising as most moorings are 24 hour only and its not really viable or pleasurable to cruise everyday of the year. There is also the issue of periods of high flow and extensive winter stoppages. The K&A and the lower grand union are viable but both are congested in parts and cruising widebeams passing many moored widebeams is not good.

 

I also suspect that Northern cruising has its limitations. The Bridgewater could be good if you have a Bridgewater licence, plus the run into Liverpool. The Leeds and Liverpool past Wigan has a lot of locks. The Rochdale has even more locks and is no longer really suitable for widebeams. I dunno about the other canals with little 57 foot locks, the Calder and Hebble looks rather nice ?

 

................Dave

[WotEver]

Indeed. The phrase “We want to cruise as continually as is reasonably possible in our 12 ft beam boat” is really an oxymoron. 

[OldGoat]

15 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Indeed. The phrase “We want to cruise as continually as is reasonably possible in our 12 ft beam boat” is really an oxymoron. 

I've seen the occasional one on the Thames and they really handle like a pig 10ft are a bit better and look better as well

19 minutes ago, dmr said:

......and the Thames is not really suitable for continuous cruising as most moorings are 24 hour only and its not really viable or pleasurable to cruise everyday of the year. There is also the issue of periods of high flow and extensive winter stoppages. The K&A and the lower grand union are viable but both are congested in parts and cruising widebeams passing many moored widebeams is not good.

 

I also suspect that Northern cruising has its limitations. The Bridgewater could be good if you have a Bridgewater licence, plus the run into Liverpool. The Leeds and Liverpool past Wigan has a lot of locks. The Rochdale has even more locks and is no longer really suitable for widebeams. I dunno about the other canals with little 57 foot locks, the Calder and Hebble looks rather nice ?

 

................Dave

I agree there aren't many short term official moorings. However there are plenty of places that folks do moor without having to pay - but you have to seek them out. The advantage of the River is that you're always near a town for shopping for essentials.

 

 

[Clodi]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Is that the same club as the Narrowboat in grotty primer?

I'm a proud member of that club ?

I have been watching the progress of a couple of livaboards CCruiserswith 2 young kids who are slowly getting on with fitting out their 60' widebeam sailaway and I have to say that despite being 'skint' they're doing a super job using a combination of new and re-cycled products. Even with the kids on board they manage OK as they have all that extra space to work with. So despite the all negative reply's and examples the answer to 'the cost', has to be simply, (once you pay licences, moorings, insurance, fuel etc) as much as you want to, or can afford to pay.

Fittings on a wide beam can actually be cheaper than on a narrowboat as you can use 'normal' size beds and furniture but if using any fitted kitchen cabinets make sure you seal any MDF before fitting.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Clodi said:

I'm a proud member of that club ?

I have been watching the progress of a couple of livaboards CCruiserswith 2 young kids who are slowly getting on with fitting out their 60' widebeam sailaway and I have to say that despite being 'skint' they're doing a super job using a combination of new and re-cycled products. Even with the kids on board they manage OK as they have all that extra space to work with. So despite the all negative reply's and examples the answer to 'the cost', has to be simply, (once you pay licences, moorings, insurance, fuel etc) as much as you want to, or can afford to pay.

Fittings on a wide beam can actually be cheaper than on a narrowboat as you can use 'normal' size beds and furniture but if using any fitted kitchen cabinets make sure you seal any MDF before fitting.

True enough. When I did a full fit of a new shell some stuff such as shower doors etc were small and expensive. The wide beam we bought we had a complete new kitchen and bathroom fitted and we bought everything including shower doors off the shelf in b and q and Wickes.

[David Mack]

45 minutes ago, dmr said:

The Leeds and Liverpool past Wigan has a lot of locks.

 

But east of Wigan they are too short for the OP's 65ft long boat. 

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

The strength of 'our' canal system is that there is an huge cruising range BUT you are limited to 7' (well 6'10") by 60ft long. 

 

Not really. Having boated for over 20 years in a boat 71 ft 6 in x 7 ft 0.5 in, the only place where our progress was physically prevented by a narrow lock was Stret Lock on the Chesterfield, which has since been widened.  That said, we have not been through Hurleston in recent years, but did pass through the narrow lock at Napton a couple of months ago.

 

We can't do the northern 57ft/60ft/62 ft canals, but other than those the only length restrictions are on the fens at Lode End Lock and Brandon Lock on the Little Ouse.

[OldGoat]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

 

Not really. Having boated for over 20 years in a boat 71 ft 6 in x 7 ft 0.5 in, the only place where our progress was physically prevented by a narrow lock was Stret Lock on the Chesterfield, which has since been widened.  That said, we have not been through Hurleston in recent years, but did pass through the narrow lock at Napton a couple of months ago.

 

We can't do the northern 57ft/60ft/62 ft canals, but other than those the only length restrictions are on the fens at Lode End Lock and Brandon Lock on the Little Ouse.

I was trying to make it simple for newcomers to this site and boating generally. It's easier for starters to say 60ft x 6' 10" wide will get you almost everywhere through connected waterways, rather than state xx length yy width and then list a whole lot of ifs and buts. With a fat boat or even not so fat boat the cruising range is very much restricted.

[David Mack]

51 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I was trying to make it simple for newcomers to this site and boating generally. It's easier for starters to say 60ft x 6' 10" wide will get you almost everywhere through connected waterways, rather than state xx length yy width and then list a whole lot of ifs and buts. With a fat boat or even not so fat boat the cruising range is very much restricted.

 

You have missed my main point.  You don't have to have a 6 ft 10 in boat. 7 ft, or a touch over, will still go (almost) anywhere than 6 ft 10 in can.

 

If you perpetuate the myth that the narrow canals are only fit for 6 ft 10 in boats, then locks that have squeezed in to less than 7 ft will be allowed to remain, and soon all the 6ft 10 in boats will be getting stuck everywhere!

[Graham Davis]

I'm going to go back to basics here.
To the OP, have you actually cruised the canals on any boat, wide, medium or narrow?
If not can I suggest that before you do anything you hire atleast a narrow boat for a 2 week holiday, preferably in October or November, when the weather has started to get cold and wet. That way you will see how easy or difficult it is to live in the space, and start to see some of the "problems" that winter can bring to life to a boater.

[Dee Kay]

14 hours ago, LadyG said:

Oh, not sure what a cat swinger is.  I don't want to know, all I can say is, there are proper boats, and there are canal boats. There are maisonettes, and there are widebeams.

I don't think you understand canals enough to buy a canal boat........................yet

"Not enough room to  swing a cat..."

Ever heard of that well known English saying?

Clearly not.

You seem a rather humourless and judgemental person...with nothing better to do other than snipe unpleasantly from the sidelines.

Perhaps you have issues?

Do you really think this is the place to work through them?

[blackrose]

16 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It takes a certain degree of thick-skinned-ness to cruise around in a 12ft Widebeam, especially when in places the canal is only 25ft wide. Imagine meeting yourself coming the other way, or trying to pass yourself moored up. Bear in mind the edges are usually rather shallow. 

 

CCers with 12ft wide wide beams usually give up in the end and express themselves in a marina instead...!

I disagree. I've cruised in my 12ft widebeam and as you know I'm rather sensitive!  

 

I'm not quite sure what shallow edges have to do with anything? My boat draws 2ft 2in maximum.

 

I do agree that CCing in a 12ft widebeam isn't ideal though.

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That’s a helpful benchmark from someone who has actually done it. I think you did all or almost all the work yourself didn’t you Mike? The op is planning to employ tradesmen so triple that figure at least! 

 

And yours is 10ft wide iirc not 12ft. What are your views on ccing a 12ft x65ft boat Mike? I believe you have always had a mooring. 

No mine is 12ft wide x 57ft. It came sprayed and lined but I did the rest myself.

 

CCing a 12ft widebeam these days is probably a bad idea - Back in 2005 when I got mine it was still a possibility, but probably not a good idea now. Yes I've always had a mooring but I've done a fair bit of canal cruising too - GU up to Marsworth a few times, a couple of trips around the Paddington arm from Bulls Bridge to Limehouse, K&A from Reading to Bristol, G&S from Sharpness to Gloucester, all without incident or annoyance on my part or anyone else's. I prefer rivers anyway - not really because of the size of my boat, but just because I prefer flowing water to stagnant smelly ditches. Rivers are just more dynamic changing waterways and I tend to view canals as the interconnecting waterways.

Edited August 24, 2018 by blackrose

[dmr]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

 

But east of Wigan they are too short for the OP's 65ft long boat. 

I hadn't really registered the proposed length....so the OP wants a boat that is too wide for all the midland canals and too long for many of the Northern Canals!!!!!, that is going to be VERY limiting for continuous cruising. 60+ foot widebeams really are static/marina boats for just an occasional stressful run up the K&A....till they meet all the moored boats just outside Bath.

 

...............Dave

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, dmr said:

I hadn't really registered the proposed length....so the OP wants a boat that is too wide for all the midland canals and too long for many of the Northern Canals!!!!!, that is going to be VERY limiting for continuous cruising. 60+ foot widebeams really are static/marina boats for just an occasional stressful run up the K&A....till they meet all the moored boats just outside Bath.

 

...............Dave

A twelve foot wide beam has a large cruising range if kept and used on the right system. For instance a mooring in sawley marina or in Goole means a cruising range of everything mileage wise in between the two and across to Leeds And Wakefield etc etc. There is no problem with a 65 x 12 boat, the problem is the choice of the small waterways in the ops location. 

[Dee Kay]

23 hours ago, Athy said:

Without actually counting, I reckon we must be up to about half a million so far. I hope Dee is not losing interest in the project!

I was hoping for gold taps on the Jacuzzi, but I guess I'll have to pass on those with all the other expenses outlined here.

Half a million is getting very close to the top end of what I'm prepared to pay for a simple fit out...

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, Dee Kay said:

I was hoping for gold taps on the Jacuzzi, but I guess I'll have to pass on those with all the other expenses outlined here.

Half a million is getting very close to the top end of what I'm prepared to pay for a simple fit out...

They're SO last year anyway.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Athy

[Dee Kay]

16 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I disagree. I've cruised in my 12ft widebeam and as you know I'm rather sensitive!  

 

I'm not quite sure what shallow edges have to do with anything? My boat draws 2ft 2in maximum.

 

I do agree that CCing in a 12ft widebeam isn't ideal though.

No mine is 12ft wide x 57ft. It came sprayed and lined but I did the rest myself.

 

CCing a 12ft widebeam these days is probably a bad idea - Back in 2005 when I got mine it was still a possibility, but probably not a good idea now. Yes I've always had a mooring but I've done a fair bit of canal cruising too - GU up to Marsworth a few times, a couple of trips around the Paddington arm from Bulls Bridge to Limehouse, K&A from Reading to Bristol, G&S from Sharpness to Gloucester, all without incident or annoyance on my part or anyone else's. I prefer rivers anyway - not really because of the size of my boat, but just because I prefer flowing water to stagnant smelly ditches. Rivers are just more dynamic changing waterways and I tend to view canals as the interconnecting waterways.

"Flowing waters" versus "stagnant smelly ditches" ....rather poetically put. Canals = interconnecting waterways....hmmm. Food for thought. Thank you.

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Dee Kay said:

I was hoping for gold taps on the Jacuzzi, but I guess I'll have to pass on those with all the other expenses outlined here.

Half a million is getting very close to the top end of what I'm prepared to pay for a simple fit out...

Don't worry, if you move somewhere nice which after your location at present is easily done then that size boat will be fine.

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

A twelve foot wide beam has a large cruising range if kept and used on the right system. For instance a mooring in sawley marina or in Goole means a cruising range of everything mileage wise in between the two and across to Leeds And Wakefield etc etc. There is no problem with a 65 x 12 boat, the problem is the choice of the small waterways in the ops location. 

I would find it very very frustrating to have a widebeam "up North" and not be able to do the Leeds and Liverpool over the summit, the Huddersfield Broad, Calder and Hebble or the wonderful Rochdale. We are currently stuck on the Rochdale and planning to over-winter up here (though I am a bit concerned that it rains here every day). The official dimensions do suggest that a 70 by 12 would fit, but it would be truly horrible boating!

 

...............Dave

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, Dee Kay said:

"Not enough room to  swing a cat..."

Ever heard of that well known English saying?

Clearly not.

You seem a rather humourless and judgemental person...with nothing better to do other than snipe unpleasantly from the sidelines.

Perhaps you have issues?

Do you really think this is the place to work through them?

I know about swinging cats, not sure if you know about the other kind of swingers

I don't get involved in personal insults, life is too short.

I was giving you best advice,.

I'll spell it out, you don't need to take it, I won't give reasons.

Do not buy a boat as a liveaboard because it looks like a cheap alternative to living in a house, or an adventure.

Edited August 24, 2018 by LadyG

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

We are currently stuck on the Rochdale and planning to over-winter up here (though I am a bit concerned that it rains here every day). The official dimensions do suggest that a 70 by 12 would fit, but it would be truly horrible boating!

 

...............Dave

 

71'6" x 7' is OK on the Rochdale - even drawing 3 ft. 12ft would be tight passing other boats in some places. Although originally 14ft, a number of locks have come in enough that 12 probably is the maximum (and narrow boats sharing locks have to separate out at a few locks, which upsets the water levels).

 

Anything over 7 ft beam requires the floating towpath under the M62 to be moved. And anything over 60 ft long needs to use the lower pair of bottom gates at Tuel Lane.  Always fun, as they are rarely used, so always open and never wetted. They leak like the proverbial sieve when pressed into service.   I have wondered whether if I turned up in a boat less than about 15 ft long whether they would let me use the lock between the two sets of lower gates - the lock would be almost the same in 3 dimensions - length, width, depth! 

[Dee Kay]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

 

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Dee Kay

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Dee Kay said:

 

Yeah well, just buy what you want, fit it out as you want, be happy, live long and prosper, let us know how you get on. but don't bother asking for any more advice.

Edited August 24, 2018 by LadyG