Gulp! No antifreeze in our Barrus Shire 1950

[PaulJ]

 

So now i'm confused again. Can you tell from the photograph of the engine i posted? As previously mentioned, the Barrus Shire we currently have isn't the original engine so i'm not sure what other changes may have been made. As a novice to marine engines i haven't a clue what a heat exchanger, mud box etc. look like. I'm taking it that the consensus is that the red wedge shape at the bottom right of the picture, with two pipes, one above the other, is a skin tank? I had a quick look an hour ago when i got back to the boat and couldn't see a bleed valve, but will have a closer look in daylight tomorrow.

 

I'll respond to other posts tomorrow. Right now, tea is just about ready and i want to settle down for that documentary about Bowie on BBC2.

 

Apologies-hadnt meant to confuse you -was trying to explain how a heat exchanged engine was different as you had asked :-) Have a look here- http://www.tb-training.co.uk/15cool.htm for a proper explanation . TB is a member here.

It is very hard to be 100% sure about what you are looking at from a photo. Who knows whats hidden from view sometimes :-D

What I can mainly see is-

1- what looks to be the unused mudbox to the top left of picture. So I assume you are not using any raw water (ie from canal /river) as there are no pipes coming out of it, just a presumably blanked off outlet

2-the exhaust manifold doesnt look big enough to be a heat exchanger and I cant see any other signs of one elsewhere

3-the pipe that goes from the thermostat on top of engine goes to what is hopefully a skin tank as does the bottom pipe.

 

You may well find there is no bleed valve on the tank itself - if memory serves me right the engine will self bleed through the small pipe that goes from thermostat housing to expansion tank. I would expect the bleed valve to be above the top hose on the tank as its the highest point. You may have to let the worst of the air out by undoing the jubilee clip on the top hose first though.

 

And for anyone else that has looked at the picture the OP put up- Do you not find it unusual that you cannot actually make out the skin tank??

[WotEver]

"And for anyone else that has looked at the picture the OP put up- Do you not find it unusual that you cannot actually make out the skin tank??"

 

I've just looked closely at it for the first time and I'm wondering if someone has fitted a skin tank externally?

 

The inner swim appears to be original so perhaps when the engine was changed it was simpler for them to fabricate one on the outside?

 

Not something I've heard of before (wouldn't it muck up the water flow?) but that's how it appears.

 

And no, there doesn't appear to be a bleed screw anywhere.

[MtB]

Should anyone here be buying the blue antifreeze, I discovered a slight 'gotcha' when I bought some last week.

 

I picked up a five litre container of blue antifreeze in Halfords priced a little less under £20, and fortunately I read the label. "Pre-diluted 50/50"!!!

 

So I went around the corner to an independent motor spares retailer and bought five litres of proper antifreeze for £1 less than the 2.5L of anti freeze mixed with 2.5L of water than Halfords were trying to flog me.

 

Mind you, it may have been pre-diluted with de-ionised water to be fair, but I don't remember the label mentioning this.

[PaulJ]

"And for anyone else that has looked at the picture the OP put up- Do you not find it unusual that you cannot actually make out the skin tank??"

 

I've just looked closely at it for the first time and I'm wondering if someone has fitted a skin tank externally?

 

The inner swim appears to be original so perhaps when the engine was changed it was simpler for them to fabricate one on the outside?

 

Not something I've heard of before (wouldn't it muck up the water flow?) but that's how it appears.

 

And no, there doesn't appear to be a bleed screw anywhere.

 

My thoughts exactly-maybe some pipes externally even ?

Sorry OP - dont mean to make it sound worse lol. Maybe worth getting some one local to have a look just to be sure..

[MtB]

Simon Wain constructed one skin tank about 30mm thick on the outside of the swim on the REGINALD.

 

No discernible effect on handling.

[reg]

I've just looked closely at it for the first time and I'm wondering if someone has fitted a skin tank externally?

The inner swim appears to be original so perhaps when the engine was changed it was simpler for them to fabricate one on the outside?

Not something I've heard of before (wouldn't it muck up the water flow?) but that's how it appears.

And no, there doesn't appear to be a bleed screw anywhere.

 

I have an external skin tank which was put in whilst the engine was in situ it looks much the same as the one in the picture.

I suspect that when the engine was changed a higher volume tank was required and placing it external is an easier option.

[WotEver]

I have an external skin tank which was put in whilst the engine was in situ it looks much the same as the one in the picture.

I suspect that when the engine was changed a higher volume tank was required and placing it external is an easier option.

Prior to the engine change I believe it was raw water cooled, so had no skin tank at all.

 

Simon Wain constructed one skin tank about 30mm thick on the outside of the swim on the REGINALD.

 

No discernible effect on handling.

Oh cool, so maybe I'm right then.

[Froggy]

"And for anyone else that has looked at the picture the OP put up- Do you not find it unusual that you cannot actually make out the skin tank??"

 

I've just looked closely at it for the first time and I'm wondering if someone has fitted a skin tank externally?

 

The inner swim appears to be original so perhaps when the engine was changed it was simpler for them to fabricate one on the outside?

 

Not something I've heard of before (wouldn't it muck up the water flow?) but that's how it appears.

 

And no, there doesn't appear to be a bleed screw anywhere.

 

You may be on to something here. When we had our boat hauled in to the K & A at Hilperton the guy in the office had been watching out of the window and when i went in to buy something from the chandlery he commented on something about the construction being unusual. It didn't mean much to me at the time and i had a lot of stuff on my mind so didn't pay much attention. However now, on reflection, I think it's quite possible he was commenting on the skin tank. And logically, he wouldn't have made such comment if what he was commenting on wasn't visible on the outside of the boat, such as an unusually placed skin tank. You will see in the photograph two pipes going into the blue painted steel wedge in the bottom right of the picture, which i assumed from earlier comments was the skin tank (not actually having a clue what one looks like!). So, assuming the skin tank is fitted externally, maybe there is no bleed valve and the engine self-bleeds as you suggest. I'm a little concerned here, because we have no temperature gauge to give advance warning if the engine is overheating, e.g. if there is any air in the system. If this is an external swim tank would i still drain the engine by removing the bottom pipe? I wonder why they may have changed the setup for the replacement engine. Perhaps the original setup contributed to the early failure of the engine.

 

EDITED TO CHANGE 'was visible' to 'wasn't visible'.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Froggy

[Arthur Brown]

In pic 1 there are clearly two rubber pipes leading to a swim shaped plate one up and one down so I suspect that either there is a skin tank on the starboard side, or the boat takes in raw water from the starboard side.

 

Personally I think it's good to look further, Is there a heat exchanger in the engine unit? is there a skin tank, could it be a really raw water cooled engine?

 

Til you know for sure then it's a good plan to run the engine daily to keep it just above freezing, or to install an electric heater. Does this engine have a position for an installable stud heater that actually goes into the sump oil to keep it warm? -it's more efficient to heat the engine directly than to heat the air near it.

 

Was the boat sold to you with any log books or drawings or description, does anything say in writing what cooling system is used.

 

ALL antifreeze is toxic to marine life so you do need to know where you are pouring it and disposing of the waste.

[PaulJ]

 

You may be on to something here. When we had our boat hauled in to the K & A at Hilperton the guy in the office had been watching out of the window and when i went in to buy something from the chandlery he commented on something about the construction being unusual. It didn't mean much to me at the time and i had a lot of stuff on my mind so didn't pay much attention. However now, on reflection, I think it's quite possible he was commenting on the skin tank. And logically, he wouldn't have made such comment if what he was commenting on was visible on the outside of the boat, such as an unusually placed skin tank. You will see in the photograph two pipes going into the blue painted steel wedge in the bottom right of the picture, which i assumed from earlier comments was the skin tank (not actually having a clue what one looks like!). So, assuming the skin tank is fitted externally, maybe there is no bleed valve and the engine self-bleeds as you suggests. I'm a little concerned here, because we have no temperature gauge to give advance warning if the engine is overheating, e.g. if there is any air in the system. If this is an external swim tank would i still drain the engine by removing the bottom pipe? I wonder why they may have changed the setup for the replacement engine. Perhaps the original setup contributed to the early failure of the engine.

Has the engine not got an instrument panel ? The 'basic' panel (no gauges) have a warning buzzer/light for oil and water temp.

Your tank will still drain from the bottom hose- if it doesnt stop running you will know it isnt a skin tank lol. As Reg said, it makes sense to put the tank on the outside if done when putting different engine in.

I would suggest once you have refilled to run the engine and keep checking the pipes , feel the tank etc for circulation. It has been a while since I last played with one of these engines- I do seem to recall a filler plug on top of the engine where I did the bulk of the filling from. Your emgine may be different and Im sure someone here can advise better than me on that..

[MtB]

I would say it can't be directly raw water cooled as the OP mentions the water being rust coloured. If the engine was cooled directly by canal water it would have been canal water coloured.

[Froggy]

In pic 1 there are clearly two rubber pipes leading to a swim shaped plate one up and one down so I suspect that either there is a skin tank on the starboard side, or the boat takes in raw water from the starboard side.

 

Personally I think it's good to look further, Is there a heat exchanger in the engine unit? is there a skin tank, could it be a really raw water cooled engine?

 

Til you know for sure then it's a good plan to run the engine daily to keep it just above freezing, or to install an electric heater. Does this engine have a position for an installable stud heater that actually goes into the sump oil to keep it warm? -it's more efficient to heat the engine directly than to heat the air near it.

 

Was the boat sold to you with any log books or drawings or description, does anything say in writing what cooling system is used.

 

ALL antifreeze is toxic to marine life so you do need to know where you are pouring it and disposing of the waste.

 

We have a manual, but unfortunately the engine has been replaced since then and WotEver reckons the mud box is now redundant. I don't know what a heat exchanger looks like, but if the tall metal structure on the left of the picture is the mudbox i can confirm that there is what looks like an inlet or outlet near the bottom which no longer has any piping attached to it.

[bizzard]

I would say it can't be directly raw water cooled as the OP mentions the water being rust coloured. If the engine was cooled directly by canal water it would have been canal water coloured.

Gadding about in the Harecastle or Worsely areas the water would be canal, rust coloured. And if the exhaust spat out boiled fish then that would prove it.

[Arthur Brown]

If your engine has a closed circuit of cooling water through engine ans skin tank it needs antifreeze and lots of it because of the volume of the coolant.

 

If it's got a heat exchanger built onto the engine then the engine coolant needs antifreeze but the raw water circuit cannot have antifreeze -it's just canal water.

 

It the engine swap used the same system as before then raw canal water can be passing through the engine and out again into the cut, this system cannot be antifreezed because it will flow into the cut, AND there is a risk to the engine if internal water freezes.

 

You really have to determine what your cooling system is.

[Froggy]

Here are two pictures of the boat as it was being craned in showing the starboard side where the pipes pass through the hull in the picture at the top of this thread. Do these suggest a separate skin tank, because i have no idea what it would look like?

[Froggy]

These hastily taken photos might also help, showing starboard and port sides of engine respectively.

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm leaning towards an 'external addition'

 

Look closely on the Stbd side between the rear anode and the prop - there looks to be a very 'thin' tank welded there - am I correct ?

[mross]

Yes, I too see a skin tank, about two inches wide. You could feel this if you put a stick in the water, especially when moored starboard ® side to.

Did you have a survey before you bought it? I think it would have been mentioned.

[Froggy]

I'm leaning towards an 'external addition'

 

Look closely on the Stbd side between the rear anode and the prop - there looks to be a very 'thin' tank welded there - am I correct ?

 

 

Yes, I too see a skin tank, about two inches wide. You could feel this if you put a stick in the water, especially when moored starboard ® side to.

Did you have a survey before you bought it? I think it would have been mentioned.

 

 

Thanks folks. I've just looked back at our survey and can now confirm that it is an externally fitted skin tank fitted on the starboard side. We have had a rethink now because the marina don't have any means of disposing of coolant, we need to take it to the local waste disposal facility. So we are now planning just to partly drain it so we can get enough antifreeze in to see us through the winter and then next autumn or perhaps when we get the boat out of the water for blacking we'll have the system flushed properly.

[Arthur Brown]

In the first pic you posted in this thread there is a black rubber hose running centre to right, that shows a green spiral band. IMO and only that! that hose is the top connection to a skin tank and the one below it is the other connection.

 

Do you run the engine often! It's likely that a daily engine run hour will keep it hot enough to prevent freezing in night frosts- OK not of it's -10 all day! 10 litres of fuel is a lot cheaper than a replacement engine!

[mross]

My local council will accept some hazardous waste....

 

"Antifreeze, brake fluid, car batteries, degreaser, engine oil

(maximum of 10 litres per household per six months)"

 

I'll split it between The council where I live and where the boat is.

 

Search site:hartlepool.gov.uk antifreeze but replace 'hartlepool.gov.uk' with your own council's web address. No space after the colon.

If you buy antfreeze from a garage or Halfords Autocentre, they might take your old stuff, particularly if you are a regular customer.

[WotEver]

We have had a rethink now because the marina don't have any means of disposing of coolant, we need to take it to the local waste disposal facility. So we are now planning just to partly drain it so we can get enough antifreeze in to see us through the winter and then next autumn or perhaps when we get the boat out of the water for blacking we'll have the system flushed properly.

There's a very good chance if you did that that the antifreeze wouldn't mix with the existing water. I suggest you scrounge a few empty 5l containers and drain it all.

[frangar]

When I enquired about disposing of antifreeze at our local tips I was told to chuck the full containers in the non recycling skip.....

 

Gareth

[matty40s]

Get some in there before next weekend.☺

[Froggy]

Has the engine not got an instrument panel ? The 'basic' panel (no gauges) have a warning buzzer/light for oil and water temp.

Your tank will still drain from the bottom hose- if it doesnt stop running you will know it isnt a skin tank lol. As Reg said, it makes sense to put the tank on the outside if done when putting different engine in.

I would suggest once you have refilled to run the engine and keep checking the pipes , feel the tank etc for circulation. It has been a while since I last played with one of these engines- I do seem to recall a filler plug on top of the engine where I did the bulk of the filling from. Your emgine may be different and Im sure someone here can advise better than me on that..

 

Yep, you are right, we have the basic instrument panel with no guages except the rev counter. The warning buzzer then presumably comes on if the engine overheats (and also the bulb, as long as it hasn't blown)? I am describing in a separate post below this how we eventually drained the coolant.

In the first pic you posted in this thread there is a black rubber hose running centre to right, that shows a green spiral band. IMO and only that! that hose is the top connection to a skin tank and the one below it is the other connection.

 

Do you run the engine often! It's likely that a daily engine run hour will keep it hot enough to prevent freezing in night frosts- OK not of it's -10 all day! 10 litres of fuel is a lot cheaper than a replacement engine!

 

We're not at the boat every day but during the cold snap last week i made sure i ran the engine just before nightfall.

 

There's a very good chance if you did that that the antifreeze wouldn't mix with the existing water. I suggest you scrounge a few empty 5l containers and drain it all.

 

Oops, worrying times then. We couldn't drain it all in the end (see post below). We did mix the stuff we added 50-50 though. Wouldn't the coolant eventually be pushed around the engine and mix?

Edited January 8, 2017 by Froggy