Don't arrive at Sharpness Lock without a CRT licence

[Guest]

Difference being you don't need a licence to enter those ports.

If the passage is really so dangerous then you would think that having your paperwork sorted and in order prior to setting off would be advantageous.

That is fair enoguh, but people can only prepare by being given the correct info in the first instance. If, as has been suggested, there is information to the contrary on the website etc., then that is disadvantageous. It is so easy to publish the correct info in this day and age.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Guest

[cheshire~rose]

Arriving yesterday morning at Sharpness from Portishead with the aid of one of the Gloucester Pilots we were greeted by the Lockie who announced that if we didn't have a CRT licence he can no longer provide a short term licence because they are no longer allowed to handle money and everything must be done on-line. He further stated that boats would be turned around and sent back down the estuary.

 

 

 

 

Once again I am outraged by the actions of CRT. Not fit for purpose.

 

 

 

 

I see a lot of people here getting very hot under the collar about the suposed "actions" of CRT with regard to this matter.

 

I hear and understand that a return journey could put a boater in danger but if we return to the OP we read that the Lockie stated boats would be turned around.

 

Does anyone have any knowledge of any boats that HAVE been turned around?

 

I read into this that a lockeeper is (rightfully) concerned about the situation that has developed because they can no longer take cash payments. In reality I would imagine a large number of people making this trip would have a smart phone so they can simply buy the required licence when they rock up at the lock. If they don't then I suspect there might be somebody around (potentially even the lock keeper!) who has access to the internet and would be willing to facilitate it for the boaters. While I agree that it should not be the responsibilty of the Lock Keeper to use his own personal data allowance to facilitate it my thought is that in reality this is what would happen.

 

Card payments are easy to take - but you need an internet connection to be able to do it and as it seems that is what is lacking here it is no as easy as many people might think.

 

I suspect the lock keeper is very worried about the potential danger he is being asked to put boats into and is doing a bit of sabre rattling to make sure that boaters point out the error of CRT's ways

[Dave_P]

Also, it may be hard for some on here to believe, but many, many boaters do not have or do not use the internet. It's all very well to say they should do, but that's no reason to allow them to drown in the Severn Estuary.

 

 

 

 

I see a lot of people here getting very hot under the collar about the suposed "actions" of CRT with regard to this matter.

 

I hear and understand that a return journey could put a boater in danger but if we return to the OP we read that the Lockie stated boats would be turned around.

 

Does anyone have any knowledge of any boats that HAVE been turned around?

 

I read into this that a lockeeper is (rightfully) concerned about the situation that has developed because they can no longer take cash payments. In reality I would imagine a large number of people making this trip would have a smart phone so they can simply buy the required licence when they rock up at the lock. If they don't then I suspect there might be somebody around (potentially even the lock keeper!) who has access to the internet and would be willing to facilitate it for the boaters. While I agree that it should not be the responsibilty of the Lock Keeper to use his own personal data allowance to facilitate it my thought is that in reality this is what would happen.

 

Card payments are easy to take - but you need an internet connection to be able to do it and as it seems that is what is lacking here it is no as easy as many people might think.

 

I suspect the lock keeper is very worried about the potential danger he is being asked to put boats into and is doing a bit of sabre rattling to make sure that boaters point out the error of CRT's ways

Is that a climb-down?

[Guest]

Fair point, not everybody has a smart phone/wireless router etc on board.

[ditchcrawler]

Instead of moaning and groaning and talking about maybe's why don't one of you contact the local waterways manager for comment and then discuss it?

And if they agree they were wrong then it will ruin the thread and we can't all moan how crap they are.

[WotEver]

And if they agree they were wrong then it will ruin the thread and we can't all moan how crap they are.

 

That'd be just typical of them to spoil our fun.

[Naughty Cal]

Fair point, not everybody has a smart phone/wireless router etc on board.

They could always do things the old fashioned way and phone CRT for a licence.

 

Or are we saying that people don't have access to phones also?

Boater has done the passage many times. Good for him.

Boater has always purchased licence at Sharpness on arrival. Good for him.

Boater checks the CRT website and continues as normal. Does he expect a gold star.

Boater is denied access. Boater can buy a licence online or over the phone and get access.

 

What part of this cant you understand???

Yes CRT should update the website sooner rather then later but the onus is on the boater to ensure that they have correct and up to date information prior to setting off on their trip.

[Dave_P]

Yes CRT should update the website sooner rather then later but the onus is on the boater to ensure that they have correct and up to date information prior to setting off on their trip.

What? So the boater checks the website, sees that a license can be bought at Sharpness and then psychically determines that they cannot actually do this, and buys their licence in advance? Sounds like a truly miraculous system!

Edited December 9, 2016 by Dave_P

[PaulG]

They could always do things the old fashioned way and phone CRT for a licence.

 

Or are we saying that people don't have access to phones also?

Yes CRT should update the website sooner rather then later but the onus is on the boater to ensure that they have correct and up to date information prior to setting off on their trip.

Sorry, - completely and utterly wrong.

As the navigation authority the onus is on CRT to ensure that the information that they publish is correct and current.

How is a boater supposed to know if the published CRT information is correct or not?

[matty40s]

I'm more suprised that Phyllis thinks the boater is a him???

[Naughty Cal]

Sorry, - completely and utterly wrong.

As the navigation authority the onus is on CRT to ensure that the information that they publish is correct and current.

How is a boater supposed to know if the published CRT information is correct or not?

By checking when they ring to book passage?

 

"All leisure craft passage should be booked at least 24 hours in advance to ensure the lock is available. This can be done by ringing the Pier Head".

I'm more suprised that Phyllis thinks the boater is a him???

It has to be a him. Only a him would be assuming that because they have always done something one way then that is the right way to do it now.

[mayalld]

Arriving yesterday morning at Sharpness from Portishead with the aid of one of the Gloucester Pilots we were greeted by the Lockie who announced that if we didn't have a CRT licence he can no longer provide a short term licence because they are no longer allowed to handle money and everything must be done on-line. He further stated that boats would be turned around and sent back down the estuary.

Our pilot was a bit taken aback by the news and confirmed that the Pilots would be adding the stipulation of a CRT licence to their pre voyage conditions.

 

This new procedure instigated by someone sitting in an office has the potential to endanger life, particularly for narrowboat crew. It is not illegal to travel from Bristol/Portishead without a pilot and every year many craft do go it alone.

Ideally the transit needs to be arranged so that the wind direction is with the tide, the pilots certainly wouldn't entertain transit with wind against tide.

 

If boats are turned at Sharpness on the whim of CRT then the consequences could be extremely dangerous. A well planned trip up stream could turn out to be disastrous when forced to go downstream with the wind now being against the ebbing tide.

 

We could quite easily have been sent back, our new (to us) boat had been off CRT waters for a while and not licensed with them, fortunately we renewed online before leaving Bristol because we wanted a full licence knowing, or thinking we knew that Sharpness could only supply a short term licence.

 

Just to add, the CRT lockies were not happy with the situation.

 

Roger

 

Edited to note a copy sent to Richard Parry

How sure are we as to what the ACTUAL policy is?

 

Is this actually what CRT say, or an interpretation of it by a lockie who doesn't like the new rules?

 

The legal position was mentioned.

 

The right to safe haven for the occupants, but not the vessel , is customary international maritime law.

 

In UK law, the boater is not a customer (they have no licence, and the lock keeper states an inability to issue one), so there is no immediate duty of care that stems from that relationship.

 

I suspect, however, that as the lockie has a function to offer advice to boaters about the advisability of a tidal passage, he will have a duty NOT to send a boater away if he would have advised against passage for a boater coming out of the docks

[Paul C]

Just one point to add to the mix. I know for a fact that last year someone was refused entry to Limehouse because they didn't have the paperwork for their CRT license. Although they were legally licensed the lock keeper refused to check.

 

This despite the fact that they had children on board - not that this makes a legal difference but it seems to me to be an indicator of an 'us and them' culture and a gung-ho attitude to basic principles of safety and humanity.

 

Surprised? No.

 

Nasty little country.

 

May I ask, was the licence on display on both sides of the boat?

[PaulG]

By checking when they ring to book passage?

 

"All leisure craft passage should be booked at least 24 hours in advance to ensure the lock is available. This can be done by ringing the Pier Head".

Are you sure that that fact is correct?

Surely, like the OP, you are just assuming that it is correct because it is current information published on the CRT website...

[Dave_P]

Are you sure that that fact is correct?

Surely, like the OP, you are just assuming that it is correct because it is current information published on the CRT website...

I smiled at the irony too!

[Naughty Cal]

Booking in for passage through a tidal lock is common policy not just to Sharpness.

[WotEver]

Booking in for passage through a tidal lock is common policy not just to Sharpness.

 

How do you know?

[PaulG]

Booking in for passage through a tidal lock is common policy not just to Sharpness.

S'funny - I thought your point was that the boater was responsible for checking facts, rather than relying on vague concepts like "common policy"...

[matty40s]

I didn't book through Torksey or Cromwell this September....

[hounddog]

But, Peggy, what is difficult about cash payment?

 

in an organisation like CRT cash is a very inefficient form of payment. I has to be collected, stored, transported, double-checked. Floats have to be provided. Compared to the convenience of any of the digital forms of payment the cost is immense.

[Naughty Cal]

I didn't book through Torksey or Cromwell this September....

Just because you didn't that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

You should give at least 24 hours notice of your intended passage.

[WotEver]

 

in an organisation like CRT cash is a very inefficient form of payment. I has to be collected, stored, transported, double-checked. Floats have to be provided. Compared to the convenience of any of the digital forms of payment the cost is immense.

 

The first time I visited the USA was in '88. At that time in the UK very few people had credit cards. I didn't have one either. When we went to hire a car the question "And what major credit card do you have sir?" was met with "I have lots of cash?". This created many long and convoluted telephone conversations after which they very reluctantly took (I think) $500 as a deposit (we had plenty more specifically for that purpose). They weren't geared up for cash at all and it was apparently the first time the agent had ever heard of anyone paying for the hire and deposit without a card. I'm sure that today it would be completely impossible.

Just because you didn't that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

You should give at least 24 hours notice of your intended passage.

 

How do you know?

[matty40s]

Just because you didn't that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

You should give at least 24 hours notice of your intended passage.

Where's that?? On the very accurate and flawless CRT website??

[hounddog]

Difference being you don't need a licence to enter those ports.

 

Of course you do, don't be daft. They let you stay there for free do they? Wonderful.

Fair point, not everybody has a smart phone/wireless router etc on board.

 

I'm impressed that with a forum name Cheshire Rose that she knows the signal coverage at Sharpness docks (below the lock) is good enough for the access needed.

 

May I ask, was the licence on display on both sides of the boat?

 

No, as is CRT's current advice (yes, I know that is in defiance of the law but this is CRT) the issue being that an official of CRT refused to check CRT's records and thus placed a boat, and people's lives, in danger.

 

I can see that the concept of duty of care has disappeared in your mind probably at the same time as Thatcher's ascendency of the Principle of Me First.

 

I suppose you would be happy in your conscience that your actions in this situation put lives in danger. After all, they should have display the license. Remind me, where in the byelaws does it say the penalty for breach is death?

[PaulG]

Booking in for passage through a tidal lock is common policy not just to Sharpness.

Wrong again.

 

The requirement for booking tidal locks varies considerably, even on the same waterway.

Here's some information for CRT locks on the Thames:

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/our-regions/london-waterways/locks-to-the-river-thames

 

Two locks need booking all the time.

One only needs booking "out of hours".

 

Of course, this information may not be correct as it is published on the CRT website.