Compatible Oil to API CC 15/40 Spec

[Tony Brooks]

As I have sad before the sudden appearance of loads of "semi-synthetic" oil labels  soon after fully synthetic ones became available at a price looks more like marketing hype than fact to me. The additive pack for any oil could be termed synthetic and as all oils have additives in them calling them semi-synthetic is not a lie.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

There have been countless threads on this in the past which explain why you should not use an oil with a "higher" SAE rating than a manufacturer recommends.

I would say beyond anything else avoiding bore glazing is a key issue.

It wasn't even obvious to me that the Shell oillisted was actually a mineral oil - is it, or might it contain synthetics?

Shell Rimula RT4X is mineral oil .

[alan_fincher]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Shell Rimula RT4X is mineral oil .

Thank you.

I coiuldn't see that stated in the link posted, even if I went to the technical data sheet.

To me  it makes graet play of dispersant additives and high performance heavy use engines in plant and the like.

To me that seems at variance with the low power marinised engines used in boat, seldom worked hard and in danger of suffering from too much time in idle or near idle.

Apart from it exceeding the older API-CC or API-CD spects quoted by Engines Pplus, it doesn't sound the most suitable of oils to me.

Probably not that critical, but with closer matches freely available why not stick with what the mariniser recommends.

[BruceinSanity]

I'm particularly struck by Beta's shift from API CC to CF. They always used to blame Kubota for the insistence on CC but haven't explained why CF is now OK, other than availability. Has the base engine spec changed? I suspect not since they cheerfully sold me 10 litres of CF for my 2010 engine this Crick.

I do wonder how much difference SAE 10W vs 15W or SAE 40 vs 50 really makes in our temperate climate. I can see that it matters in Scandinavia, Canada or the Tropics, but since we regard anything below -5° or above 30° C as extreme...

[alan_fincher]

8 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

I do wonder how much difference SAE 10W vs 15W or SAE 40 vs 50 really makes in our temperate climate. I can see that it matters in Scandinavia, Canada or the Tropics, but since we regard anything below -5° or above 30° C as extreme...

Having run the same engines on occasions on each of

SAE 30 monograde
10W/40

20W/50

I can confirm choice of all certainly makes a difference to readings on the oil pressure gauge, both when starting up cold and once fully hot.

(True both on a BMC 1800 and a Lister HA).

As to which is actually best for each engine type, that's a different debate of course, but they do result in different numbers, (unsurprisingly, I would say).

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, MartynG said:

Why is a higher grade not acceptable?

In addition to the bore-glazing point, modern engines have full flow oil filters, so all of the oil passes through the filter and any metallic particles in the oil get caught. But older engines may have partial flow filters or no oil filter at all. These older engines rely on the metallic particles falling to the bottom of the sump, to be (mostly) removed when the oil is changed. Modern high grade oils have detergent additives which tend to keep the metallic particles in suspension, which is fine if they get filtered out, but not so clever otherwise. 

[Tony Brooks]

But the likes of the BMCs and Perkins found inland all have full flow oil filters, certainly all the Kubota and Mitsubishi marinisations I have seen do. However you are correct in respect of some even older designs.

[David Mack]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

But the likes of the BMCs and Perkins found inland all have full flow oil filters, certainly all the Kubota and Mitsubishi marinisations I have seen do. However you are correct in respect of some even older designs.

But my 1979 Lister ST3 has no oil filter - the manual states that they were not fitted to the marine version, but were standard on the industrial. Must be quite a few engines like that still in use.

[dmr]

31 minutes ago, David Mack said:

In addition to the bore-glazing point, modern engines have full flow oil filters, so all of the oil passes through the filter and any metallic particles in the oil get caught. But older engines may have partial flow filters or no oil filter at all. These older engines rely on the metallic particles falling to the bottom of the sump, to be (mostly) removed when the oil is changed. Modern high grade oils have detergent additives which tend to keep the metallic particles in suspension, which is fine if they get filtered out, but not so clever otherwise. 

Yes, but I believe its the dispersant rather than the detergent that matters here. The detergent dissolves the sludge/varnish to keep the engine clean, the dispersant holds the metal (or more likely soot) particles in the oil to be picked up by the full flow filter.

The old VW air cooled engines had no filter, just a strainer, so the owners used Morris straight 30 oil to avoid the dispersant. Some owners fitted a proper full flow filter so there was some debate as the whether a modern multigrade oil would then be more suitable.

..............Dave

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

But my 1979 Lister ST3 has no oil filter - the manual states that they were not fitted to the marine version, but were standard on the industrial. Must be quite a few engines like that still in use.

Note that I carefully said designs. I am not saying there is anything wrong with such engines, just that its an old design. My guess the basic design goes back to the 1920s or 30s with just tweaks between to uprate etc. I do not want people with what is now an old engien to assume that their engine does not have a full flow oil filter. Most probably do.

[Momac]

9 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Probably not that critical, but with closer matches freely available why not stick with what the mariniser recommends.

I thought it was a match but I am incorrect as I did not understand the significance of the CC and CF specifications 

The Shell Rimula RT4X oil is suitable for my engine (Volvo Penta) but not in a narrowboat engine.

[luggsy]

I have been using this for a barrus shire 45 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXOL-VICTORY-15W40-MINERAL-ENGINE-OIL-API-CD-SF-4-X-4-5-LTR-CAR-COMMERCIAL/350465431780?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

[Quaysider]

1 hour ago, luggsy said:

I have been using this for a barrus shire 45 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXOL-VICTORY-15W40-MINERAL-ENGINE-OIL-API-CD-SF-4-X-4-5-LTR-CAR-COMMERCIAL/350465431780?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

oddly enough, I apologised to the tenant and orderd just the same thing!

[aracer]

On 01/01/2018 at 17:14, alan_fincher said:

For the BMC 1500 & 1800 engines at UK temperatures virtually all the originally recommended oils were either 20W/50 or 15W/50, (I doubt you would easily now find the latter).

10W/40 was only a recommendation for the temperature range -20 to 10 degrees C (-5 to 50 degrees F), so strictly only for use in the UK in winter.

Sorry to revive an oldish thread, but it seems to almost give the answer - I have a BMC 1800, so would https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-classic-car-oil-20w50-5l/p/0342792 or https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/engine-oil/halfords-classic-oil-20w50-5l be an appropriate oil? It seems to have 15W40 in at the moment which is what I was looking for, but if 20W50 would work fine...

[aracer]

Further to that, just to ponder a bit on oil grades for boat use. Presumably a higher SAE spec for higher temperatures isn't a problem as in that case the whole point of multigrade is to maintain a reasonable level of viscosity and up to a point the higher the better, hence the 50 shouldn't be a problem? The lower temperature spec is far less of an issue on a trad narrowboat which is being lived on, where not only should the engine tend to be well above freezing normally but it's fairly straightforward to heat it if not (apart from heating the engine room, it occurs to me that using the gas heater should transfer some heat via the calorifier). So provided SAE20 is thin enough to crank normally you don't have to worry about it getting thicker at really cold temperatures - and if 10W40 or 15W40 is fine for use in a vehicle where the engine is likely to get a lot colder, 20W50 should be fine on my boat?

[Tony Brooks]

Either should be OK so go for the cheaper. Also look for API CF. I think you will get the even cheaper in 15W40 and as long as your 1800 is properly run in it is very unlikely to cause any problems. I run my Bukh on CF although the manual says CC or CD

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Either should be OK so go for the cheaper. Also look for API CF. I think you will get the even cheaper in 15W40 and as long as your 1800 is properly run in it is very unlikely to cause any problems. I run my Bukh on CF although the manual says CC or CD

Could that be because your manual was written before CF existed?

[blackrose]

I bought some of this from eBay recently for my Isuzu. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

Could that be because your manual was written before CF existed?

Almost certainly yes, but remember the way we use the engines on typical inland boats is very, very different to the way vehicle engines are used so the ultra low power running and consequential low cylinder temperatures just might cause problems like glazing. I simply do not know so can't say sing CF will definitely be without problems.

[aracer]

So I popped in to my local Wilko but they didn't have any of the classic oil on the shelf. They did however have https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-high-mineral-motor-oil-20w50-5l/p/034279 which is even cheaper and it seems to suggest it should be suitable. However no mention of api spec either online or on the container itself, so it's a bit unknown. I'm thinking it would be fine, but not 100% sure.

Edited November 7, 2018 by aracer

[Tony Brooks]

6 minutes ago, aracer said:

So I popped in to my local Wilko but they didn't have any of the classic oil on the shelf. They did however have https://www.wilko.com/en-uk/wilko-high-mineral-motor-oil-20w50-5l/p/034279 which is even cheaper and it seems to suggest it should be suitable. However no mention of api spec either online or on the container itself, so it's a bit unknown. I'm thinking it would be fine, but not 100% sure.

I have avoided the Comma equivalent that was 20W50 but did not give an API spec. Like you I suspect it will be Ok but not worth the risk. I would rather use CF than that.

[Johny London]

To the OP, I have the same engine and have almost never been able to source the correct oil or other parts. Even at chandlers, they don't have exactly the right stuff. Either the oil grade is out slightly (ie 10 or 20/40 instead of 15/40 for example) and/or the CC rating is invariable higher to some extent. I think once I got the right stuff when I was near one of their main agents in Essex somewhere, though even that (engines plus) was 10/40 but at least it was CC.

Coma do a 15/40 that is CF-CG and can be found at Motorist discount centres. 

Oil filters - again, even in the chandlers I normally get given an equivalent. Though this has proven useful as I now have "car numbers" for oil filters so can easily find a match anywhere for 5-6 quid. (Look up MAN W914/26 though the ones I have at the moment are Mahle OC 269. Although onlinefilters suggests an OC312 as an equivalent.

I haven't been so lucky with the air filter - they are £18 on ebay and very hard to come by, but one of these days I'm going to take one to a car shop and if they have enough patience ask them to go through their stock to find a match. Once I have a "proper" number sourcing cheap equivalents anywhere should be easy.

 

Oh and I nearly forgot - Halfords are currently doing Mobil 5l 15/40 for £20 (dunno what C rating). I just got some and did a service.

[Tony Brooks]

If its the air filter I think it is then Leamco (Motor factors) in Banbury still stock them for (I quote) you boat boys.

[Boater Sam]

I have run BMCs, Betas,Kubotas, Citroens, Fords and many other engines on whatever oil was available at a good price at the time.

Duckhams 20w/50, BP Viscostatic, 15w40 Rotella etc.  Never pay more than £3 a litre.

Currently we have a contract with Morris' for 15w/40 which goes into everything from welding sets  through all the MF tractors and combines, all the cars, Merc. Isuzu, Ford, Pugs, and my BMC boat engine. Consider a tractor that can spend all day on full chat at full power when ploughing,  far heavier use than any narrowboat engine is ever subjected to.

Never had any problems, its the frequency of change that matters most, clean oil of just about any grade will do an engine little harm. The AA ran all their fleet on straight 30s oils for many years for a cost reason and the milage their vehicles do is enormous.

Its not oil pressure that is vital, its the flow through the bearings and the splash up the bore, thinner oils circulate faster on a cold start which is the most critical time.