Anchor advice please

[dmr]

1 minute ago, howardang said:

I think your involvement with anchoring, albeit offshore, will have at least given you some thing to draw upon if ever you had to anchor a canal boat, which is more than most on here can claim-myself included. In my mind it highlights the issue of expecting a forum like this to be totally made up of experts, which it isn't. It is a group of boaters with widely differing viewpoints and expeience and although some      

are happy to offer opinions on every subject under the sun, in the end we have to make up our own minds which ones to take with the proverbial pinch of salt.

 

Howard

Its interesting that the Thames and other rivers require us to carry an anchor but do not require us to have the expertise or knowledge to use it. I contrast this with our recent Manchester Ship Canal certificate of sea worthiness examination where I just suspected that it was us rather than the boat that was getting examined.

 

.................Dave

[Steve Manc]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. As stated with the advise given and my research it's up to me to make the decision. 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

So can the OP clarify please? 

 

Which river do you want an anchor for? And are you planning to continue cruising in flood conditions or moor up and sit it out, should they catch you unawares?

Looks like we are not going to get an answer.

[Steve Manc]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Looks like we are not going to get an answer.

're post 19 and 28.

 

Please read my original question post 9.

 

I mentioned the river I want the anchor for, River Trent.

 

At no time have I mentioned I would cruise in a flooded river!

 

One person suggested in a post said if you are buying an anchor purchase one that complies with the River Thames which I thought was a good idea.

 

Thanks to all 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

're post 19 and 28.

 

Please read my original question post 9.

 

I mentioned the river I want the anchor for, River Trent.

 

At no time have I mentioned I would cruise in a flooded river!

 

One person suggested in a post said if you are buying an anchor purchase one that complies with the River Thames which I thought was a good idea.

 

Thanks to all 

 

 

Thank you, I thought I had correctly understood your plans.

Get the biggest and best anchor you can - the River Trent can be a dangerous river even in non-flood conditions (it was a lovely calm Summers day with normal-flow when we rescued the boat at Cromwell Lock)

 

Good luck & safe-boating.

[Steve Manc]

I never did buy my anchor last season.  Now on my journey to buy one and it's interesting there are many comments of boaters opinions and experiences on the internet. I have looked at companies offering training for new boaters and note purchasing an anchor  in safety equipment is not listed. 

 

I looked at the tragic loss of the soldiers. This report quotes them crossing on a high tide and the worst night of the year at night.    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-34347337

 

This link is the Danford Standard http://www.danforthanchors.com/standard.html

 

This is RYA opinion on anchor types: https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/cruising-tips/hints-tips/Pages/anchoring-the-gear.aspx

 

Port of London recommend: http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb2of2013-dangerous-notdeployinganchorswhenbrokendown1.pdf

 

Boater exam https://www.boaterexam.com/navigationrules/anchoring-tips.aspx?wvideo=negx7zi1nj

 

There are videos on youtube, google 'fortress anchors', with boaters of sea going vessels promoting Fortress anchors. One saying not good where there are rocks or grass. Could this also mean where there are reeds in the river? Another video said at one point the stock length had been reduced or removed this made it less efficient. 

 

For a narrow boat user, from reading boaters comments:

1,  do not go out on a river when it is high flow and in danger of doing so. 

2, Have a correct / heavy anchor for the boat length or purchase a fortress if you want a lighter one which you can alter for mud. Also look to have one with a long stock length. See Danford Standard link for further info. 

3, Have correct length of chain and rope, RYA recommend 4 x depth in chain or 6 x depth in chain and rope.  Port of London recommend: Correct anchor + 5 meters of chain + 25 meters of rope  see link above.  Boaters exam recommend 7 to 10 x maximum depth see link above 

 

Are there any rivers that narrow boats can cruise in the UK that are deeper than the Thames when the tide is in? 

[LadyG]

The term "cable" is often used for the stuff between the anchor and the boat.

Where are you going to boat.

How big is your boat, how "heavy is your boat"

Do you have a crew capable of handing anchors and chain and rope [aka warp].

 

Do you have any experience at all, if so that is relevant ?

 

I intend to buy one anchor for a 50 foot narrowboat which has to have the best "first time holding and stopping" ie this is for an emergency.

My choice is a 11.5Kg Mantus anchor, and 6 metres 10mm calibrated chain, plus 33 metres of 18mm anchorplait. The anchor will be fastened [with monel] to the chain by a green pin [tested] 11mm shackle.

The anchor point at the bow may have to be beefed up to hold the force of a boat of 15 tonnes travelling at 6 knots, although that is unlikely, it is possible. I do not envisage any sort of windlass, so I have to be able to launch it myself.

Reasons.

Mantus: it's a good modern anchor and it can be dismantled and stored when not required. It has excellent first time holding.

Calibrated Chain: 10m of 10mm chain is possibly more than I can handle, so I may end up with 6m as that to me is the minimum chain required to serve it's  purpose. I know calibrated chain is tested, I don't know about other random chains.

Warp: I have 33m of 18mm anchorplait, anchorplait has strength and some elasticity.

Anchor shackle: this is the strongest [tested type] shackle which will fit both chain and anchor.

Monel, better than a cable tie , it is to prevent loosening of the shackle pin.

 

There is always some sort of compromise between practicality and budget.

 

You are not normally mooring your vessel for an overnight stay, or a picnic. You using the anchor as an emergency, you will not be dropping it in the deepest part of the river, so I don't think that is relevant.

While RYA and PLA recommendations are valid, for your circumstances, local knowledge is probably going to be more useful.

 

I would not buy a Danforth, it's not up to the job.

I would not buy a Fortress, it's too expensive.

The river bed will vary, you have only one anchor for an emergency, do not worry about sand/mud/weed.

Edited March 6, 2019 by LadyG
budget

[Steve Manc]

22 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The term "cable" is often used for the stuff between the anchor and the boat.

Where are you going to boat.

How big is your boat, how "heavy is your boat"

Do you have a crew capable of handing anchors and chain and rope [aka warp].

 

Do you have any experience at all, if so that is relevant ?

 

I intend to buy one anchor for a 50 foot narrowboat which has to have the best "first time holding and stopping" ie this is for an emergency.

My choice is a 11.5Kg Mantus anchor, and 6 metres 10mm calibrated chain, plus 33 metres of 18mm anchorplait. The anchor will be fastened [with monel] to the chain by a green pin [tested] 11mm shackle.

The anchor point at the bow may have to be beefed up to hold the force of a boat of 15 tonnes travelling at 6 knots, although that is unlikely, it is possible. I do not envisage any sort of windlass, so I have to be able to launch it myself.

Reasons.

Mantus: it's a good modern anchor and it can be dismantled and stored when not required. It has excellent first time holding.

Calibrated Chain: 10m of 10mm chain is possibly more than I can handle, so I may end up with 6m as that to me is the minimum chain required to serve it's  purpose. I know calibrated chain is tested, I don't know about other random chains.

Warp: I have 33m of 18mm anchorplait, anchorplait has strength and some elasticity.

Anchor shackle: this is the strongest [tested type] shackle which will fit both chain and anchor.

Monel, better than a cable tie , it is to prevent loosening of the shackle pin.

 

There is always some sort of compromise between practicality and budget.

 

You are not normally mooring your vessel for an overnight stay, or a picnic. You using the anchor as an emergency, you will not be dropping it in the deepest part of the river, so I don't think that is relevant.

While RYA and PLA recommendations are valid, for your circumstances, local knowledge is probably going to be more useful.

 

I would not buy a Danforth, it's not up to the job.

I would not buy a Fortress, it's too expensive.

The river bed will vary, you have only one anchor for an emergency, do not worry about sand/mud/weed.

 

Interesting video on Mantus, I am wondering did the other 5 anchors not have the best chance to set because they were not shackled singular ? 

Just checked the suppler https://seagearsupplies.co.uk/mantus-anchors/  for a price

For your 50 foot boat with a weight of 15 tonn their recommendation is 30kg weight on the lunch .  

 

Re: Where are you going to boat, purchased 2017 I am looking to buy for the UK C&RT network and London

Re: How big is your boat, how "heavy is your boat" 50 foot

Re: Do you have a crew capable of handing anchors and chain and rope [aka warp]. Me and my wife, experience in launching in an emergency nil

Re: Do you have any experience at all, if so that is relevant ?  2 years as an owner and 3 years as a hirer, we spent 3.5 months on it last summer hoping to do 4 to 5 months this year. Only rivers so far River Trent and Soar whilst doing Leicester ring and Weaver  Navigation none of which were in high flow. Booked in for the Ribble Link this year.

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Steve Manc said:

Interesting video on Mantus, I am wondering did the other 5 anchors not have the best chance to set because they were not shackled singular ? 

Not a like for like comparison. I suspect that doing it that way set up the others to fail. Each one on a separate chain from the spreader bar would have been better, but if it showed up their anchor it would never have appeared on Youtube!

 

Jen

[pete.i]

You can have all the advice in the world but if the damn thing is too heavy for you to heave over the side then it isn't a lot of use. Go for the heaviest you can manage and in my opinion a Danforth type is the best, but that is only my opinion for anchor type.

[LadyG]

I used to have a mooring in the Menai Straights, at the pub! That is a mooring. The chain [maybe 12 or 14mm, and the ground tackle were renewed every year, it would have held The Royal Yacht Britannia.  I think she did use it once. When the tide was running [10-14knots] it was impossible to pick up as the mooring bouy  was two foot under water. That is extreme

You will never encounter that on a river.

 

Danforth is useless in emergency conditions. It's something from the 18th century, do not buy a Danforth for an emergency anchor.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Danforth is useless in emergency conditions.

A Danforth is a common sight on narrowboats because :

1) They are Cheap.

2) They fold up to make stowage easier.

3) The boat owner doesn't know that they don't work very well.

4) Its never going to be needed so it doesn't matter.

 

 

Repeat :

 

A Danforth is useless in emergency conditions.

[LadyG]

I know the manufacturer will recommend a bigger anchor. 

I realise that. The manufacturer is considering storm and even hurricane conditions at sea. That is not what you are going to encounter, not what the manufacturer envisages or tests.  

Anyone who intends to circumnavigate the world needs ground tackle according to the manufacturer's recommendation, and more, AND the knowledge to deploy the anchor AND a windlass. Anchoring for severe storm/hurricane conditions is absolutely not the same as your requirement for an anchor to stop you going over a weir.

I've anchored a hundred times, I've dragged once, but we were, never ever in any danger. , It did surprise a lot of guys in Tarbert , Loch Fyne when we arrived in full harness, lifejackets, all the kit, at 06.00 , flat calm, beautiful day.

Katabatic winds, Lochranza. Casual anchoring, weed., we lost our dinghy oars.

Aircraft bite fools.

Edited March 6, 2019 by LadyG

[Iain_S]

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Not a like for like comparison. I suspect that doing it that way set up the others to fail. Each one on a separate chain from the spreader bar would have been better, but if it showed up their anchor it would never have appeared on Youtube!

 

Jen

I agree. Would the Mantus have set if it had a chain between it and the sand? Also, the angle between anchor, ground and chain is unrealistic. Few boats are already on the bottom when the anchor is deployed ?

[LadyG]

Voltaire had it right.

[Steve Manc]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A Danforth is a common sight on narrowboats because :

1) They are Cheap.

2) They fold up to make stowage easier.

3) The boat owner doesn't know that they don't work very well.

4) Its never going to be needed so it doesn't matter.

 

 

Repeat :

 

A Danforth is useless in emergency conditions.

Hi Alan

 

From your post I can see you have strong views re Danforth anchor. Can I ask what information you have to show it is useless?

 

Thanks

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

Hi Alan

 

From your post I can see you have strong views re Danforth anchor. Can I ask what information you have to show it is useless?

 

Thanks

If you want a Danforth, buy a Danforth.

Edited March 6, 2019 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

Hi Alan

 

From your post I can see you have strong views re Danforth anchor. Can I ask what information you have to show it is useless?

 

Thanks

Actual use on a boat.

 

It is fine for a 'lunch-break' anchor but for trying to stop 15 + tonnes of boat going over a weir you need an anchor that will set 1st time (you won't get a 2nd chance) and will take the shock-load without bending or breaking.

 

My current boats have 

1) A 15kg Bruce (this will be up-graded to a Fortress in the near future)

2) A 30kg Mantus.

 

The Mantus is a latest generation anchor and has Very high holding power - we did have one problem, in that it actually snapped the winch off the front of the boat as it held so well.

 

Do not rely on using the T-Stud on the front of a NB - they WILL just snap off.

Use a large eye-bolt thru the hull with a 12" diameter backing plate to spread the load.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

There are a number of tests undertaken by Boating magazines, Danforth tend to be the 'bottom of the bunch' for performance - here are a couple of examples :

 

 

[Steve Manc]

Hi Alan

 

Re: Actual use on a boat. 

It is fine for a 'lunch-break' anchor but for trying to stop 15 + tonnes of boat going over a weir you need an anchor that will set 1st time (you won't get a 2nd chance) and will take the shock-load without bending or breaking.

My current boats have 

1) A 15kg Bruce (this will be up-graded to a Fortress in the near future)

2) A 30kg Mantus.

The Mantus is a latest generation anchor and has Very high holding power - we did have one problem, in that it actually snapped the winch off the front of the boat as it held so well.

Do not rely on using the T-Stud on the front of a NB - they WILL just snap off.

Use a large eye-bolt thru the hull with a 12" diameter backing plate to spread the load.

 

Can I ask why you needed to use your Mantus anchor, was it in emergency?

Thanks for the heads up re securing the anchor to the boat

With you having two boats I take it you hire narrow boats out? 

 

Re the reports you posted.

 

In the first report there is no mention of a Mantus. I note the Danforth has lowest points. At no point does it say its useless in an emergency.

 

In the second report 

setting

5 points: Mantus

4 points: Rocna

3 points: Spade, Manson suprene

2 points: Bruce, Fortress, Manson boss, Delta

1 point: Danforth, CQR 

 

I understand the discussion was about setting the anchor. You say you have a Bruce on one of your boats and will up grade to a Fortress.  These two anchors only scored 2 in setting! What is your logic in this purchase? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

 With you having two boats I take it you hire narrow boats out? 

No - a lot of people have 2 boats.

 

30 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

In the first report there is no mention of a Mantus. I note the Danforth has lowest points

The Mantus is identical to the Manson (I believe there have been some legal patent action between them)

 

30 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

At no point does it say its useless in an emergency.

It wouldn't.

Anchor test are normally conducted 'at sea' (the likely hood of a NB need in to anchor is pretty remote)

If a boat takes two or three tries to get it to set, or it drifts 200 yards before it sets its not that important

I have rescued a boat with engine failure drifting towards Cromwell Weir - after several attempts his anchor actually set and held the boat less than 100 yards from the weir.

It was a Danforth 'type'.

An emergency brake needs to set 1st time.

30 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

You say you have a Bruce on one of your boats and will up grade to a Fortress. 

One of the benefits of the Fortress is that it is Aluminium and you can use an anchor (less than) half the weight of an equivalent, so the testers tend to use (say) an 8kg Fortress as comparison to a 30kg 'other type'.

 

If you use a weight-for weight Fortress the setting and holding is much superior.

 

Another benefit of the Fortress is its strength, and disassembly (folds up flat)

 

Much of my Cruising is on the Sea, and, as I have twin engines and confidence in them, I am happy to use a Bruce or Fortress for its holding ability.

 

 

 

Look at the attached table :

 

The holding power of a 16.5kg Britanny (similar to a Danforth) in Hard Sand is 745*kgs

The holding power of a 10.5Kg Fortress in Hard sand is 3281*kgs

 

The anchor needs to 'set' and be able to hold the boat.

 

* The weighs quoted are NOT the weight of boat they will hold it is a simple measurement of 'pull out force'. The weight a boat will apply to an anchor is much less than the weight of the boat. But a 'shock load' to stop 15 tonnes of boat will be a high figure

.

 

 

Yachting Monthly -Anchor Test Nov09.pdf

 

Conclusions
Our findings show that, contrary to appearances, an anchor is a very
complex piece of kit with a balance so delicate that the smallest change
in shape or weight distribution can render it completely ineffective.
Frankly, we had no idea that a slightly bent fluke (less than a centimetre
out of true in the case of the Britany) can be such a major handicap. Leaving
aside the folded flukes of the Fortress, bent when they were subjected to an

unreasonable amount of force, and the broken stock of the aluminium Spade,
the lightly deformed Britany and Brake anchors never performed properly
after being slightly bent. We’ve shown that aluminium anchors are

very nearly as effective as their steel counterparts – as long as they’re
oversized. Aluminium is more likely to bend out of shape. You’d be unwise
to choose one as your only anchor.

The most important conclusion from this test is the answer to the
question we asked at the outset: yes, some of the new-generation anchors
on the market perform demonstrably better than their illustrious forebears,
with double – even triple – the holding power.Bearing in mind the
inherent weakness of this sort of test (the seabed is never going to be of
a uniform composition or density) it would be presumptuous for us to
declare that one anchor is the best. The Spade, Kobra 2, Manson and
Bugel are all excellent anchors that can be relied on to give better holding in
sand than any traditional design. But before you unshackle that trusty old
hook and heave it over the gunwale, remember that you are better off having
at least two different types of anchor on board.

 

If this article has shaken your faith in your old anchor and persuaded you to buy a
new one, keep the old one as a kedge. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

40 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

At no point does it say its useless in an emergency.

No reason why it should. That is simply the strongly held opinion shared by two posters. 

[TheBiscuits]

20 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No reason why it should. That is simply the strongly held opinion shared by two posters. 

Both of whom have extensive experience in deploying anchors, and getting them to set.

 

I think you are much better going with an appropriately sized Danforth than the 6lb RIB anchor I recently saw on a 60ft narrowboat preparing to cross the Ribble Link!

[Sea Dog]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are a number of tests undertaken by Boating magazines, Danforth tend to be the 'bottom of the bunch' for performance - here are a couple of examples :

 

 

 

If you take out the things that don't matter much, definitely 6 (the rode not snagging since there's no swing), probably 3 (since dragging is less likely under a steady pull of a river flow than when bobbing about in a seaway and turning in the wind/tide) and arguably 2 (the need to bury deep, since again there's no wave action or wind/tide turning going on), the good old fisherman's (which stows flat) does rather well! 

[Steve Manc]

Alan

Thanks for the informed reply.

 

All

Thanks for your input