Inverter question

[Dibbo and Jules]

Hi all, our  v old sterling inverter is dying a death and we think it's time to change. There's a load of different versions out there, but if we look at getting a 2.5 or 3kw pure sine wave we can a fortune for a Sterling or less for one from eBay ( China). We have a charger and don't believe in putting all your eggs in one basket, so will still keep the two items.  The question is are the known brands like Sterling etc worth the extra price? 

 We live aboard but use the invert generally only when we are away from home mooring and don't mind walking the 45 foot to turn it on.. 

[mrsmelly]

You will get conflicting replies but in my opinion as a long term liveaboard with several boats and differing setups cheap stuff such as Stirling is best avoided. Mastervolt are deffo the tops followed by Victron amongst others. I have owned used them all for many years so am only speaking from first hand experience 

[Nickhlx]

Agree with the above...Sterling were thought to be OK products for 12 volt stuff but their mains kit was though to be a bit doubtful - this was from a few years back, so things may have changed.  Whatever, their stuff is not considered "top notch"...

 

We were at this point approx 10 years ago but last minute cash crisis, having ordered the slightly more expensive Mastervolt 3kW pure sine inverter, meant we couldn't afford it,  so went with the Victron

12/3000/100, and it has been fine ever since, so would buy again..

 

I would definitely not use cheap stuff, especially if leaving it unattended, e.g. at a marina mooring, and on 24/7... 

 

The other point I would make is batteries - they make life so much easier if they work well and for a long time - don't discharge more than about 50% and re-charge them ASAP after discharge.  We went for Trojans which are heavy duty, flooded  lead acid, and are still going strong after just over 9 years, although I am fanatical about looking after them...

 

Having good reliable power at all times rates high on our list of "must haves" - its not difficult to achieve but does require good products and a good understanding of them..

 

Hope that helps avoid bad decisions..

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

I would go with Mastervolt if you can afford it. One thing to consider is how much of the time the inverter will be on. There can be a big difference in the idling power consumption between cheapo and posh inverters. Our 2500va Mastervolt Combi uses about 0.75A idling, so we just leave it on 24/7. Cheaper inverters can use several amps doing nothing, and so you will want to switch them off when not actually in use. So as I said, it depends on your usage pattern to some extent.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

There's a load of different versions out there, but if we look at getting a 2.5 or 3kw pure sine wave we can a fortune for a Sterling or less for one from eBay ( China).

If you think getting a Sterling is 'costing a fortune' wait until you look at the price of quality inverters.

 

Sterling are not quality inverters, the Chinese stuff on ebay even worse.

 

Do a search on You-tube for 'Chinese inverters catching fire'.

 

Here is one for starters

 

Your money, your boat, your choice.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Bantam_dave21]

Now cringing at the thought of what I had believed to be reasonable quality Stirling inverted charger sat inches from me....in my defence I didn't choose it, it was fitted in the boat when I boat it....

 

eeeeek

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Bantam_dave21 said:

Now cringing at the thought of what I had believed to be reasonable quality Stirling inverted charger sat inches from me....in my defence I didn't choose it, it was fitted in the boat when I boat it....

 

eeeeek

No, it’s not the Sterling ones that tend to self-combust, it’s the even cheaper Chinese ones. 

[Bantam_dave21]

Still....the opinion of Stirling doesn't appear to be great...

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Bantam_dave21 said:

Still....the opinion of Stirling doesn't appear to be great...

Well, no it isn’t, not when compared to Mastervolt or Victron. 

[rusty69]

My inverter made in Taiwan. Many years of happy inverting. Fire extinguisher always nearby. Not used in 14 yrs. 

 

When i grow up i will buy 

 

Mastervolt 

Xantrex

Victron

 

All 3 inverters running in phaSe

[nicknorman]

Most electronic stuff is made in Taiwan/China/Korea/Thailand etc. It is not where it was assembled that is relevant, it is where it was designed, and how much money was spent building it. If you buy cheap, you are buying something locally designed and/or built with cheap components. It probably won’t go on fire. But then again, it just might.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It probably won’t go on fire. But then again, it just might.

I don't trust my Taiwanese offering enough to leave it unattended,although to be fair, its been fine for years. 

 

But one day, it just might.......... 

[Dibbo and Jules]

Thanks for comments. I must admit there's a whole world of inverters out there. The Chinese cheaper versions, I bought one for our first boat, long since sold on, but it still works fine, but is too small to be useful. Of the the thousands sold how many burst into flames? (Beko fridge syndrome, loads had them but only about 2 caught fire, no big deal unless your one of the two?) . We only use the inverter when away from home mooring as we have a shore supply and again never when we are not about, but it is a worrying factor. I listed Sterling as they are the commonest electrical suppliers on boats, but agree prob not the best. I have no problem saving for a Mastervolt but would be gutted it's the same chinese electricery  inside. As a thought. We have a washing machine,tv and a small microwave on board, as well as a genny, so if a bit wash is needed then we would use the genny if away from the moorings. Would a 2kw do us?  

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

I have no problem saving for a Mastervolt but would be gutted it's the same chinese electricery  inside.

It isn’t

[roland elsdon]

We have a 2 Stirlings. Never seen flames. On the other hand 3 months after we sold one boat the heart interface inverter charger caught fire while inverting...

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

Thanks for comments. I must admit there's a whole world of inverters out there. The Chinese cheaper versions, I bought one for our first boat, long since sold on, but it still works fine, but is too small to be useful. Of the the thousands sold how many burst into flames? (Beko fridge syndrome, loads had them but only about 2 caught fire, no big deal unless your one of the two?) . We only use the inverter when away from home mooring as we have a shore supply and again never when we are not about, but it is a worrying factor. I listed Sterling as they are the commonest electrical suppliers on boats, but agree prob not the best. I have no problem saving for a Mastervolt but would be gutted it's the same chinese electricery  inside. As a thought. We have a washing machine,tv and a small microwave on board, as well as a genny, so if a bit wash is needed then we would use the genny if away from the moorings. Would a 2kw do us?  

If you are going to use the gennie for the washing machine and the microwave then your inverter need not be anywhere near 2kva especialy if your fridge etc is 12 volts. What would verter be used for precisely?

[Sea Dog]

5 hours ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

I have no problem saving for a Mastervolt but would be gutted it's the same chinese electricery  inside. 

Then get the Victron - they're made in India!  Actually, both Mastervolt and Victron are Dutch companies and, wherever their equipment is made, as far as my experience as a user of both manufacturers products goes, they apply high engineering standards and appropriate quality control to their products.  Mastervolt are usually given the nod as best with Victron pretty close behind but a fair bit cheaper.  My Mastervolt Combi had a (fail safe) fault at 8 years old, and I replaced it with separate Victron Charger and Inverter units.

 

My other view from my personal experience is that Mastervolt are much better at manuals than Victron, but Victron have way better customer service.  Whilst my Combi was still serviceable, I emailed a technical question to Mastervolt technical support and got short shrift - I got no answer to my (relatively simple) query and was simply told to take my Inverter/Charger to a UK agent, which was more than a bit impractical.  When I was having difficulty pairing my Victron smart charger Bluetooth monitoring with my phone, my question was fully resolved by the next morning, their tech support guy borrowed a similar Sony phone from a member of staff so he could try it out himself and  work out what I was missing - it turned out to be a pop-up hidden behind the active page which had me foxed!

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Then get the Victron - they're made in India!  Actually, both Mastervolt and Victron are Dutch companies and, wherever their equipment is made, as far as my experience as a user of both manufacturers products goes, they apply high engineering standards and appropriate quality control to their products.  Mastervolt are usually given the nod as best with Victron pretty close behind but a fair bit cheaper.  My Mastervolt Combi had a (fail safe) fault at 8 years old, and I replaced it with separate Victron Charger and Inverter units.

 

My other view from my personal experience is that Mastervolt are much better at manuals than Victron, but Victron have way better customer service.  Whilst my Combi was still serviceable, I emailed a technical question to Mastervolt technical support and got short shrift - I got no answer to my (relatively simple) query and was simply told to take my Inverter/Charger to a UK agent, which was more than a bit impractical.  When I was having difficulty pairing my Victron smart charger Bluetooth monitoring with my phone, my question was fully resolved by the next morning, their tech support guy borrowed a similar Sony phone from a member of staff so he could try it out himself and  work out what I was missing - it turned out to be a pop-up hidden behind the active page which had me foxed!

 

I second this. 

 

The standard of technical support is critically important but you'll only come to realise this when a problem arises (which it will, eventually). Similarly the quality of the documentation is equally important. Neither is a function of where the diodes are soldered onto the PCBS. 

 

It's a good policy to pick you device according to the readability of the manual and quality of the after-sales support service, in my experience. 

[Dibbo and Jules]

Being honest, we are quite simple souls for liveaboards, if we are away "at sea" then generally the inverter gets used to run the tv, laptop ( which is generally charged whilst boating anyway) and charging the phones. The oven is fan assisted so it's used then but this is hardly a massive draw on power. We have used the current inverter (3kw) for a hot wash occasionally but as a rule we do this via the gennie. Tbh , I don't know why it was fitted out with such a large inverter, when it's got a 6kw  gennie on board. .

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

Being honest, we are quite simple souls for liveaboards, if we are away "at sea" then generally the inverter gets used to run the tv, laptop ( which is generally charged whilst boating anyway) and charging the phones. The oven is fan assisted so it's used then but this is hardly a massive draw on power. We have used the current inverter (3kw) for a hot wash occasionally but as a rule we do this via the gennie. Tbh , I don't know why it was fitted out with such a large inverter, when it's got a 6kw  gennie on board. .

I'd go with 2kW (and did when my larger 2.5kw Mastervolt failed) as you yourself proposed.  This will allow you to use your microwave, coffee machine, hair dryer, or whatever (all of which draw over 1kw) quite comfortably without flashing the generator. You have the genny to power the washer.  Personally, I don't like heavy loads on my Inverter when the alternator isn't running to be easy on my batteries.  Others quite happily do so, but a 1 kilowatt 230V appliance is drawing close on 100 amps from your 12V batteries. 

[Dibbo and Jules]

On 12/06/2018 at 22:37, mrsmelly said:

If you are going to use the gennie for the washing machine and the microwave then your inverter need not be anywhere near 2kva especialy if your fridge etc is 12 volts. What would verter be used for precisely?

 

[Dibbo and Jules]

Ok folks, following a lot of in depth research ( talking to folk down the pub) we've invested in a Mastervolt combi 2200 kw with 100amp charger. It's seems to be the bees knees so looking forward to getting it sorted. It cost a small fortune , but hey hi as everyone has said , it has an important role , so should be right. I thought it might be an easy swap but it seems not. They suggest it's not in the same room , never mind above the batteries, well that's not likely to happen is it? Also it seems to have two outputs for AC power. A 50 amp and a 25 amp. This i can see  but do I now have to separate the washer ,Tumblr dryer ( yes we have one)  and immersion heater from the rest of the boats equipment? I also wonder about the input from the genny? Does this stay as a separate thing? I have a good knowledge of electrics and mechanical things but the Good Lady worries about letting me loose on nearly 2 grands worth of sparky box. Are they easy or should I get a "man" in?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

34 minutes ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

we've invested in a Mastervolt combi 2200 kw

Are you sure ?

That's 2.2 million watts (the size of a small power station)

 

I'm guessing that it is actually 2200 watts which is approximately 10 amps at 220 volts so I have no idea where the 50 amp 220v output , AND a 25 amp 220 volt output come from.

 

From the information you have given, I'd suggest that your 'Good Lady' is correct and you should get 'a man in' who understands what you have got.

 

Edit to add :

 

Not quite as you described it.

 

Looking at the manual :

 

Specifications transfer system
AC input 1	50 A (25 A switched, to short break output)
AC output 1	25 A (short break output)
AC output 2	50 A (power output)
AC input fuse	yes, resettable

Edited July 8, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[nicknorman]

28 minutes ago, Dibbo and Jules said:

Ok folks, following a lot of in depth research ( talking to folk down the pub) we've invested in a Mastervolt combi 2200 kw with 100amp charger. It's seems to be the bees knees so looking forward to getting it sorted. It cost a small fortune , but hey hi as everyone has said , it has an important role , so should be right. I thought it might be an easy swap but it seems not. They suggest it's not in the same room , never mind above the batteries, well that's not likely to happen is it? Also it seems to have two outputs for AC power. A 50 amp and a 25 amp. This i can see  but do I now have to separate the washer ,Tumblr dryer ( yes we have one)  and immersion heater from the rest of the boats equipment? I also wonder about the input from the genny? Does this stay as a separate thing? I have a good knowledge of electrics and mechanical things but the Good Lady worries about letting me loose on nearly 2 grands worth of sparky box. Are they easy or should I get a "man" in?

 

The point with the two outputs is that one is just the shore or genny power passed through, so is only “live” when shore or genny is providing the power. It is dead when on inverter only. This can be used to power things that you don’t want the inverter to be able to power. An immersion heater might be one such thing. However in out boat, we have nothing connected to this output because we want everything to be able to work from the inverter, including the immersion heater. We have a Travelpower which can supply such things. If you don’t have a big genny, large alternator nor are normally on shore, you might want to use this output to ensure big power consumers can’t be supplied by the inverter.

 

As to the location, by “compartment” it doesn’t necessarily mean the same room, more like the same cupboard or box. It is just common sense, batteries can give off corrosive and explosive fumes and that doesn’t mix well with power electronics in close proximity.

[Dibbo and Jules]

8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you sure ?

That's 2.2 million watts (the size of a small power station)

 

I'm guessing that it is actually 2200 watts which is approximately 10 amps at 220 volts so I have no idea where the 50 amp 220v output , AND a 25 amp 220 volt output come from.

 

From the information you have given, I'd suggest that your 'Good Lady' is correct and you should get 'a man in' who understands what you have got.

 

Edit to add :

 

Not quite as you described it.

 

Looking at the manual :

 

Specifications transfer system
AC input 1	50 A (25 A switched, to short break output)
AC output 1	25 A (short break output)
AC output 2	50 A (power output)
AC input fuse	yes, resettable

My mistake, we all make them, I think you know I've not got a small power station.