Here We Go Again!! ..but only the DON'T DOs!

[The Grumpy Triker]

OK folks so apologies first as I don't yet have time to hunt through all the old posts nor am I intelligence net enough to know how to filter.....so based on the fact that I am what I am...

....

buying my first boat....to liveaboard (under no dillusions, and looking forward to it like Christmas in one sense) are there any boat makers / engines, avoid full replating jobs, don't buy from them, flooring types/states ...to avoid?

..my biggest fear is buying a boat make or Year that is not good....I trust the older pre-2000 steels as opposed to the modern Chinese steel ....is that sound in narrowboats?

I am so green on what the flooring should be, how do you check the water and sewage tanks, not sure about cassettes, is that part of the initial survey?

I am having to use finance to buy after a split but have a VERY modest budget pre-arranged and now hunting in earnest.....what makes a boat worth £100,000 compared to £40,000 - or in my books....why is my target half the price of a seemingly same type, make, layout, etc.?

sorry but have to ask and can only hope someone has the patience to answer! :-)

[mross]

You do need to use the forums and the search and read and read.  Then you can come up with some specific questions.  Will you be based in a marina?  If you buy some Canal Magazines and study the ads you will see the difference between a £40,000 boat and a £100,000 one.  It's down to size, age and 'extras' like generators, washing machines, satellite systems.  Classic engines and boatman's cabins also bump up the price.

Edited May 4, 2017 by mross

[Neil Smith]

I don't think many will tell you not to buy a certain shell or builder etc for fear of reprisals as has happened in the past.

Neil

[Tony Brooks]

I doubt a surveyor would check any tankage unless he found evidence of their contents under any bilge inspection hatch, even they it would be very difficult. Narrowboats tend to be built like houses with first and second fix so the plumbing, wiring and tanks are likely to go in and then the floor is put down, the boat lined out and the bulkheads and built in furniture fixed in place. You would have to strip a lot of stuff out to get access to such things. Water tanks that are part of the hull usually have an inspection hatch but if its a screw down one I doubt a surveyor will have time to free off the screws and the vendor may not be happy with him doing so.

You can find "soft" flooring if you stamp about on it. In the majority of inland boats I would like to think the floor will be at least WBP ply but I would be happy enough with shuttering ply. I would be very unhappy with things like OSB board but as the vendor may be upset if you lift or attempt to lift decorative flooring I do not see how you will know apart from careful inspection around the bilge hatch.

Remember that in general terms an older boat by a known "quality" builder is usually a better buy than a newer one by a budget builder.

[Sea Dog]

11 hours ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

I am so green on what the flooring should be, how do you check the water and sewage tanks, not sure about cassettes, is that part of the initial survey?

Everything can be - provided you engage a good, independent (ie not the broker's own) surveyor and tell him what you want from him. If you're not experienced, don't buy a boat without trustworthy advice on hand. If you choose a boat without doing the lots of reading and research (as suggested above) and a fair bit mind changing, likely enough you'll buy the wrong boat.

[matty40s]

Indeed, public stoning for buying a Hudson without rivvits and only 10mm2 baseplate is apparently still going on in some areas close to Glascote.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

and only 10mm2 baseplate

That is a very, very short & narrow boat - maybe 20mm long x 0.5mm wide ?

[Athy]

May I suggest a positive approach to your search?

DO find a boat whose interior welcomes you and says "Home" as that's what it's going to be.

THEN look for reasons that it can't be your home: rusting shell, engine in poor condition, signs of internal damp and rot.

IF no such reasons appear, then you've found your boat.

This may sound simplistic but I think it's a reasonable plan.

[MtB]

On 03/05/2017 at 20:37, The Grumpy Triker said:

OK folks so apologies first as I don't yet have time to hunt through all the old posts nor am I intelligence net enough to know how to filter.....so based on the fact that I am what I am...

 

The problem for newbies is the narrowboats are not mass produced like cars. Each boat is built individually, in anything from a farmer's field to a fairly large but still basic industrial unit. So there is none of the consistency and quality that comes with mass production like cars. There are MASSIVE variations in the way everything is done so each boat really must be assessed individually.

Further, each area about which questions occur usually mushrooms out into ever increasing complexity once you scratch the surface of the subject. Flooring is a good example. There are bound to be long and involved threads here discussing flooring which cannot be summed up in a paragraph so there is no substitute for you learning to use the search function. In fact just declaring you can't be bothered to is going to condemn you to making possibly making some easily avoided mistakes. Steel is a good example. There has been quite a bit of discussion on here over the years about steel quality so why not invest some time in getting familiar with the search function and reading all those threads? You NOW it makes sense!

The other option is to make no effort to learn anything and just place your faith in a surveyor to tell you a boat is 'good' or not. This is expensive as surveys cost typically approaching £1k for each one, so your budget will get eaten away pretty quick. In addition even surveyors don't pick up everything (use the search function!) so buying a boat is quite a lottery until you gain a wide knowledge in all areas. The chances of winning the bet when buying blind are higher in my opinion that most here would have you believe. Lots of people happily buy a boat with no further examination than asking to see the BSS certificate and go one to spend years boating with few problems.

Go out and look at some boats, and post links here to any suitable candidates you find. People here will then be happy to post detailed opinions.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, matty40s said:

Indeed, public stoning for buying a Hudson without rivvits and only 10mm2 baseplate is apparently still going on in some areas close to Glascote.

In my opinion buying a Hudson with a 10 mil plate should be a hanging offence but " rivvits " are a nonsense.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Hudson with a 10 mil plate

Some strange dimensions being quoted today :

1 mil is one ten thousand'th of an inch (1/10,000") so a '10 mil' base plate would be a wee bit thin for normal usage.

[Athy]

Perhaps an abbreviation for "millimetres"? About three eighths of an inch in real money, a rough mental calculation suggests.

[Neil2]

I'll have a go...

- Don't buy a boat that has been very recently repainted.  (Conversely a dozen half empty tins of boat paint on board is a definite tick.)

- Don't buy a boat with a few inches of water in the engine bilge ("oh it's impossible to keep them dry..") or a filthy engine bay.  

- Don't buy a boat without looking in the cabin bilge, you'd be surprised how many boats have no access.

- Don't buy a boat that has an inoperative horn - often more trouble to fix than you would think and evidence of neglect.

- Don't buy a boat that has weeds growing out of the bow/stern fenders.

- Don't buy any boat described as "much loved" or "full of character" or worst of all "first to see will buy".

- Don't buy a boat to live on that hasn't been used to live on.

- Don't buy a boat with a name that has letters deliberately omitted eg  "Livin' the Dream" or "Jus Chillin'"

Feel free to neglect any or all of the above if it's love at first sight.  

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

Perhaps an abbreviation for "millimetres"? About three eighths of an inch in real money, a rough mental calculation suggests.

Ahh so thats why I couldnt understand it. The measurement being bandied about is a foreign one used by Europeans and the like....now three eighths of an inch makes moooooocho more sense 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

Perhaps an abbreviation for "millimetres"? About three eighths of an inch in real money, a rough mental calculation suggests.

Could be - could even be an abbreviation for 'miles', but surely it is better to use the 'correct units' that everyone can understand.

Saying 'well you know what I meant' wouldn't really help- 'amps per hour' springs to mind

[Athy]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahh so thats why I couldnt understand it. The measurement being bandied about is a foreign one used by Europeans and the like....now three eighths of an inch makes moooooocho more sense 

Absolutely.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahh so thats why I couldnt understand it. The measurement being bandied about is a foreign one used by Europeans and the like....now three eighths of an inch makes moooooocho more sense 

But 'Mil' is an imperial unit of measurement - non of that johnny-foreigner stuff.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Could be - could even be an abbreviation for 'miles', but surely it is better to use the 'correct units' that everyone can understand.

Saying 'well you know what I meant' wouldn't really help- 'amps per hour' springs to mind

I have never seen "mil" as an abbreviation for miles - the simple "m" is the usual short form. I have heard it, in culinary terms, used also to mean "millilitres".

Amps per hour sound far too technical for me, but I'm sure you're right.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But 'Mil' is an imperial unit of measurement - non of that johnny-foreigner stuff.

" Well you know what I meant "  

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

I have never seen "mil" as an abbreviation for miles - the simple "m" is the usual short form. I have heard it, in culinary terms, used also to mean "millilitres".

Amps per hour sound far too technical for me, but I'm sure you're right.

Agreed, but the 'usual' abbreviation for millimetre would be mm not Mil.

 

Yes it could be 'millilitre' but in the context of the thickness of a base plate it is fairly unlikely - it could also be 'Mil' as in fractions of a circle / compass heading. I used to teach Orienteering and was once confused by a group of Norwegians who had 'metric' compasses where they are calibrated in 'mils' (as are the British Army compasses)

Example : A bearing of South 15 degrees East would be the same as 165 degrees (180 degrees minus 15 degrees). Mils: ... Divide each radian into 1000 mil-radians and you see there are 6283 mil-radians in a circle. Mil-radians are called mils for short.

 

Context is everything !!

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I'll have a go...

- Don't buy a boat with a few inches of water in the engine bilge ("oh it's impossible to keep them dry..") or a filthy engine bay.  

 

Except in many cases it is impossible to keep them dry when the design is bad. It can be difficult and expensive to put right, especially with cruiser and semi-trad sterns. What is much more important is how the bilge has been looked after. If there is a little CLEAN water in a clean and well painted bilge I would not worry. If the bilge is rusty (dry or wet), has dirty or oily water in it then its a sign of neglect and would be a mark down.

Note, few bilge pumps will clear the last half inch or so of water.

Says he who bought a boat with clean water in the bilge and 17 or so years on still has a wet but clean and well painted bilge.

[matty40s]

I have no idea where the 2 came from......

[dogless]

51 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I have no idea where the 2 came from......

From between 1 and 3 of course.

 

Rog

[Arthur Marshall]

Join your local canal society. You'll find someone there who will be happy to come and look at boats with you and they'll know what to look out for. Much cheaper than a surveyor and probably as knowledgeable. And more fun. 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some strange dimensions being quoted today :

1 mil is one ten thousand'th of an inch (1/10,000") so a '10 mil' base plate would be a wee bit thin for normal usage.

 

Hmmm I'm fairly sure my dad (who was a toolmaker originally) used to use it to mean 1,000th of an inch. 

I've also heard it used as an abbreviation for 'million', but never millimeter by anyone who knows their stuff, as they know the term was reserved long ago in imperial days.