Don't arrive at Sharpness Lock without a CRT licence

[PaulG]

Glad to hear it.

 

So, when the lockkeeper at Sharpness says to me, hypothetically, I can't let you in because I can't accept your cash, and I say "I checked your website" and he says "the policy has changed", what is the next step?

Get on the phone to the local CRT office in Gloucester.

Tell them that one of their employees is putting the safety of your vessel and its occupants in danger.

[mayalld]

Glad to hear it.

 

So, when the lockkeeper at Sharpness says to me, hypothetically, I can't let you in because I can't accept your cash, and I say "I checked your website" and he says "the policy has changed", what is the next step?

 

1) Ask him if he is denying you safe haven.

2) Phone CRT

[Captain Pegg]

in an organisation like CRT cash is a very inefficient form of payment. I has to be collected, stored, transported, double-checked. Floats have to be provided. Compared to the convenience of any of the digital forms of payment the cost is immense.

Thank you hounddog for responding while I was otherwise engaged at work.

 

I was going to drop Athy a couple of links to explain but no need now ?

 

JP (or Jon or Captain Pegg but not Peggy)

Edited December 9, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[Athy]

Thank you hounddog for responding while I was otherwise engaged at work.

 

I was going to drop Athy a couple of links to explain but no need now

 

JP (or Jon or Captain Pegg but not Peggy)

I apologise. Your name reminds me of Dave Pegg of the band Fairport Convention, who is universally known as "Peggy". No offence intended.

For me, cash is the easiest and most convenient means of paying for something.

[Captain Pegg]

I apologise. Your name reminds me of Dave Pegg of the band Fairport Convention, who is universally known as "Peggy". No offence intended.

For me, cash is the easiest and most convenient means of paying for something.

Dave Pegg is my dad; Simon Pegg is my brother.

 

I have often been and still occasionally am called Peggy but I am not going to encourage it.

 

Cash may be most convenient for you but it isn't for the recipient and on the basis that I suspect the majority of folks making transactions would prefer an electronic method there comes a point where I think an organisation can say they will discontinue the use of cash. Obviously that wouldn't make sense if you were a shop but for CRT I think it's a fair decision on balance.

 

Except there is no suggestion here they are moving to electronic payment. But I must caveat that with the view that we don't categorically know what is and isn't the true picture here.

 

JP

[Alway Swilby]

On the subject of cash: this summer I wanted a pumpout card from the lockie at West Stockwith, "Only if you've got cash" says he, "we haven't got a card machine any morè" !

I'm pretty sure this was also the case at the Red Bull office too just recently.

[cuthound]

Agree, especially where safety is likely to be compromised. Updating a web site is not difficult; even I can do it.

The website may not need updating.

 

We first need to establish if the lock keeper is following policy or "engaged in a frolic own".

[thebfg]

Booking in for passage through a tidal lock is common policy not just to Sharpness.

But buying a license at the lock was also common policy.

[Guest]

The website may not need updating.

 

We first need to establish if the lock keeper is following policy or "engaged in a frolic own".

True enough, one of them is wrong.

[nebulae]

Can somebody remind me where the floating pontoon is OUTSIDE Sharpness Lock. If you watch a few of the posts of vessels coming into Sharpness,you can see that once you are level with the lock entrance on a rising tide,you are commited. The last time a couple of vessels missed the entrance they demolished the railway bridge? As the person in charge of the lock,I would be very nervous about placing myself liable to criminal charges,because my actions caused death.

[Roger Crown]

I have now had some email correspondence with Mr Lewis Kneale the Customer Operations Supervisor based at Sharpness Docks.

I have been assured that at no point would a member of the public be put in danger.

Apparently the new procedure was adopted on Monday morning, with the docks team being fully briefed at that time. It appears something may have got lost in the translation, CRT's stance is apparently very different from the version myself and the Pilot heard on Wednesday morning.

For clarity I am posting below the current procedure as laid out by CRT

The current procedure we have in place is;

1. Message on Pierhead answerphone where it is clearly stated vessels will not be allowed onto the canal without a licence. These can be purchased via web/phone.ect.

2. Vessels when booking will be asked for their licence number, where the team at sharpness will record the number along with the boat name, and index number (if present)

3. If however a boat comes down on a tide, without a licence they would be allowed into the port, and would be allowed into the lock, this is where they would be asked to purchase a licence through the following methods, call the Gloucester office, call the Boat Licencing Team or log onto the online system. If for any reason we needed to clear the lock we would safely moor them on CRT’s berth to allow the customer time to purchase the licence.

4. At this point if a boat refused to purchase a licence, in which they would require a valid boat safety certificate (unless exempt) and insurance to purchase, they would be asked to return to another port, when safely practicable to do so.

In a subsequent email Mr Kneale made the following comment.

As with any new procedure that is being put into place there is changeover period, in which there is a certain amount of familiarisation. I apologise for the misunderstanding but once again want to stress that no vessels, now or ever would be put at risk due to these new regulations. They have been conceived to prevent incidents occurring due to unsafe vessels entering the canal.

I have also pointed out to Mr Kneale this evening that the information on the CRT website does not concur with the above

Roger

[blackrose]

Can somebody remind me where the floating pontoon is OUTSIDE Sharpness Lock.

Inside the tidal basin as you approach the lock it's on the right (starboard) side. I had to moor there for 20 mins while waiting for the lock to open.

Edited December 9, 2016 by blackrose

[Graham Davis]

Can be seen here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Sharpness+Dock/@51.7176869,-2.4804023,248m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4871a30b07924795:0xc05e02f4074e004e!8m2!3d51.7241173!4d-2.4741635?hl=en

[Jerra]

Even if the OP had checked before he started, as you suggest, he would have found the following information for Sharpness Dock on the CRT website.

"We recommend you purchase licences on line, and in advance of your journey, to save time, however visiting craft may also pay by cash or cheque on arrival at the port."

 

I meant take that little device most people carry in their pocket and give somebody a ring. I find it is the best way to get upto date information.

[Chewbacka]

I meant take that little device most people carry in their pocket and give somebody a ring. I find it is the best way to get upto date information.

Had the skipper just googled about Sharpness and accepted advice on licensing from some random site or forum then they are being negligent, BUT if they go to the official web site for official advice then that is more than reasonable.

 

 

I find more and more that when I phone an organisation for advice I get -

 

1) We are very busy, but your call is important to us (but we have no intention of answering it within a reasonable time)

followed by

2) You are number xx in the queue.

3) Most questions can be answered by going to our website www..........................

Followed by

4) Please press 1 for.........................................

Followed by

5) All our agents are busy, please call later

6) They hang up on me

Edited December 10, 2016 by Chewbacka

[Jerra]

Had the skipper just googled about Sharpness and accepted advice on licensing from some random site or forum then they are being negligent, BUT if they go to the official web site for official advice then that is more than reasonable.

 

 

I find more and more that when I phone an organisation for advice I get -

 

1) We are very busy, but your call is important to us (but we have no intention of answering it within a reasonable time)

followed by

2) You are number xx in the queue.

3) Most questions can be answered by going to our website www..........................

Followed by

4) Please press 1 for.........................................

Followed by

5) All our agents are busy, please call later

6) They hang up on me

I have never had any of that on the occasions I have had to ring a lock.

[NigelMoore]

 

3. If however a boat comes down on a tide, without a licence they would be allowed into the port, and would be allowed into the lock, this is where they would be asked to purchase a licence through the following methods, call the Gloucester office, call the Boat Licencing Team or log onto the online system. If for any reason we needed to clear the lock we would safely moor them on CRT’s berth to allow the customer time to purchase the licence.

 

 

This is the absolutely correct response to the situation.

 

I was never able to pinpoint statute or case law on the subject of safe haven; it remains, however, sound and advisable custom to grant it, and refusal would seem to me to at least violate the underlying intent behind all regulations for giving assistance to boats in distress.

 

There is also the consideration that wherever the public right of navigation remains unmodified, both above and below a lock, it would in fact be a criminal offence to deny access to the relevant sheltered portion above a lock

 

Once upon a time BW even recognised the custom/requirement, and an incident is on record at Brentford, where a boat is noted as having been allowed through Thames Locks [as if they had a legal choice, but . . .] by way of being granted “haven”, due apparently to engine problems.

 

 

That boat was simultaneously (?) recorded as being subject to s.8 [again, illegally] but regardless of the misapprehension over the nature and extent of their control of these waters, the principle followed was the correct one. They allowed the boat entry under the circumstances even though believing at the time [?] that they had the right to demand a licence.

[hounddog]

 

 

There is also the consideration that wherever the public right of navigation remains unmodified, both above and below a lock, it would in fact be a criminal offence to deny access to the relevant sheltered portion above a lock

 

 

 

Sorry, Nigel I should know where to find this out but does this apply to Limehouse Basin (above the lock) and Sharpness Docks (above the lock)?

[NigelMoore]

Can't say as to Sharpness without looking into it; Limehouse Dock is the tail end of the Regents Canal and the Limehouse Cut from the Lea, so that any PRN's would have been statutory, hence abolished under the Transport Act 1968. I believe you would therefore need a pleasure boat licence to enter.

 

Back in 1958 the Lea as far as Old Ford Lock was, along with the Brent up to the Gauging Locks, one of the only two specific lengths of waterways specifically listed as being totally free from any charges. That is not quite the same as the PRN of course, but it is related to it. The 1971 Act changed that situation on the Lea, leaving the Brent as unique in the area. The PRN still subsists over the Lea as with all river navigations, it is just that it has been amended to the extent that CaRT can charge for PBC's once you bring your boat onto those waters, and the limit extends to the junction with the Thames.

 

You might be interested to look carefully at the early sixties Act enabling the Limehouse cut joining it to the Docks, for any further illumination, but I have no time for it currently.

[Geo]

I apologise. Your name reminds me of Dave Pegg of the band Fairport Convention, who is universally known as "Peggy". No offence intended.

For me, cash is the easiest and most convenient means of paying for something.

And the only thing that has to be accepted in any transaction.

[nebulae]

Many thanks for posting the Google view of the floating pontoon at Sharpness. .I dont think you can see it from the viewing area. I will have a look next time I go there. Is the Tidal Basin always open at the appropriate tide? I have watched shipping use the lock and Tidal Basin as one lock.! I would think that communication with the Pier Head would be adviseable as arrivals and departures of commercial shipping are not rare and are usualy posted in advance.This is mixing with realy big ships.