Electric Boats

[magpie patrick]

The Somerset Coal Canal has a fleet of electric day boats, many of them dating from the opening of the canal in 1988 (I mean the first few hundred yards obviously, not the whole ten miles!) - they are a roaring success although the maintenance guys seem to moan about them a bit

[Rose Narrowboats]

We had three electric day boats back in the 80's. The big problem was getting them back on time to make sure someone was there to put them on charge.

I priced electric vs diesel last year for a Thames launch a customer was restoring. To my amazement electric propulsion worked cheaper over the lifespan of the batteries than diesel (based on current prices) but it was the £10k upfront cost for the batteries that had the customer running for the Beta catalogue.

Anglo Welsh ran some electric hireboats in the 80s but they were viewed as underpowered, and weren't popular with many customers due to the fact that you HAD to be at a set location each evening to recharge them.

[RLWP]

6 hours ago, Heartland said:

There is a hydrogen powered boat at Birmingham University- it was moored on the Worcester & Birmingham by the University grounds.

It was and still is moored there. I suspect it has only moved once as it has to be refilled with hydrogen for each cruise

Richard

[magpie patrick]

17 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

We had three electric day boats back in the 80's. The big problem was getting them back on time to make sure someone was there to put them on charge.

I priced electric vs diesel last year for a Thames launch a customer was restoring. To my amazement electric propulsion worked cheaper over the lifespan of the batteries than diesel (based on current prices) but it was the £10k upfront cost for the batteries that had the customer running for the Beta catalogue.

Anglo Welsh ran some electric hireboats in the 80s but they were viewed as underpowered, and weren't popular with many customers due to the fact that you HAD to be at a set location each evening to recharge them.

That is true of cars - I calculated recently that my VW Golf (T reg, 109,000 on the clock) has, over the course of it's life so far, used over £16,000 worth of petrol at today's prices

[Rose Narrowboats]

I went to an IEE lecture on that fuel cell powered ex maintenance boat a few years ago. It sounded fantastic until afterwards when I asked some basic questions which turned out to be rather awkward to answer. I can't remember the specifics now, but fragile would be a good word to describe the fuel cell.

With the amount of electrical gibbins demanded by boaters these days, I think hybrid is the way to go at the moment but no one has got the budget to do it properly. If I could afford to build a fleet of electrically propelled boats with super silenced automatic genset with full data logging I would be, right now.

[Derek R.]

There is indeed a lot of interest and development into battery powered vehicles. What there isn't - is much interest in the capabilities of the National Grid to supply sufficient electricity for charging said vehicles if they ever got to the point of replacing i.c. engines. We are looking at some severe reductions in output with the ever inability to supply the demands that society craves, with few plans for future power supply to meet those demands save a bunch of windmills that also need conventional power supply back up to balance the system - something windfarms cannot do. The costliest folly.

[Laurence Hogg]

Of course we had it in the past, only 500 volts over your head from the local tramway generating station, could work again?

 

[ditchcrawler]

12 hours ago, Heartland said:

There is a hydrogen powered boat at Birmingham University- it was moored on the Worcester & Birmingham by the University grounds. I though I caught a glimpse of it when I came back from the RCHS 9th Waterways History Conference on the 24th June. 

I wonder when it last ran?

 

This was the reply to another post that just got combined 

I loved these when I was a kid, my first experience of boating and they were electric http://www.francisfrith.com/uk/lowestoft/lowestoft-electric-boating-lake-kensington-gardens-c1955_l105090

Edited July 2, 2017 by ditchcrawler

[ditchcrawler]

5 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

We had three electric day boats back in the 80's. The big problem was getting them back on time to make sure someone was there to put them on charge.

I priced electric vs diesel last year for a Thames launch a customer was restoring. To my amazement electric propulsion worked cheaper over the lifespan of the batteries than diesel (based on current prices) but it was the £10k upfront cost for the batteries that had the customer running for the Beta catalogue.

Anglo Welsh ran some electric hireboats in the 80s but they were viewed as underpowered, and weren't popular with many customers due to the fact that you HAD to be at a set location each evening to recharge them.

There are some on the Broads at Wroxham http://www.richardsonsboatingholidays.co.uk/norfolk-broads-day-boat-hire/

[Ronaldo47]

I recall seeing the Anglo-Welsh  electric boats in their catalogue but the need to stop (overnight) for a recharge  at particular locations, which would have severely limited the cruising options, was a definite no-no. I would think that this issue would still limit the uptake of electric boats. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typo

[cuthound]

12 hours ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I recall seeing the Anglo-Welsh  electric boats in their catalogue but the need to stop (overnight) for a recharge  at particular locations, which would have severely limited the cruising options, was a definite no-no. I would think that this issue would still limit the uptake of electric boats. 

 

Yes I recall British Waterways saying they were going to introduce charging points at strategic places for overnight stops back in tne 80's.

 

Then the idea was quietly dropped, presumably when someone costed the cost of running electricity cables to numerous remote locations.

[BEngo]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Yes I recall British Waterways saying they were going to introduce charging points at strategic places for overnight stops back in tne 80's.

 

Then the idea was quietly dropped, presumably when someone costed the cost of running electricity cables to numerous remote locations.

And the cost of installing  the metering equipment and having it regularly checked, and the credit card reader so the user can pay, and the comms, before GSM, and the likelihood of vandalism, and, and...

BW could not get washing machines, showers or pump out to work reliably.  CART are no better and have mainly given up.  Electric hook up is patchy, at CART controlled sites.  I doubt they would want to even think about boat charging points in house. If it could be made attractive to a franchisee then things might be different.  That would require a real leap of faith, and really big money from a franchisee, or Gubbinsment, and would have to be followed quickly by practically useable electric boats in substantial numbers.

 

It is going to have to happen before about 2040 though, or the canals will be back to 'oss power.  Reconvert some stables anyone?

N

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, BEngo said:

And the cost of installing  the metering equipment and having it regularly checked, and the credit card reader so the user can pay, and the comms, before GSM, and the likelihood of vandalism, and, and...

BW could not get washing machines, showers or pump out to work reliably.  CART are no better and have mainly given up.  Electric hook up is patchy, at CART controlled sites.  I doubt they would want to even think about boat charging points in house. If it could be made attractive to a franchisee then things might be different.  That would require a real leap of faith, and really big money from a franchisee, or Gubbinsment, and would have to be followed quickly by practically useable electric boats in substantial numbers.

 

It is going to have to happen before about 2040 though, or the canals will be back to 'oss power.  Reconvert some stables anyone?

N

 

Of course if they improved the towpaths to accept cars, then they could tap into the funds being made available for electric vehicle charging points... ??

Edited July 21, 2020 by cuthound
Phat phingers

[ditchcrawler]

The Broads Authority installed them and found they were only used for power onboard for TV Dishwashers etc.

[Derek R.]

Broadcast TV we have done away with (for good reason), and we have never had any kind of automated dish-washer. Far quicker by hand, cheaper and more efficient. Growing up in the fifties with just a gas cooker, 'dolly' tub and mangle, and a bath hung on a nail probably helped. (Had terrible trouble keeping water in it).

[Tony Brooks]

Have the electric canoes that were on the Thames in Edwardian times been mentioned? I think I  saw a photo of electric propulsion via a trolley pole on the River Wey as well. Probably only as far as the big mill who's owner I think owned the navigation at one time.

[IanD]

On 02/07/2017 at 18:29, Derek R. said:

There is indeed a lot of interest and development into battery powered vehicles. What there isn't - is much interest in the capabilities of the National Grid to supply sufficient electricity for charging said vehicles if they ever got to the point of replacing i.c. engines. We are looking at some severe reductions in output with the ever inability to supply the demands that society craves, with few plans for future power supply to meet those demands save a bunch of windmills that also need conventional power supply back up to balance the system - something windfarms cannot do. The costliest folly.

Suggest you go and read the documents released by the National Grid (and others) which disagree completely with what you say about grid capacity -- and they should know, it's their grid...

 

Where the power comes from in the first place is a different problem, and renewables do have a problem here when there's no wind or sun.

 

The problem with hydrogen for narrowboats is that its not an energy source, it's an energy storage mechanism like batteries -- to generate it needs either electricity (could be from renewables) or fossil fuels. This matters because the overall efficiency of power grid-hydrogen generation-storage-distribution-fuel cell-motor is about half that of power grid-batteries-motor, so fuel costs (and energy usage) are about double -- in fact if you start from fossil fuels (e,g, methane) it's more efficient and emits less CO2 to burn them directly in an IC engine.

 

The advantages of hydrogen (energy density, storage capacity, refueling time) may be relevant for planes (assuming the energy comes from renewables) but not for narrowboats.

[Cinimod]

Regards fully battery powered cars - BEV - with the intro of the Tesla Model 3 things are starting to shift.

https://www.parkers.co.uk/car-news/bestselling-cars/

OK, so still need a LOT more, but it is proven that a good practical car can be made.

The majority of current new model BEV's will do a upwards of 200 miles on a charge, and some will do over 400 miles.

Then charging times - if you have a Tesla you can charge up 300 miles in 30 minutes... which is how long it takes you to get into the average service station, use the bathroom and get out again!  Even the slower charging cars are getting a lot better - the Nissan Leaf takes 40 mins to get to 80% charge, and the Renault Zoe takes about an hour.

The thing to think about though is that the majority of people do not charge their cars anywhere, other than at their home for the majority of the time... simply get home, plug in and wake up with a full 'tank' the next morning... (you can not do that with Petrol or Diesel)

 

A fully electric narrow boat - that is something I am hoping to aim for and will most certainly be looking into the practicalities of it... there must be some car parks close to canals where companies would want to install rapid chargers for cars, that they could take a feed off for boats too.  OR we need to develop a unit, which is 'easily' removable, so that you can take it to the local car park to charge up - for that we need much greater power density or they would be far too heavy to move.

 

They do have a review of a hybrid boat in this month Waterways World - https://waterwaysworld.com/magazine/onsalenow

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Derek R.]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

Suggest you go and read the documents released by the National Grid (and others) which disagree completely with what you say about grid capacity -- and they should know, it's their grid...

 

(snipped)

It is, and they need to sell it. However, there are problems: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/ngdot/11751146/The-National-Grid-must-change-to-stop-a-new-dark-age.html

Five years old, but then my comment was three years old.

Six months ago: https://thenextweb.com/cars/2020/01/06/uk-power-grid-not-ready-electric-cars-boom-cost-billions/

 

[Cinimod]

This FullyCharged podcast is interesting and how they need to solve the issue.

https://fullycharged.show/podcasts/podcast-69/

 

Smart Grids and local battery storage, including smart chargers - so you don't need to massively upgrade the infrastructure, just use is it better.

One thing they do need to plan over the next 10 to 15 years is for the retirement of the majority of the nuclear facilities.

This is replaceable with renewables, but they need to work out storage too...

 

 

[IanD]

15 hours ago, Derek R. said:

It is, and they need to sell it. However, there are problems: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/ngdot/11751146/The-National-Grid-must-change-to-stop-a-new-dark-age.html

Five years old, but then my comment was three years old.

Six months ago: https://thenextweb.com/cars/2020/01/06/uk-power-grid-not-ready-electric-cars-boom-cost-billions/

 

Sure, selling off essential national infrastructure to the private sector has been *such* a great success in the UK... ?

 

The first article is a typical Telegraph diatribe against a "soviet-style infrastructure" company, it offers neither insight nor solutions, and is nothing to do with electric car charging or grid capacity.

 

The second one is a moan about delays/difficulties in installing high-power charging stations -- which is obvious, but also nothing to do with grid/generation capacity.

 

Yes it's obvious that if lots of people plug into rapid chargers at the same time (or even at home at the same time, like kettles after EastEnders) the grid won't be able to cope, but the post above (and my earlier one) explains how this can and will be avoided -- differential billing, smart charging, load spreading, communication between grid and chargers and cars, cars as energy storage. This spreads demand peaks out and moves demand into the slack periods when the grid has plenty of spare capacity, and as the National Grid documents show if this is done there won't be any big grid/generator overload problem -- which is what we were talking about.

 

Saying "but if things don't change..." is ignoring the fact that they *have* to change to support widespread adoption of BEV, the current free-for-all uncontrolled charging situation only works because there are still very few BEV about.

 

The biggest issue -- which again is nothing to do with BEV, it applies to all electricity users -- is how to fill in the renewable energy gaps (no wind and/or sun) if we also get rid of fossil fuels (dirty coal, then gas) and nuclear. Continent-wide distribution networks are expensive and not really being planned for properly yet, even if the renewable capacity problem is fixed (e.g. 1000km2 solar arrays in the Sahara) there really is going to be a need for mass energy storage to smooth out the mismatch between demand and supply peaks and dips. There are proposals for this but they're mostly way too small scale to be able to keep entire countries going for days, which is what is needed.

 

If this problem is solved then we don't need to worry about BEV charging. If it's not solved we have much bigger things to worry about than BEV... ?

Edited July 23, 2020 by IanD

[Derek R.]

Give me three years and I might respond.

[IanD]

57 minutes ago, Derek R. said:

Give me three years and I might respond.

You're the one who said the big problem was that the grid couldn't supply the power for EV (post #31), several replies explained why this won't actually be the case.

 

Walking away from the discussion because your arguments have been rebutted won't make you any less wrong... ?

[Cinimod]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

The biggest issue -- which again is nothing to do with BEV, it applies to all electricity users -- is how to fill in the renewable energy gaps (no wind and/or sun) if we also get rid of fossil fuels (dirty coal, then gas) and nuclear. Continent-wide distribution networks are expensive and not really being planned for properly yet, even if the renewable capacity problem is fixed (e.g. 1000km2 solar arrays in the Sahara) there really is going to be a need for mass energy storage to smooth out the mismatch between demand and supply peaks and dips. There are proposals for this but they're mostly way too small scale to be able to keep entire countries going for days, which is what is needed.

 

 

In the UK we are 'lucky' in this respect - we are an Island - and in fact have some of the highest tidal ranges in the world around our shores.

 

Projects like this - http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/cardiff/ - it has the potential to generate 3,000 MW - as a comparison - Hinckley C capacity is around 3,260MW
I know which project I would rather support!  And they have 4 other sites which show great potential...

 

If you want to take it local - there is potential to build micro geothermal power stations like they are going to at the Eden Porject - https://www.edengeothermal.com/

 

These are not sources which come and go, but will provide a reliable and constant source of power - in fact the tidal lagoons can potentially be switched on and off like the hydro at Denorwig

 

If you need something quick - then there are these tidal turbines - which generate far more power than wind turbines, due to the increased density of water over air - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-49471881

 

Yes, we do need battery (or other) storage and there are a lot of very creative people all over the world working on different solutions... for the moment - it would be very 'easy' for the 'Grid' to deploy battery banks at local substations.

 

It is all very exciting really in the race to decarbonise - it will be interesting to see what rules and regs they bring in about inland boat engines and if they will introduce the equivalent of the Ultra Low Emissions Zone requiring hybrid or Electric drive trains.  (There may already be some out there, but I am newly back to the cut after 9 years...)

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, Cinimod said:

In the UK we are 'lucky' in this respect - we are an Island - and in fact have some of the highest tidal ranges in the world around our shores.

 

Projects like this - http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/cardiff/ - it has the potential to generate 3,000 MW - as a comparison - Hinckley C capacity is around 3,260MW
I know which project I would rather support!  And they have 4 other sites which show great potential...

 

If you want to take it local - there is potential to build micro geothermal power stations like they are going to at the Eden Porject - https://www.edengeothermal.com/

 

These are not sources which come and go, but will provide a reliable and constant source of power - in fact the tidal lagoons can potentially be switched on and off like the hydro at Denorwig

 

If you need something quick - then there are these tidal turbines - which generate far more power than wind turbines, due to the increased density of water over air - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-49471881

 

Yes, we do need battery (or other) storage and there are a lot of very creative people all over the world working on different solutions... for the moment - it would be very 'easy' for the 'Grid' to deploy battery banks at local substations.

 

It is all very exciting really in the race to decarbonise - it will be interesting to see what rules and regs they bring in about inland boat engines and if they will introduce the equivalent of the Ultra Low Emissions Zone requiring hybrid or Electric drive trains.  (There may already be some out there, but I am newly back to the cut after 9 years...)

 

 

 

 

The issue with tidal power --which is indeed very reliable, and spread out evenly over time around the UK -- is that though it can generate what looks like a *lot* of power, it's still only a small fraction of what we consume, and much lower than "on-off" renewables like wind and especially solar. If you look at the figures in SEWTHA by David MacKay (absolutely essential reading, and free) the most optimistic figure for tidal power is less than a tenth of total demand, and not much more than a tenth of total available power from renewables -- the attached page shows (optimistic) estimates of (maximum) deliverable power, do note the huge areas/sizes/costs that are needed to make this work, as well as the total estimated cost of about 15k per person which is about a trillion (10^12) pounds...

 

[SEWTHA is one of the very few sources which doesn't just go "woo-hoo, that's a *lot* of power" but looks at how the numbers add up compared to actual requirements]

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by IanD