Correct lettering for new cloths - GUCC Co

[Leo No2]

Sculptor is about to receive a new set of cloths. We'd like to letter them in the correct style for the Austerity paint scheme (Maroon/Blue) she has. I need to make a proposal to CRT Mueums as to how it should be done and for the life of me I cannot find an image that supports what I think we want to do.

The options are:

• Do nothing at all to the cloths - I think that would be a shame but it may be correct
• Gand Union Canal Carrying Co Ltd in 'circular' text with the fleet no (82) in the middle and the last docking date (in the format MM/YY) in the corner of each cloth
• GUCC Co Ltd in 'circular' text with the fleet no (82) in the middle and the last docking date (in the format MM/YY) in the corner of each cloth

I think we should opt for the last suggestion but the important consideration is that our proposal to CRT is correct.

I would welcome any images that support any of the proposals above (and anything that may be historically correct but not in the proposals) and anything that we need to consider.

We feel the cloths need to be lettered because Sculptor is, in the main, the first thing that visitors to Stoke Bruerne see when they park in the museum car park and we'd like to have something that's historically correct and gives a bit of visual impact.

My thanks in advance for any help.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Leo No2

[Tim Lewis]

Sculptor is about to receive a new set of cloths. We'd like to letter them in the correct style for the Austerity paint scheme (Maroon/Blue) she has. I need to make a proposal to CRT Mueums as to how it should be done and for the life of me I cannot find an image that supports what I think we want to do.

 

The options are:

• Do nothing at all to the cloths - I think that would be a shame but it may be correct
• Gand Union Canal Carrying Co Ltd in 'circular' text with the fleet no (82) in the middle and the last docking date (in the format MM/YY) in the corner of each cloth
• GUCC Co Ltd in 'circular' text with the fleet no (82) in the middle and the last docking date (in the format MM/YY) in the corner of each cloth

I think we should opt for the last suggestion but the important consideration is that our proposal to CRT is correct.

 

I would welcome any images that support any of the proposals above (and anything that may be historically correct but not in the proposals) and anything that we need to consider.

 

We feel the cloths need to be lettered because Sculptor is, in the main, the first thing that visitors to Stoke Bruerne see when they park in the museum car park and we'd like to have something that's historically correct and gives a bit of visual impact.

 

My thanks in advance for any help.

 

This Photo from the Fulbourne archive is of GU boats in Sept 1943. From 'Life' magazine

 

Tim

[Laurence Hogg]

I have searched our archive too and must agree with Tim, the earlier "Wartime" livery seems to have the cloths as described, however later WW2 shots show plain unlettered cloths. None show the large GUCCCo letters. Hope this helps.

[Leo No2]

Thank you to both Tim and Laurence - your knowledge is gratefully received.

[pete harrison]

I do not think there is a straight forward answer to the question of the lettering on cloths in relation to the wartime 'austerity' livery. As with most questions of livery and lettering there were considerable variations, and the only way to be sure of recreating any one boat as being historically correct is to base the modern interpretation on period photographs of that boat (or one of similar type).

 

My view is that cloths would not be replaced as a matter of course during a docking but would be replaced as required, meaning that there could be any combination of livery and lettering on the cloths. Because of this I have always considered the date on each cloth to be when the cloths were made / lettered rather than the date that the boat was docked.

 

The docking date for a G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. boat is usually - but not always - lettered on the cabin side, in the formation of ??/?? (month / year).

[Leo No2]

Thanks Pete.

 

I have found this image - http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/galleries/photographers?photographer=a.+r.+coster

[pete harrison]

Thanks Pete.

 

I have found this image - http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/galleries/photographers?photographer=a.+r.+coster

An that photograph will give some historical credence, but I bet another photograph can be found showing something different.

[Leo No2]

An that photograph will give some historical credence, but I bet another photograph can be found showing something different.

 

But at least I have tried to get it right!!

[David Mack]

My view is that cloths would not be replaced as a matter of course during a docking but would be replaced as required...

And similarly, I presume that the boats were repainted into the wartime livery as and when they were docked. Repainting the entire fleet in a complete new livery on the outbreak of war would hardly have been consistent with the 'austerity' approach!

[pete harrison]

 

But at least I have tried to get it right!!

And that is all you can do.

 

This photograph does demonstrate the differences with the wartime 'austerity' livery as the motor has a full white frame / border between the red and blue whereas the butty has a single white line.

 

The only thing that is black and white is the photographs.

And similarly, I presume that the boats were repainted into the wartime livery as and when they were docked. Repainting the entire fleet in a complete new livery on the outbreak of war would hardly have been consistent with the 'austerity' approach!

Correct, and some G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. narrow boats were not painted into the wartime 'austerity' livery at all.

Edited October 8, 2015 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Pete.

 

I have found this image - http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/galleries/photographers?photographer=a.+r.+coster

 

The pair to that photograph is interesting, because it shows a pair of GUCCCo loaded boats where the motor (presumably a "Town") doesn't have even the side cloths up, but the "Star" butty is fully clothed. You sometimes see pictures where a motor is unsheeted, but the lower sided butty has side sheets up, (e.g. the Blue Line "Town" class motor / Barlows butty pairings) because the butty may get water over the gunwales, but the fully clothed butty here suggests to me it may be carrying a quite different lad from the motor. How usual was this for GUCCCo boats, I wonder?

 

Linky

 

Also evident here is a motor with the offset headlight, but a butty with one in the centre.

[furnessvale]

 

but the fully clothed butty here suggests to me it may be carrying a quite different lad from the motor. How usual was this for GUCCCo boats, I wonder?

 

Linky

 

 

I know I have one of those heavy arsed Joshers, but I have records of Badger and Northwich carrying a different product on each boat in the North West, so I see no reason why the South East should be any different.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[alan_fincher]

I know I have one of those heavy arsed Joshers, but I have records of Badger and Northwich carrying a different product on each boat in the North West, so I see no reason why the South East should be any different.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

I kind of had the impression that FMC tended to carry mixed loads far more often than the GUCCCo.

 

Though quite where I have got that impression from now, I can't remember!

[Laurence Hogg]

Thanks Pete.

 

I have found this image - http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/galleries/photographers?photographer=a.+r.+coster

A good well detailed find.

[pete harrison]

I have a G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. fleet list dated 14 September 1944 (14 days before the above photograph is dated) that lists SATELLITE as being paired with BIRMINGHAM with the steerer as N. Morris.

 

The Morris family had transferred to the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd.'s BIRMINGHAM and SATELLITE when the Bedworth based branch of E.C.C.Co. Ltd. was wound up in March 1944. Under the E.C.C.Co. Ltd. the Morris family had charge of the pair THE KING and THELMA.

[junior]

Thanks Pete.

 

I have found this image - http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/galleries/photographers?photographer=a.+r.+coster

Some great photos on that link, good find. I particularly like the 7 'Kings' outside a MPD somewhere.

[Pluto]

These notes are from the Lancashire Canal Transport part of the Canal Transport material in the Waterways Archive. The first suggests that there was one year to 18 months between each dressing of a set of cloths. The second is the invoice for purchase of new sets, with each item in a set being numbered consecutively. Photos of Canal Transport boats suggests that each set of eleven covers had a single number for the whole set, rather than consecutive ones.

 

[Leo No2]

I wish they were still £25.16s.0d - sadly they are not!

[RLWP]

Being of good quality and useful for other things, railway wagon cloths were marked with the owning company, given a registration number and tracked from wagon to wagon.

 

Richard

[koukouvagia]

I wish they were still £25.16s.0d - sadly they are not!

Mind you, if you allow for inflation since 1928, that 25 quid is today's equivalent of over £1400!

[Leo No2]

Mind you, if you allow for inflation since 1928, that 25 quid is today's equivalent of over £1400!

 

In which case that's about right (sadly). Thanks for your e-mail this morning much appreciated.

[archie57]

 

The pair to that photograph is interesting, because it shows a pair of GUCCCo loaded boats where the motor (presumably a "Town") doesn't have even the side cloths up, but the "Star" butty is fully clothed. You sometimes see pictures where a motor is unsheeted, but the lower sided butty has side sheets up, (e.g. the Blue Line "Town" class motor / Barlows butty pairings) because the butty may get water over the gunwales, but the fully clothed butty here suggests to me it may be carrying a quite different lad from the motor. How usual was this for GUCCCo boats, I wonder?

 

Linky

 

Also evident here is a motor with the offset headlight, but a butty with one in the centre.

It was the practice for some people carrying certain things eg steel, to just lay the topcloths over the cargo in the boat's bottom, so a big motor might appear not clothed up whereas the little butty, having the sidecloths up anyway, would have the top cloths put on as normal

[archie57]

This is a copyright Phil Garrett picture I believe, and you can just glimpse the lettering on the cloths covering the load in the boat's bottom. Unusually the planks are on the wrong side!

Edited October 8, 2015 by archie57

[Leo No2]

I think I may have found a good answer from 'The George and The Mary'. Grateful for any comments though.

[Laurence Hogg]

I think I may have found a good answer from 'The George and The Mary'. Grateful for any comments though.

That publicity photo is taken far too early to use. Most of the boats are identifiable on the full scale image but all suggest a time of around the mid thirties.

 

The best shot from the series this comes from is the gauging pictures, lettering is very clear but not the same as later.