Tax inspectors on Narrowboats??

[valrene9600]

Recently I was buying diesel at a fairly well known pit stop on the T&M and as usual a conversation ensued about the split between domestic/propulsion. The owner of the establishment advised that nowadays they do not accept any declaration that doesn't include an element of propulsion. My usual argument, that because it is a "self" declaration the dispenser is absolved from any responsibility was roundly dismissed because, apparently, government inspectors are getting "really hot" on suppliers of red diesel on canals, to the extent that they now travel around incognito on narrowboats in an attempt to catch out "unscrupulous" suppliers.

 

At first I thought this was a wind up but I don't think so. The owner claimed to have served fuel to one of these covert inspectors ("It was obvious who they were..").

 

I would have though, post EU referendum, that enforcement of the fuel duty policy on canals would be way down the list of priorities so, - paranoia? or is there any other evidence of a crack down?

 

Perhaps this might fit into the Friday joke thread.

Checking on boat yards I can accept but not not in this way.

Edited October 22, 2016 by valrene9600

[BruceinSanity]

ooh that's interesting, i've heard of 2 boaters getting a rebate (for red inadvertently purchased at 60/40) They had to fill in a paper form

Was this recently or when the scheme was newish?

 

I'd expect that answer for someone trying to claim for white they put in a boat though

 

It was in the early days, true. I've since avoided suppliers who use a fixed declaration.

[Dave_P]

he same is true of other goverment departments systems and of course none of them can interface with each other. In fact systems within the same department rarely exchange data despite departments spending millions trying to integrate them. Sorry, drifted off topic there.

I work for a Local Authority and our system can't even interface with the office next door. Actually, scratch that, our system frequently can't even interface with itself.

Twin Screw Diesel Yacht

 

CT

So that's what they get up to on those diesel yachts!

[Dave_P]

Mention has been made of it being the purchasers responsibility to declare the split. - I used to work at a boatyard and when the diesel split was introduced people said HMRC would be unlikely to check. We sold quite a lot of diesel and over about 6 years or so, were visited twice by HMRC who checked records and noted several people who had declared 0% propulsion. Several people tried this and argued we had no right to demand a propulsion persentage but HMRC had advised that if we were asked to accept 0% and the tank being filled was obviously for the engine that we would be guilty of aiding an attempt to defraud them.

Interesting. What was the outcome of the prosecution then?

[Athy]

Recently we stopped for diesel and gas at a certain hire base on the north oxford. After a half hour wait, all cool and friendly they got around to us. "Hope you don't want gas, we're out" fair enough but desperate for fuel I say, "no probs" say they.

 

17l later, "oh dear, we're not doing very well here, we're out of diesel too, what's your dec.?"

 

I'll give them 10pc says I

 

"Noo can do mate. 60/40 here"

 

For 17 bloody litres! Anyway after much argument she saying the tax boys were insisting they had to do that and me saying what I understand to be the accepted format, I chucked the few quid at her for 80/20 and got told to never return!

 

Oh well, life goes on

Was it perhaps adjacent to Newbold Tunnel? We found one member of staff there very abrasive when we called in for gas this summer.

[Athy]

 

The effectiveness is not achieved in the 'sum recovered' but the publicity it generates and the subsequent level of 'fear'.

 

Some years ago a friend (self-employed roofer) came under suspicion of 'taking undeclared cash' (cash in hand jobs), he obviously denied it and refused to pay the estimated £15000 that the tax-man suggested he had under paid by.

 

For almost 9 months a 'team' of several investigators kept his house under surveillance, followed his children to school, followed his wife shopping, etc etc.

 

At the end of the 9 months they suggested to him that he could not afford his lifestyle on the earnings he was declaring and they produced, copies of receipts from shops where his wife had purchased food, clothes etc, (100s of receipts), they told him how much the 'kids' spent in the shops on their way to school, they told him what TV etc he had, they told him what Sky 'package' he had.

 

After much negotiation he offered them £3000, they counter claimed at £5000 and it was all settled.

 

Did the £5000 cover even a fraction of the costs of a 'team' (of maybe 4 or 5 people) for 9 months - of course it didn't.

What it did achieve was a knowledge amongst the 'self employed' (and others) of what can happen and, maybe, stopped a few other 'cash jobs'.

This is utterly disgraceful behaviour. especially strangers routinely following their children to school.

Did they not notice that these inestimable vultures were following in their footsteps? Obviously not, as they would have phoned the police if they had done so. This family was subjected to totally unacceptable harassment - if they had noticed these unwholesome people shadowing them, they should have contacted the police as a matter of urgency.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Athy

[Jerra]

This is utterly disgraceful behaviour. especially strangers routinely following their children to school.

Did they not notice that these inestimable vultures were following in their footsteps? Obviously not, as they would have phoned the police if they had done so. This family was subjected to totally unacceptable harassment - if they had noticed these unwholesome people shadowing them, they should have contacted the police as a matter of urgency.

I was thinking I would have been reporting it as stalking as well, however if they didn't notice they couldn't.

 

I am surprised they managed to find out how much the kids were spending without drawing attention to themselves.

[Athy]

I was thinking I would have been reporting it as stalking as well, however if they didn't notice they couldn't.

 

I am surprised they managed to find out how much the kids were spending without drawing attention to themselves.

That was precisely one of my thoughts. Hulahoopgate, eh?

[Laurie Booth]

 

The effectiveness is not achieved in the 'sum recovered' but the publicity it generates and the subsequent level of 'fear'.

 

Some years ago a friend (self-employed roofer) came under suspicion of 'taking undeclared cash' (cash in hand jobs), he obviously denied it and refused to pay the estimated £15000 that the tax-man suggested he had under paid by.

 

For almost 9 months a 'team' of several investigators kept his house under surveillance, followed his children to school, followed his wife shopping, etc etc.

 

At the end of the 9 months they suggested to him that he could not afford his lifestyle on the earnings he was declaring and they produced, copies of receipts from shops where his wife had purchased food, clothes etc, (100s of receipts), they told him how much the 'kids' spent in the shops on their way to school, they told him what TV etc he had, they told him what Sky 'package' he had.

 

After much negotiation he offered them £3000, they counter claimed at £5000 and it was all settled.

 

Did the £5000 cover even a fraction of the costs of a 'team' (of maybe 4 or 5 people) for 9 months - of course it didn't.

What it did achieve was a knowledge amongst the 'self employed' (and others) of what can happen and, maybe, stopped a few other 'cash jobs'.

A nice story, I'm sure you are retelling it as it was told to you. Very unlikely to be true about following children.

[Alan de Enfield]

He asked the 'Revenue' how they obtained the 'receipts' and information as to the kids 'spending' and they told him that the went into the various shops and 'used their powers' to demand copies of the till receipts, similarly in the 'sweet shops' they asked what the 'kids' had purchased.

 

Yes it was 'told to me' but we were 'very close' with our families spending virtually every weekend together (we had adjacent caravans on Anglesey) boating, sea fishing, eating out etc etc.

Maybe he 'exaggerated' the story a bit - who knows - but even if 75% of it was true it was still a very intrusive experience.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Neil Walker]

Was it perhaps adjacent to Newbold Tunnel? We found one member of staff there very abrasive when we called in for gas this summer.

A little further north, must be summit in the water round these parts! I must say I try and use Rick on Auruiga round these parts, his abrasive I can handle! ;-)

[Athy]

A little further north, must be summit in the water round these parts! I must say I try and use Rick on Auruiga round these parts, his abrasive I can handle! ;-)

That's the Auriga which moors at Alvecote Marina next to its recently-acquired (but now colour-matched) butty, is it not?We moored next to Rick a couple of times on our travels, had a few chats with him and found him far from abrasive, a most friendly fellow in fact. The most "abrasive" thing about him is the exhaust bark of his Lister - he told us that he had modified or removed the silencer to make it louder so that customers would hear him coming, just as some coal boats ring a bell to announce their approach.

 

We would have bought our new bottle of gas from him, but he didn't have a gas key with him and neither did we have one with us.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Athy

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

We would have bought our new bottle of gas from him, but he didn't have a gas key with him and neither did we have one with us.

 

We don't use a 'gas-key' but find that either 'mole-grips' or an adjustable spanner both tend to work quite well.

[Athy]

 

We don't use a 'gas-key' but find that either 'mole-grips' or an adjustable spanner both tend to work quite well.

We do have a couple of spanners on the boat but neither would fit.

I note that you apostrophised 'gas-key'. Is that not an acceptable term for such a spanner, in the same way that a windless can also be called a "lock-key"?

[Sir Percy]

Just consider the cost effectiveness of such an exercise - the potential duty recovered compared to the cost in salaries, boat etc. In the present, cash starved, HMRC no one would authorise such an exercise.

 

Before the unification of tax and VAT, the Vatmen were more adventurous than the revenue (test purchases etc) but even then, I doubt something like this would have taken place.

 

There is no chance in the present economic climate.

 

In my opinion of course.

 

Search for the terms 'HMRC' and 'Connect'.

example result:http://www.3wisebears.co.uk/hmrcs-connect-what-does-it-mean-for-you/

 

and 'HMRC' and 'RDCO' (RDCO stands for Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils)

example result: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130127154304/http:/customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&columns=1&id=LIB_INFOS_OILS_RDCO

 

HMRC have made considerable investment in a system which brings together information from a wide scope of sources.

 

The Returns form https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/374329/ho5.pdf

doesn't cover split declarations. This information is focused on the supplier and not the consumer.

 

On the other point regarding 'tax inspectors' going out and about, I remember an HMRC person (can't remember what her title was) who used to tell of going to car boot sales and noting down trade details off the side of vans she thought dodgy.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Sir Percy

[Neil Walker]

That's the Auriga which moors at Alvecote Marina next to its recently-acquired (but now colour-matched) butty, is it not?We moored next to Rick a couple of times on our travels, had a few chats with him and found him far from abrasive, a most friendly fellow in fact. The most "abrasive" thing about him is the exhaust bark of his Lister - he told us that he had modified or removed the silencer to make it louder so that customers would hear him coming, just as some coal boats ring a bell to announce their approach.

 

We would have bought our new bottle of gas from him, but he didn't have a gas key with him and neither did we have one with us.

That's the gent. My abrasive comment was very tounge in cheek! He is a top man. Just got gas and diesel off him this morning, his lister roused the neighbourhood admirably! :-)

[MtB]

We do have a couple of spanners on the boat but neither would fit.

I note that you apostrophised 'gas-key'. Is that not an acceptable term for such a spanner, in the same way that a windless can also be called a "lock-key"?

 

 

I too was wondering what a 'gas key' might be. It is no more correct a term for a spanner than 'lock key' is for a windlass.

 

Have you considered adopting the recent fashion for calling lock gates 'lock doors' too?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

I too was wondering what a 'gas key' might be. It is no more correct a term for a spanner than 'lock key' is for a windlass.

 

 

 

 

I must admit to having made the assumption that 'Athy' did not mean the key needed to unlock his gas locker, and actually meant the spanner shaped device used to disconnect the fitting from the cylinder.

[carlt]

Have you considered adopting the recent fashion for calling lock gates 'lock doors' too?

 

Or mix and match like the IWA do...

• Going Up

  Close all gates. Ensure top paddles shut.

  Open Bottom paddles to empty lock

  Open doors and enter.

  Close doors and bottom paddles

  Open top paddles to fill lock

  As the boat rises, ensure that the bow does not snag on the forward lock gate

  Open top gates and exit

[StephenA]

 

I must admit to having made the assumption that 'Athy' did not mean the key needed to unlock his gas locker, and actually meant the spanner shaped device used to disconnect the fitting from the cylinder.

 

Our "spanner shaped device" is a genuine Calor spanner.....

[Athy]

 

 

I too was wondering what a 'gas key' might be. It is no more correct a term for a spanner than 'lock key' is for a windlass.

 

 

So, it is correct, then?

 

I must admit to having made the assumption that 'Athy' did not mean the key needed to unlock his gas locker, and actually meant the spanner shaped device used to disconnect the fitting from the cylinder.

Yes, that's exactly what he meant.

[Neil2]

I met a guy on the T&M who kept referring to locks as "lifts". When I eventually worked out what he was on about and challenged him on his use of the term, he retorted that he had been boating all his life and where he came from (Wigan) it's a commonly used word for locks. I think it's a load of baloney but Lancastrians do have odd words that the rest of the country don't understand eg a "Brew" is apparently not a pot of tea but a steep hill, and a "Cake" could be a bread roll or a pie. For goodness' sake...

[Slim]

I've no idea how HMRC came up with 60/40 but remember it's not just liveaboard narrowboaters who the scheme applies to. It also applies to leisure boaters, people with speedboats etc etc who *should* be declaring a higher propulsion percentage if that is applicable

Wasn't the 60/40 split the suggestion from some boating type group? In all honesty when all this kicked off the revenue were at pains to stress that it was only a starting point.

 

 

Frank

[carlt]

I met a guy on the T&M who kept referring to locks as "lifts".

In Yorkshire back when I was a lad they were called "pens" and operating them was "penning up" or "penning down".

[Alan de Enfield]

In Yorkshire back when I was a lad they were called "pens" and operating them was "penning up" or "penning down".

 

It is 'penning' on the River Trent, you call the lockie on the VHF and ask him to 'pen you down' (or up)