Trad v Semi-Trad v Cruiser!!....Fight Night!!

[Neil2]

8 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

There is no right answer to this.  

I bought a cruiser stern, reverse layout.  Many of the reasons for this have been given above but the deal breaker for me was that my original mooring was stern-on against a pontoon.  So I wanted easy and workable access from the stern.............  

 

 

 

I think that's a very good point, and not often made in these discussions.   In fact whenever this topic is raised more often than not the debate revolves around the cruising experience when in fact most of the time you spend aboard is when the boat is moored.  So I think that's the most important thing to consider, and especially if you spend a lot of time in a marina with narrow pontoons.  

It's surprising how much access on and off the boat can interfere with your enjoyment.  

All the points about engine access, noise, steering position, weather protection etc can all be countered/addressed but you can't get around the fact that a cruiser gives you more options, access wise.    

[Dave_P]

4 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I agree with much of this - in particular as noted above it's down to the owner to decide whether "sociable cruising" is an advantage or a disadvantage.

I do think it's an over sweeping statement to say that engine access in  modern trads is awful. Some are - eg the last boat I crewed on, access to the batteries required a contortionist - due to excess joinery which looks nice but does restrict access. But on my boat the whole floor comes out in about five minutes, and the steel supports, and you are left with this which is very easy to access.

That looks excellent.  And might well tempt me towards a modern trad which would suit both of us.  I've not seen one like that before.

[MtB]

On 05/07/2017 at 09:42, Dave_P said:

My OH is clear on one thing, she doesn't see any point in an engine room.  I suspect this is a common boy-girl split.

 

I think it's more to do with never having lived with one. Plenty of blokes on here too who can't grasp how useful the space is, apart from for servicing the engine.

[Dave_P]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think it's more to do with never having lived with one. Plenty of blokes on here too who can't grasp how useful the space is, apart from for servicing the engine.

Help me out then.  List the uses.

[RLWP]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Help me out then.  List the uses.

It's where you keep the toilet, the washing machine, dump toolboxes, hide bikes, pile crap in the corners, hang wet clothes, construct storage spaces...

I've worked in a few - can you tell?

Richard

[Dave_P]

1 minute ago, RLWP said:

It's where you keep the toilet, the washing machine, dump toolboxes, hide bikes, pile crap in the corners, hang wet clothes, construct storage spaces...

I've worked in a few - can you tell?

Richard

I keep my toilet in the bathroom.  It takes all sorts i suppose.

[RLWP]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

I keep my toilet in the bathroom.  It takes all sorts i suppose.

You don't kick around on 'working boats'

'Modern' trads are similar, except the engine is kept in a box under the steerers feet (who is a contortionist to get into the cabin). The box has to be dismantled to work on half the engine. The other half is inaccessible

Semi trads put the engine under the steerers feet at the bottom of a deep hole, surrounded by batteries, calorifiers, diesel heaters, wires, pipes, toolboxes, oil bottles and assorted crap. It is accessible only to speleologists

Cruiser sterns keep their engines easily and quickly accessible in a spacious engine hole. Unfortunately, this can be below deck boards used to store bikes, plant pots, garden furniture, barbecues, stray ballast and rubbish bags. The bilges of a cruiser stern vary from spotlessly clean and dry through to nine inches of water with 2mm of oil on top. Tools falling in can be considered lost for ever

Weedhatches - now there's a subject

Richard

[mark99]

Engine room. Just tell the lady she can have the whole saloon to herself whilst the bloke is in engine room twiddling his tappets and tightening his nuts.

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, Dave_P said:

Help me out then.  List the uses.

I find the best use they have is for blocking any heat from the forward stove ever reaching the boatmans cupboard torture bed at the rear end thus enabling the need to fit and burn fuel in two stoves not one. also they enable the stack to be pointed out through the deckhead so to blow smoke and soot into your face when traversing a lovely long low tunnel such as the Harecastle. Even better are the ones fitted with tug decks such as my bro in laws, his boat is 67 feet long but there is actualy more living space in a 23 ft springer waterbug 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

Ahh, tug decks!  Don't start me off on that one.  Surely the most pointless thing ever found on a boat used for leisure purposes.

Yeah nearly as daft as an " Engine room " I think they are just about ok for hobby boating but hey ho some people even fit macerator bogs so who knows?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Ahh, tug decks!  Don't start me off on that one.  Surely the most pointless thing ever found on a boat used for leisure purposes.

 

More use than a cruiser stern. For a start they perform much the same fuinction but there is acres of storage space below them. Or in the case of my boat, a bedroom and a garden shed below it.

(Not a very tall garden shed, but a volume about 7ft x 5ft x 5ft for keeping all my junk in.)

Edited July 5, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Dave_P]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

More use than a cruiser stern. For a start they perform much the same fuinction but there is acres of storage space below them. Or in the case of my boat, a bedroom and a garden shed below it.

(Not a very tall garden shed, but a volume about 7ft x 5ft x 5ft for keeping all my junk in.)

You steer from your tug deck?

[Tawny75]

4 hours ago, Dave_P said:

There is no right answer to this.  

I bought a cruiser stern, reverse layout.  Many of the reasons for this have been given above but the deal breaker for me was that my original mooring was stern-on against a pontoon.  So I wanted easy and workable access from the stern.  Trads don't offer this.  So think about what works for you and how you intend to use the boat.  My cruiser stern is a little unusual in that the floor level is dropped down and not flush with the gunwales.  This gives me the benefit of being able to store all kinds of stuff on there without it ending up in the cut on a windy day.  The downside is that forward vision when cruising is affected as the cabin height seems much higher.  I also have a pretty high cabin top and roof boxes, but I'm 6'2" so, again, it works for me.  A short boater would not get on with my boat at all.

Trads should be seperated into two groups, trad-trad and modern trad.  Trad-trads have a separate engine room.  Modern trads have the engine under the counter.

Pros and cons:

Trad-trad - lots of interior space, but a fair bit not really useable for living space, quiet cruising, space to dry wet clothes, warm cruising, potentially lonely cruising, easy engine access.

Modern trad - the max indoor living space possible, not much room on rear deck, terrible engine access, warm cruising.

Semi-trad - sociable cruising, loss of indoor space, kind of looks like a trad, bad engine access, cold cruising.

cruiser - sociable cruising, cold cruising, easy access from the stern, good engine access (usually).

I now have a linear mooring so stern access is less important.  My good lady and I have tentatively considered buying a longer boat to live on together, 65'+.  I can see the benefit of a trad-trad, but would prefer a modern engine and controls. My OH is clear on one thing, she doesn't see any point in an engine room.  I suspect this is a common boy-girl split.

 

 

 

At 5'2" I feel i would struggle somewhat on your boat

[tree monkey]

This is a slightly odd comment i admit but i dont like steering cruiser sterns, i feel disconected from the boat, i can't  put it any better tbh but it just feels odd.

plus Starcoasters comment about control access  is spot on

[noddyboater]

Tug decks are pointless??!

They actually perform a really important function- to make the boat look good. I'm quite willing to give away some cabin space to have a boat that's pleasing on the eye. Might not be important to some people but it certainly is to me!

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

This is a slightly odd comment i admit but i dont like steering cruiser sterns, i feel disconected from the boat, i can't  put it any better tbh but it just feels odd.

plus Starcoasters comment about control access  is spot on

 

I find the same. Closest I can describe is agoraphobic. Stuck out the back away from everything, nowhere to sit, nothing to lean on, You're just stood there like a lemon taking everything the weather can throw at you. 

1 minute ago, noddyboater said:

Tug decks are pointless??!

They actually perform a really important function- to make the boat look good. I'm quite willing to give away some cabin space to have a boat that's pleasing on the eye. Might not be important to some people but it certainly is to me!

 

Yes a very good point, and one that passes a large proportion of boaters by when you look at some of the plug ugly monstrosities on the cut.

[Dave_P]

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I find the same. Closest I can describe is agoraphobic. Stuck out the back away from everything, nowhere to sit, nothing to lean on, You're just stood there like a lemon taking everything the weather can throw at you. 

 

Yes a very good point, and one that passes a large proportion of boaters by when you look at some of the plug ugly monstrosities on the cut.

I tend to be a 'form following function' kinda guy when it comes to design.  Tug deck would be more useful if they were replaced by a standard height cabin top.  Therefore they look weird and ugly to me.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

I tend to be a 'form following function' kinda guy when it comes to design.  Tug deck would be more useful if they were replaced by a standard height cabin top.  Therefore they look weird and ugly to me.

 

Your appreciation of style and grace will mature eventually. Probably!

Like an engine room, those who have never had a boat with a decent tug deck don't generally see just how flippin' useful they are.  

[Dave_P]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Your appreciation of style and grace will mature eventually. Probably!

Like an engine room, those who have never had a boat with a decent tug deck cruiser stern don't generally see just how flippin' useful they are.  

Fixed it for you 

Can we just agree about pramhoods maybe?

[MtB]

What's wrong with pram hoods then?

(By the way, are you saying you have plenty ofsecure and dry accommodation beneath your cruiser stern, like I have under my tug deck??)

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What's wrong with pram hoods then?

(By the way, are you saying you have plenty ofsecure and dry accommodation beneath your cruiser stern, like I have under my tug deck??)

They look silly, evenue really so on a tug deck 

[magpie patrick]

5 hours ago, tree monkey said:

This is a slightly odd comment i admit but i dont like steering cruiser sterns, i feel disconected from the boat, i can't  put it any better tbh but it just feels odd.

plus Starcoasters comment about control access  is spot on

When I first got Lutine it felt like handling a toy, the last narrow boat I had owned was a 62 footer and since parting with that if only steered 70 footers. However as one of those was Tawny Owl which also has a large cruiser stern I assume it's because Lutine is short and lightweight with her grp cabin 

[Neil2]

We've had all three styles and FWIW the semi trad we hated even though at the time we thought it was the ideal "cross".  Seemed to be the best of both worlds when in fact it we found it to be the worst of both.

Like others I find steering a cruiser a pain as the throttle control is never where you need it and you and up doing that hokey cokey dance from side to side whereas on a trad you just stand there nonchalantly occasionally peering down the side if absolutely necessary.  And you have somewhere to put your mug of tea, nicholsons guide, camera, GPS, notebook, etc etc.  There's also the minor consideration that if you want to venture into choppy waters say the tidal Thames a cruiser deck is more vulnerable to being swamped.

Having said all that we are considering going back to a cruiser...  You can't get away from the fact that they offer much greater flexibility access wise and if you sail with a partner or a furry friend or two you can have company on deck.         

But if I was single I'd have a "proper" tug style trad in fact I can't imagine any single hander not lusting after one. 

[mark99]

6 hours ago, tree monkey said:

This is a slightly odd comment i admit but i dont like steering cruiser sterns, i feel disconected from the boat, i can't  put it any better tbh but it just feels odd.

 

That's quite an incisive comment there TM.

I know exactly what you mean.

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

But if I was single I'd have a "proper" tug style trad in fact I can't imagine any single hander not lusting after one. 

I am unimaginable.