Marinas that charge per ft width darn sarth

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:03, mrsmelly said:

Agreed with your impossible due to work commitments charging regime they may well be the answer. I suppose the price will drop over the coming years much like solar has come down?

 

Academic right now as I have the Whispergen. I'll have it installed and working by the autumn and they are so quiet they can run any time of day or night. And heat the bote at the same time. 

If the Whispergen doesn't work as planned I'll try some of these lithiums 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Not much gets past you Tim

[Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks for the link. A bit worrying that there is no mention of how to charge them. Or any instruction manuals on the site, unless I'm failing to see them.

You program your charger to do a bulk charge at 14.4-14.6v, and disable the absorption charge if possible as it’s not really required.  The Relions have a built in BMS, so are wired up like normal batteries.

http://www.jenericramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Relion-Lithium-Battery-Charging-Info-and-Troubleshooting-2-2016-1.doc

[bizzard]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well given I spent £400 on a set of Trojanoids that don't work, £2k for a set of these would be excellent value! 

Provided they do want they are claimed to do. about which I still have my doubts.

 

They had probably connected them up the wrong way around... An easy mistake to make with a battery. Ask starcoaster!

Quite a few airliners have had to divert in an emergency recently because of burning smells, whether its something to do with batteries I don't know. The Egyptair A320 that crashed into the Med last year apparently had smoke in the cockpit before it crashed. No more imfo or reason why that disaster happened has been reported, although I think the Egyptians are just keeping stum about it.

Edited July 1, 2017 by bizzard

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:11, Robbo said:

You program your charger to do a bulk charge at 14.4-14.6v, and disable the absorption charge if possible as it’s not really required.  The Relions have a built in BMS, so are wired up like normal batteries.

http://www.jenericramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Relion-Lithium-Battery-Charging-Info-and-Troubleshooting-2-2016-1.doc

 

You grossly over-simplify it. 

Straight away from your link: 

Because of the different parameters required for charging lithium ion batteries as opposed to lead acid batteries, we do not recommend using a standard lead acid charger for your RELiON Battery. Using a lead acid battery charger with lithium ion technology presents risks of damage, decreased lifespan, and overall suboptimal performance.

And,

Relion Lithium chargers are specifically programmed for lithium ion technology. These chargers are manufactured by Pro Charging Systems and Progressive Dynamics, they give you both the trusted brand and confidence that your batteries will charge properly every cycle.

Yet they don't appear to be for sale on the Relion website.

And:

In instances of Series or Parallel Connections, your RELiON batteries must be maintained to voltages within 50 millivolts (or .05 volts) of each other. If your system gets out of balance you must charge each battery independently with a 12 volt charger. Once charging is complete, let batteries stand for 4 hours and then check voltage if the batteries voltages are not within 50 millivolts of each other… discharge higher voltage batteries down to the lowest voltage battery, this can be done with a small 12 volt light or similar discharge source. A 2 amp discharge (a single light) at 30 second intervals should reduce voltage in small increments… repeat the process as needed until all batteries voltages are within the 50 millivolt range.

This sounds a right faff, and not something I'm willing to do frankly. I think this was probably the dealbreaker.

[rusty69]

This thread appears to have turned into another battery thread. Sorry probably my fault 

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:31, rusty69 said:

This thread appears to have turned into another battery thread. Sorry probably my fault 

 

I think we had completed the original subject though...

[Robbo]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You grossly over-simplify it. 

Straight away from your link: 

Because of the different parameters required for charging lithium ion batteries as opposed to lead acid batteries, we do not recommend using a standard lead acid charger for your RELiON Battery. Using a lead acid battery charger with lithium ion technology presents risks of damage, decreased lifespan, and overall suboptimal performance.

And,

Relion Lithium chargers are specifically programmed for lithium ion technology. These chargers are manufactured by Pro Charging Systems and Progressive Dynamics, they give you both the trusted brand and confidence that your batteries will charge properly every cycle.

Yet they don't appear to be for sale on the Relion website.

And:

In instances of Series or Parallel Connections, your RELiON batteries must be maintained to voltages within 50 millivolts (or .05 volts) of each other. If your system gets out of balance you must charge each battery independently with a 12 volt charger. Once charging is complete, let batteries stand for 4 hours and then check voltage if the batteries voltages are not within 50 millivolts of each other… discharge higher voltage batteries down to the lowest voltage battery, this can be done with a small 12 volt light or similar discharge source. A 2 amp discharge (a single light) at 30 second intervals should reduce voltage in small increments… repeat the process as needed until all batteries voltages are within the 50 millivolt range.

This sounds a right faff, and not something I'm willing to do frankly. I think this was probably the dealbreaker.

It also states..

If you already have a charger with an AGM setting this is usually appropriate or featuring adjustable settings, you will need to alter those settings to accommodate the lithium ion batteries. 

And if you don’t already have a battery charger with adjustable settings then don’t get Trojans either!

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think we had completed the original subject though...

Oh. Carry on then chaps and chapesses. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by rusty69

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:33, Robbo said:

It also states..

If you already have a charger with an AGM setting this is usually appropriate or featuring adjustable settings, you will need to alter those settings to accommodate the lithium ion batteries. 

And if you don’t already have a battery charger with adjustable settings then don’t get Trojans either!

Even so, charging them is critically fussy.

To achieve the capacities typically needed in a narrowboat one has to buy more than one and series or parallel them up, in which case they need the fussy and seriously time consuming balancing highlighted in the red text. (Red highlighting was by Relion not me, by the way!) 

So until Relion can make a single battery of 200ah or preferably 400ah, they aren't going to be suitable for yer average gung ho everything is simple narrowboater.

 

Spelling edit.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[cereal tiller]

34 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Quite a few airliners have had to divert in an emergency recently because of burning smells, whether its something to do with batteries I don't know. The Egyptair A320 that crashed into the Med last year apparently had smoke in the cockpit before it crashed. No more imfo or reason why that disaster happened has been reported, although I think the Egyptians are just keeping stum about it.

Yes, in that situation,Mummys is the word 

[Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Even so, charging them is critically fussy.

To achieve the capacities typically needed in a narrowboat one has to buy more than one and series or parallel them up, in which case they need the fussy and seriously time consuming balancing highlighted in the red text. (Red highlighting was by Relion not me, by the way!) 

So until Relion can make a single battery of 200ah or preferably 400ah, they aren't going to be suitable for yer average gung ho everything is simple narrowboater.

 

Spelling edit.

They do up to 300ah in a single battery.  Charging them is not fussy, those instructions are for if your system is out of balance!  They don’t recommend going over 4 parallel batteries for that reason.

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 11:53, Robbo said:

They do up to 300ah in a single battery.  Charging them is not fussy, those instructions are for if your system is out of balance!  They don’t recommend going over 4 parallel batteries for that reason.

 

I still don't trust them. It just has the smell of a technically incompetent or dodgy supplier.

If they sell 300ah batteries why aren't they on the website? Why are the charging instructions not on the website? Why do they recommend using their own charger then again, fail to tell you where to buy one?

I think I'll wait for you to buy some first

[Matt&Jo]

The charging systems for lithium as like lipoly is more complicated than standard battery as you should charge using a smart balancing system by which you can monitor the charge rates of each battery as it takes on charge. This is very important but not neccesarily expensive with Lipoly specificaly. Get it wrong and the batterys can explode into flames in spectacular fasion. I agree with an above comment tha u only need half the amph of standard lead acid or gel but the price point is way off for me..... 

[Matt&Jo]

Counter arguement tho is off course with standard batterys the engine should be run to recgarge over a period of hours which is innoficient any how costs in fuel and servicing plus idling engines are not ideal as they dont burn off fully any condensation or water in the system hence idling engines can get milking of the oil then offset the cost against a geny say 4-5k the batterys if as advertised do as they say on the tin it may work out cost affective in tge very long run.

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Counter arguement tho is off course with standard batterys the engine should be run to recgarge over a period of hours which is innoficient any how costs in fuel and servicing plus idling engines are not ideal as they dont burn off fully any condensation or water in the system hence idling engines can get milking of the oil then offset the cost against a geny say 4-5k the batterys if as advertised do as they say on the tin it may work out cost affective in tge very long run.

This is probably true for an engine that is used solely for the purpose of battery charging. The typical  narrowboat engine however was intended to be used for propulsion, with battery charging an added bonus. 

[Robbo]

40 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Counter arguement tho is off course with standard batterys the engine should be run to recgarge over a period of hours which is innoficient any how costs in fuel and servicing plus idling engines are not ideal as they dont burn off fully any condensation or water in the system hence idling engines can get milking of the oil then offset the cost against a geny say 4-5k the batterys if as advertised do as they say on the tin it may work out cost affective in tge very long run.

It’s the main reason I’m getting Lithium batteries is for the reduced and more efficient charging.

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This suggests your grip on lead acid battery technilogy is shaky at best, as the amusing pish-taking posts suggest. I think you either need to do a lot of homework or decide to adopt the default position of people who don't look after their batteries properly, of buying a new set of cheapos annually.

 

Yes, if only lead acid batteries would remember their original capacity after a few cycles of not quite being fully recharged 

[Matt&Jo]

58 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

This is probably true for an engine that is used solely for the purpose of battery charging. The typical  narrowboat engine however was intended to be used for propulsion, with battery charging an added bonus. 

Exactly my point rusty most engines are designed to run at different rpms hence higher temps hence burnt off condensation and reduced or no milking of oils. This in a marine environment is far more likely tho. Being in tge trucking industru i beleive commercial engines ie hgv agri etc can handle this alot better due to being built more robustly and to slightly more forgiving tolerances but this is disputed.......

[cereal tiller]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

This is probably true for an engine that is used solely for the purpose of battery charging. The typical  narrowboat engine however was intended to be used for propulsion, with battery charging an added bonus. 

Agreed,my Boats wee 6 BHP Diesel D.C. water cooled Generator is up to 70 Degrees C within 4-5 minutes of start up and shows no traces of Water Contamination in it's Oil.

It runs at 50-60 % load during bulk charging and seems OK with light loads during absorption phase

[mark99]

On 30/06/2017 at 19:14, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick slightly. A lot of fun is poked at widebeams but no-one is going to be much bothered by a 9 or 10ft beam boat 60ft long. There are loads about. Its the 12ft and 13ft x 70ft behemoths that some boaters don't like. Not just because of the size but because some (not all) of their owners tend to be a bit thick-skinned and moor inconsiderately as well as taking up half or more of the canal.

Having said that, I too would expect any marina with finger berths to charge twice the price of a NB, once you go wider than 7ft for the reason Alan outlines.

spot on sir.

[WotEver]

On 30/06/2017 at 19:15, mrsmelly said:

the ginagermassive bonus is you never go anywhere near the big slum starting with an L.....................

I always considered Liverpool to be up north...

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

I always considered Liverpool to be up north...

[Drayke]

  On 2017-6-30 at 19:14, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick slightly. A lot of fun is poked at widebeams but no-one is going to be much bothered by a 9 or 10ft beam boat 60ft long. There are loads about. Its the 12ft and 13ft x 70ft behemoths that some boaters don't like. Not just because of the size but because some (not all) of their owners tend to be a bit thick-skinned and moor inconsiderately as well as taking up half or more of the canal.

Having said that, I too would expect any marina with finger berths to charge twice the price of a NB, once you go wider than 7ft for the reason Alan outlines.

 

Marina spacing just needs setting up to take a certain amount of widebeams, maybe one widebeam and one narrow boat. Mine is 11ft wide so will not take up the same space as two narrow boats, so why should I pay double the price of one narrow boat. Planning that’s what is needed.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, F DRAYKE said:

Marina spacing just needs setting up to take a certain amount of widebeams, maybe one widebeam and one narrow boat. Mine is 11ft wide so will not take up the same space as two narrow boats, so why should I pay double the price of one narrow boat. Planning that’s what is needed.

Why should a marina reduce its available berths by having 50% of them taking twice the space of the other 50%, and not charge a higher rate to recover their lost income - "there lies madness"

 

One of my boats is 23 feet beam - I have to pay a widebeam surcharge of 30% above the normal price, my other boat is 14 foot beam, and again I pay 30% surcharge.

I think that is fair.

(BWML Marinas)

I don't know of any marina that charges a surcharge of 2x.