Passing Sailing Boats on the Severn

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Had to cut a path through the little sailing boats on the Severn today. Once we had cleared them their safety boat advised that we should have moved further over to the edge, why they didn't come and tell us this before we got in the middle of them.

Thats pretty much the same course I took when going through.

[Dr Bob]

Yea, you would have thought that if their safety boat had a preference which path you were going to take through the fleet, they would have come and told you first.

[howardang]

13 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yea, you would have thought that if their safety boat had a preference which path you were going to take through the fleet, they would have come and told you first.

Unless there is a regulatory requirement to obey the club safety boat, (and I don't think this is the case), it is the skipper's responsibility to chose his course and avoid any chance of collision. The safety boat does not necessarily know the limitations of an approaching vessel.Taking part in racing does not give them any right to ignore the rules. A safety boat can request but not insist.

 

Howard

 

 

 

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, howardang said:

Unless there is a regulatory requirement to obey the club safety boat, (and I don't think this is the case), it is the skipper's responsibility to chose his course and avoid any chance of collision. The safety boat does not necessarily know the limitations of an approaching vessel.Taking part in racing does not give them any right to ignore the rules. A safety boat can request but not insist.

 

Howard

 

 

 

Howard, you are absolutely correct. The problem here is who is 'stand on vessel'. From Colregs, sail is the stand on vessel, ie NB should be giving way but typically in a dinghy race, the racing rules of the club will say give way to NB's....but we are not even sure they are racing here. It is a given that the NB's will have limited ability to manouver but they are not showing the correct 'shapes' so they should be treated by colregs in the normal pecking order. If there is a safety boat out, then even if not a race, the club will have their own rules, hence keep clear of NB's. In this case then, the safety boat should head towards the approaching boats and ask them nicely to follow a course through the fleet.

If I was at the helm I would just pick a course and move slowly down it and hope the dinghies would be sensible enough to keep clear, only responding to a potential collision by following the guidelines laid down in colregs. Maybe we should all get a couple of balls and a diamond to say we are restricted in our ability to manouver.

[howardang]

21 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Howard, you are absolutely correct. The problem here is who is 'stand on vessel'. From Colregs, sail is the stand on vessel, ie NB should be giving way but typically in a dinghy race, the racing rules of the club will say give way to NB's....but we are not even sure they are racing here. It is a given that the NB's will have limited ability to manouver but they are not showing the correct 'shapes' so they should be treated by colregs in the normal pecking order. If there is a safety boat out, then even if not a race, the club will have their own rules, hence keep clear of NB's. In this case then, the safety boat should head towards the approaching boats and ask them nicely to follow a course through the fleet.

If I was at the helm I would just pick a course and move slowly down it and hope the dinghies would be sensible enough to keep clear, only responding to a potential collision by following the guidelines laid down in colregs. Maybe we should all get a couple of balls and a diamond to say we are restricted in our ability to manouver.

Sorry to correct you, but unless there are exceptional circumstances (and this does not apply here assuming that the PD vessel has a functioning engine and is steering normally ) there is no justification to hoist two black balls, and there is certainly no justification uner the rules for a diamond. (May I respectfully suggest you refresh your memory on the wording of the rules and what the diamond signifies). In that regard, it is not quite correct to say that the power driven vessel is always the 'stand on vessel' under all circumstances either

Howard

[Scholar Gypsy]

Slightly off topic, but I bought a folding black ball at the Boat Show this year. Still looking for an opportunity to deploy it (ie while at anchor!).

[Dr Bob]

21 minutes ago, howardang said:

Sorry to correct you, but unless there are exceptional circumstances (and this does not apply here assuming that the PD vessel has a functioning engine and is steering normally ) there is no justification to hoist two black balls, and there is certainly no justification uner the rules for a diamond. (May I respectfully suggest you refresh your memory on the wording of the rules and what the diamond signifies). In that regard, it is not quite correct to say that the power driven vessel is always the 'stand on vessel' under all circumstances either

Howard

My comment was 2 black balls + diamond in middle = restricted in ability to manouver. That doesn't fit the descriptions given in the examples of colregs but at least the sailing school would know the intention. The dinghies will be the stand on vessels but in practice how does that work with the situation in hand? The NB can not be the stand on vessel. Now, read my last post again. There is no clear answer. The fact is, we are restricted in our ability to manouver if going downstream, or constrained by draught or vessel not under command (ish) and cannot react like a dinghy. Bottom line, we must take steps to avoid a collision which means going slowly keeping a steady course and be prepared to alter course as per colregs but hoping the sailing club has its rules which specify the dangers to its members to keep clear of vessels that can't respond quickly.

[bizzard]

Here lies the body of William Grey, who insisted on his right of way.

[howardang]

21 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

My comment was 2 black balls + diamond in middle = restricted in ability to manouver. That doesn't fit the descriptions given in the examples of colregs but at least the sailing school would know the intention. The dinghies will be the stand on vessels but in practice how does that work with the situation in hand? The NB can not be the stand on vessel. Now, read my last post again. There is no clear answer. The fact is, we are restricted in our ability to manouver if going downstream, or constrained by draught or vessel not under command (ish) and cannot react like a dinghy. Bottom line, we must take steps to avoid a collision which means going slowly keeping a steady course and be prepared to alter course as per colregs but hoping the sailing club has its rules which specify the dangers to its members to keep clear of vessels that can't respond quickly.

Thank you for your lesson, but I respectfully suggest that you look at Rule 3 f &g which defines the difference between a vessel not under command - 2 balls, - and a vessel restricted in her ability to manouvre which is "through the nature of her work" , a circumstance which does not apply in your scenario, and NUC does not apply because the boat is still capable of manouvering satisfactorily as has been mentioned several times in this thread already. The clue there is the word "exceptional". This is just a close quarters situation with reasonably congested traffic and the normal rules apply. However,  we are obviously speaking theoretically because in reality I suspect that the sailing dinghies wouln't have an inkling what any signals mean, and maybe not all NB drivers either!

 

Howard

 

[Phil Ambrose]

On 24/04/2018 at 14:14, ditchcrawler said:

I wonder how many Narrowboats carry Blue Boards?

And how many know what a blue board is and it's purpose 

Phil 

[Rob-M]

6 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

And how many know what a blue board is and it's purpose 

Phil 

A blue board is for chopping raw fish.

[Phil Ambrose]

55 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

A blue board is for chopping raw fish.

Spoken like a true chef. LOL

Phil 

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, howardang said:

Thank you for your lesson, but I respectfully suggest that you look at Rule 3 f &g which defines the difference between a vessel not under command - 2 balls, - and a vessel restricted in her ability to manouvre which is "through the nature of her work" , a circumstance which does not apply in your scenario, and NUC does not apply because the boat is still capable of manouvering satisfactorily as has been mentioned several times in this thread already. The clue there is the word "exceptional". This is just a close quarters situation with reasonably congested traffic and the normal rules apply. However,  we are obviously speaking theoretically because in reality I suspect that the sailing dinghies wouln't have an inkling what any signals mean, and maybe not all NB drivers either!

 

Howard

 

Howard, if you read my post you will see that I said that the balls don't fit the descriptions in colregs. Of course you are right. I have said that already. I clearly said the NB cannot be stand on vessel. Perhaps you should read my last post again. 

Lighten up!

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

And how many know what a blue board is and it's purpose 

Phil 

For telling lapped cars to get out the way of those about to overtake??

[howardang]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

Howard, if you read my post you will see that I said that the balls don't fit the descriptions in colregs. Of course you are right. I have said that already. I clearly said the NB cannot be stand on vessel. Perhaps you should read my last post again. 

Lighten up!

Thank you, Doctor Bob, for your concern,  and it is nice of you to think I need to lighten up, but I can assure you that it's not necessary! I am perfectly content and happy with my lot in life. I don't intend , however, to continue with trying to get you to actually read the Collision regulations properly, however, because i know that they do take a little concentration to differentiate between individual interpretations of what they say and the reality. They are, of course, academic on this forum and i fully understand this because, with few exceptions, the CRT Bye-laws apply and that is more relevant to this canal orientated group.

Happy boating

Howard

[Dr Bob]

7 minutes ago, howardang said:

I don't intend , however, to continue with trying to get you to actually read the Collision regulations properly, however, because i know that they do take a little concentration to differentiate between individual interpretations of what they say and the reality. They are, of course, academic on this forum and i fully understand this because, with few exceptions, the CRT Bye-laws apply and that is more relevant to this canal orientated group.

Erm?

I have spent many many an hour reading the Colregs to understand them and do understand them. They are not just academic here. They are the basis for the rules of the road. Canal orientated but this thread has all been about collision avoidance on rivers ....some of which are out of CRT's control.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, howardang said:

They are, of course, academic on this forum and i fully understand this because, with few exceptions, the CRT Bye-laws apply and that is more relevant to this canal orientated group.

Narrowboats would not comply with the definition of 'seagoing' but GRP cruiser style boats might. Fat-Boats could 'go either way', Dutch barge types would be considered 'sea going'

If a narrowbeam GRP crusier is considered as a seagoing boat and it can navigate the canal / river, then that canal / river would come under the jurisdiction of the Colregs unless subject to alternative 'local rules'.

 

International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea

7.1 The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations
1996 (SI 1996/75) implement the Convention on International Regulations for Preventing
Collisions at Sea2 – usually known as the “COLREGS”. These regulations apply to vessels on
waters that are navigable by seagoing vessels, which include most Category D inland waters,
and some Category C. In practice, most such areas are subject to local rules which modify the
COLREGS in the jurisdiction of the relevant navigation or Statutory Harbour Authority.
However, if you are operating in a Category C or D area where no Navigation or Harbour
authority rules seem to be in place, then the international rules may apply. MSN 1781, as
amended, provides further information and advice.

 

The 1965 C&RT Bye-Law (section 19:3) relating to the subject (NB and sailing dinghy) is :

When two pleasure boats one of which is a sailing vessel are
proceeding in such directions as to involve risk of collision, the
pleasure boat not being a sailing vessel shall keep out of the way
of the sailing vessel.

 

Therefore the NB shall 'give way'.

Case closed

[Iain_S]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 1 ) Narrowboats would not comply with the definition of 'seagoing' but GRP cruiser style boats might. Fat-Boats could 'go either way', Dutch barge types would be considered 'sea going'

If a narrowbeam GRP crusier is considered as a seagoing boat and it can navigate the canal / river, then that canal / river would come under the jurisdiction of the Colregs unless subject to alternative 'local rules'.

 

International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea

7.1 The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations
1996 (SI 1996/75) implement the Convention on International Regulations for Preventing
Collisions at Sea2 – usually known as the “COLREGS”. These regulations apply to vessels on
waters that are navigable by seagoing vessels, which include most Category D inland waters,
and some Category C. In practice, most such areas are subject to local rules which modify the
COLREGS in the jurisdiction of the relevant navigation or Statutory Harbour Authority.
However, if you are operating in a Category C or D area where no Navigation or Harbour
authority rules seem to be in place, then the international rules may apply. MSN 1781, as
amended, provides further information and advice.

 

 2 ) The 1965 C&RT Bye-Law (section 19:3) relating to the subject (NB and sailing dinghy) is :

When two pleasure boats one of which is a sailing vessel are
proceeding in such directions as to involve risk of collision, the
pleasure boat not being a sailing vessel shall keep out of the way
of the sailing vessel.

 

Therefore the NB shall 'give way'.

Case closed

1) I would suggest that it is the water that decides whether Colregs apply or not, and not the vessel.

2) Agreed. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

1) I would suggest that it is the water that decides whether Colregs apply or not, and not the vessel.

2) Agreed. 

It is to a certain extent defined by the 'waters', in that they must be usable by sea-going vessels, so to identify which waters it apples to you must identify if the vessels that can use it are 'sea-going'.

These regulations apply to vessels on waters that are navigable by seagoing vessels, which include most Category D inland waters,.............

The canals are category D waters, but I doubt if a boat capable of navigating a 30" deep muddy ditch with 7 foot wide locks would be classed as 'sea-worthy' or that boats that are sea-going would be able to navigate said canal, which would (to me) imply that the waters would not be subject to Colregs.

[Iain_S]

But there are boats which are capable of navigating both. For example, a Drascombe Coaster has a beam of 6'7", draught about 1' (centre board up) to 4' (centre board down) Able to traverse muddy ditches, and a very capable sea boat. Failing a local regulation, Colregs would apply anywhere one of these can go, and that connects to the sea, which would include the entire canal network, apart from detached sections.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

But there are boats which are capable of navigating both. For example, a Drascombe Coaster has a beam of 6'7", draught about 1' (centre board up) to 4' (centre board down) Able to traverse muddy ditches, and a very capable sea boat. Failing a local regulation, Colregs would apply anywhere one of these can go, and that connects to the sea, which would include the entire canal network, apart from detached sections.

Good example - I bow to your suggestion.

Colregs DO apply to the canal system (as I have suggested in previous discussions).

It is good fun to debate subjects and sometimes 'stand' on the side that you don't normally take. The school debating society has a lot to answer for.

[PaulG]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Good example - I bow to your suggestion.

Colregs DO apply to the canal system (as I have suggested in previous discussions).

It is good fun to debate subjects and sometimes 'stand' on the side that you don't normally take. The school debating society has a lot to answer for.

However, the Lower Avon Navigation Trust by-laws *used* to define the river as a narrow channel, and specifically required small sailing craft to keep clear of power driven vessels.

Whether this is still the case since the amalgamation of the two Trusts is difficult to know as the link to the by laws on the ANT website doesn't work.

Edited April 30, 2018 by PaulG
punctuation

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, PaulG said:

However, the Lower Avon Navigation Trust by-laws *used* to define the river as a narrow channel, and specifically required small sailing craft to keep clear of power driven vessels.

Very typical of most sailing club rules.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, PaulG said:

However, the Lower Avon Navigation Trust by-laws *used* to define the river as a narrow channel, andspecifically required small sailing craft to keep clear of power driven vessels.

Whether this is still the case since the amalgamation of the two Trusts is difficult to know as the link to the by laws on the ANT website doesn't work.

On Inland waterways local 'laws / rules / regulations' will override the Colregs, so irrespective  of the amalgamation the local byelaws will take precedence.

I guess the question then is Does C&RT (BW) Bye Laws override The Avon Trust Bye Laws.

That'll be one for @NigelMoore

 

 

[David Mack]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I guess the question then is Does C&RT (BW) Bye Laws override The Avon Trust Bye Laws.

That'll be one for @NigelMoore

Why would one override the other? CRT Bye Laws apply on CRT waterways, ANT Bye Laws on the Avon.