Is time up for diesel engines?

[Ricco1]

That is serious money, but then lots of older bikes are bringing big money. Even bikes that I would have bought as a go to work hack such as a CZ are bringing silly money. Doesn't seem that long since I gave two CZ's away because nobody wanted them.

 

Tell me about it! I bought an FS1E when I was 15 for 30 quid, to ride on fields. Didn't check the oil, seized it up within a week of buying it. I remember my dad taking it to the tip in his Volvo estate. Those things are going for up to £2,000 these days.

[Guest]

 

Tell me about it! I bought an FS1E when I was 15 for 30 quid, to ride on fields. Didn't check the oil, seized it up within a week of buying it. I remember my dad taking it to the tip in his Volvo estate. Those things are going for up to £2,000 these days.

Yes I have seen fizzies go for good prices, seem very sought after. They were a new breed of super mopeds though, compared to the Raleigh and suchlike that we had to put up with

[Tony Brooks]

I do not think comparing a two stroke carburetted petrol engine and a blown air scavenged two stroke diesel is comparing like with like. With good design the two stroke diesel should start its cycle with very little exhaust gas in the cylinder and end it, if well designed, very little unburned fuel components in the cylinder. I suspect it is far easier to get even more air (oxygen) into the exhaust mixture that may, with suitable cats remove the last vestiges of hydrocarbons and it may even be possible to design the scavenge system so a degree of exhaust gas is retained in the cylinder as a sort of EGR to reduce the combustion temperature.

 

Now, a two strike direct injected petrol engine using blown air scavenging may well be even cleaner.

[nb Innisfree]

I am not so sure about all electric with batteries it may yet prove to be a dead end. Some kind of hybrid is likely to be the answer. Something to generate the electricity and electric motors to drive the vehicle. The generator may be a very small fossil fuel engine to begin with but replaced by something else possibly hydrogen.

Maybe charging points in urban areas and for long journeys sub surface inductive charging on motorways. Tesla has 200+ mile range with Audi reportedly planning a 330 mile range car.

 

Whichever I'm looking forward to seeing what direction it all goes!

Edited October 12, 2015 by nb Innisfree

[churchward]

Maybe charging points in urban areas and for long journeys sub surface inductive charging on motorways. Tesla has 200+ mile range with Audi reportedly planning a 330 mile range car.

 

Whichever I'm looking forward to seeing what direction it all goes!

True it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

The issue I have is twofold. The most important of which is time to recharge. Range is all very well 200 or 300 miles but if it takes several hours to recharge its not a step forward. After all when you have done 200 or 300 miles in the conventional combustion engine you just refuel (takes 10 mins if you have to queue to pay) and off you go. The second is the eye watering cost of the batteries to do that kind of range.

 

The cost of course could come down but the issue of charging is a much harder nut to crack you are battling laws of physics. The latest Tesla is around 34 miles of range per hour charged. So, drive more than a 150 miles away from your house you will need to find something to do while your car takes 3 or 4 hours to get enough charge to get you home. I expect they can get this shorter but there are limits. I just see this as a fundamental flaw of the charge at base all electric car. A vehicle with small generation unit will not only increase range but also avoid charging time issues in my view.

 

The Tesla is around £50K starting price so not an everyday family car price as yet.

Edited October 12, 2015 by churchward

[churchward]

I do not think comparing a two stroke carburetted petrol engine and a blown air scavenged two stroke diesel is comparing like with like. With good design the two stroke diesel should start its cycle with very little exhaust gas in the cylinder and end it, if well designed, very little unburned fuel components in the cylinder. I suspect it is far easier to get even more air (oxygen) into the exhaust mixture that may, with suitable cats remove the last vestiges of hydrocarbons and it may even be possible to design the scavenge system so a degree of exhaust gas is retained in the cylinder as a sort of EGR to reduce the combustion temperature.

 

Now, a two strike direct injected petrol engine using blown air scavenging may well be even cleaner.

I agree. the advantage I think with a diesel over petrol is that it is less dependant on a volatile fossil fuel than a petrol 2 stroke altough an acohol fuel is possible I guess. After all Rudolph Diesel designed his initial engines to run on peanut oil. The uses of other fuels is a possibility. Either way though clean efficient 2 stroke of either flavour has a lot of potential and power to cc and weight. An engine running in a narrow power band is not a disadvantage if you are not trying to drive the wheels directly by it but rather run an electric generator to drive electric motors at the wheels.

[nb Innisfree]

[quo a 50e name=churchward" post="1670994" timestamp="1444683815]

 

True it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

The issue I have is twofold. The most important of which is time to recharge. Range is all very well 200 or 300 miles but if it takes several hours to recharge its not a step forward. After all when you have done 200 or 300 miles in the conventional combustion engine you just refuel (takes 10 mins if you have to queue to pay) and off you go. The second is the eye watering cost of the batteries to do that kind of range.

 

The cost of course could come down but the issue of charging is a much harder nut to crack you are battling laws of physics. The latest Tesla is around 34 miles of range per hour charged. So, drive more than a 150 miles away from your house you will need to find something to do while your car takes 3 or 4 hours to get enough charge to get you home. I expect they can get this shorter but there are limits. I just see this as a fundamental flaw of the charge at base all electric car. A vehicle with small generation unit will not only increase range but also avoid charging time issues in my view.

 

The Tesla is around £50K starting price so not an everyday family car price as yet.

 

I can imagine slot in/out battery packs, so unlimited range with spaced rapid swaps of batt pack. Sub surface induction charging might make 300-400 mile journeys on same batt pack feasible. Of course where electric drive reigns supreme is in stop go traffic, no consumption while stationary.

 

I feel all excited!

[churchward]

I can imagine slot in/out battery packs, so unlimited range with spaced rapid swaps of batt pack. Sub surface induction charging might make 300-400 mile journeys on same batt pack feasible. Of course where electric drive reigns supreme is in stop go traffic, no consumption while stationary.

 

I feel all excited!

Do you know how much the batteries weigh in a Tesla? It is 544Kg you will need to go to the Gym to swap them! But of course they may get smaller and lighter.

 

I can't really see a wholesale in road charging loop being installed in roads even if restricted to motorways and other major routes.

 

A stop/go diesel or petrol engine also consumes nothing while stationary.

 

Mind you the funny thing about predicting what will happen in the future particularly the further out in time you are looking at is that it will most likely be nothing like what we think it will be!

Edited October 12, 2015 by churchward

[vulpyfox]

so when will they also ban the use of diesel backup generators in hospitals etc...... where does one draw the line...

Hopefully as most of our diesels give us electricity, heat and propulsion they will give us a bit of a break.

[Ricco1]

Burning fossil fuels in a car, burning fossil fuels to make the electricity to charge up a battery powered car, what's the difference?

[nb Innisfree]

Do you know how much the batteries weigh in a Tesla? It is 544Kg you will need to go to the Gym to swap them! But of course they may get smaller and lighter.

 

I can't really see a wholesale in road charging loop being installed in roads even if restricted to motorways and other major routes.

 

A stop/go diesel or petrol engine also consumes nothing while stationary.

 

Mind you the funny thing about predicting what will happen in the future particularly the further out in time you are looking at is that it will most likely be nothing like what we think it will be!

We're extrapolating from what we have today, London and horseshit springs to mind. We'll most likely plod on inefficiently with various compromises before something revolutionary appears on the horizon, something that may be already be here but unrecognised.

[John V]

Burning fossil fuels in a car, burning fossil fuels to make the electricity to charge up a battery powered car, what's the difference?

 

Apart from the efficiencies of scale, powerstations (big ones anyway) are inherently more efficient than a piston engine

[John V]

It seems to me that the technology of electrical storage is still basically 19th century. Until major advances are made (even Lithium is only scratching the surface) electric storage cars are still going to have big drawbacks.

I believe one avenue of research is to forget chemical storage completely and look harder at the way capacitors work which could be incredibly efficient but also possibly very dangerous (think of a big battery bank that could discharge all its power almost instantly)

[Jambo]

True it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

The issue I have is twofold. The most important of which is time to recharge. Range is all very well 200 or 300 miles but if it takes several hours to recharge its not a step forward. After all when you have done 200 or 300 miles in the conventional combustion engine you just refuel (takes 10 mins if you have to queue to pay) and off you go. The second is the eye watering cost of the batteries to do that kind of range.

 

The cost of course could come down but the issue of charging is a much harder nut to crack you are battling laws of physics. The latest Tesla is around 34 miles of range per hour charged. So, drive more than a 150 miles away from your house you will need to find something to do while your car takes 3 or 4 hours to get enough charge to get you home. I expect they can get this shorter but there are limits. I just see this as a fundamental flaw of the charge at base all electric car. A vehicle with small generation unit will not only increase range but also avoid charging time issues in my view.

 

The Tesla is around £50K starting price so not an everyday family car price as yet.

 

The vast majority of people simply don't drive these kinds of distances on a regular basis though. For those that do then a pure battery electric vehicle isn't for them and a plug in hybrid would be more appropriate. For everyone else they just need the ability to go a couple of hundred miles in one go once in a blue moon and so the EVs that are coming onto the market will be more than adequate.

[cuthound]

When I was working, I went to a presentation by a major battery manufacturer. They were working on an aluminium air battery to use in cars. The anode is aluminium, the cathode air (pumped via a porous membrane or held in a catalyst) and the electrolyte was soda crystals in water. They are currently used for some military applications.

 

These are 8 times more energy dense than lithium ion batteries (which are the present benchmark for energy density). They anticiapte a range of up to 1000km.

 

Virtually everything is recyclable, and at the end of use, the anode has disolvedcinto the electrolyte. They are howeverva one shot device and cannot be recharged.

 

They envisaged a network of stations where standard sized battery packs could be swapped, and the old ones recycled.

 

Never heard anything since though, so perhaps not as easy to production use as first thought. Also requires buy in by vehicle manufacturers and a network of recycling stations.

[Guest]

 

Apart from the efficiencies of scale, powerstations (big ones anyway) are inherently more efficient than a piston engine

Also it is "smokestacks versus tailpipes."

Much easier to remove polluting particles from a few chimneys as opposed to millions of car exhausts.

Don't know what the outcome was, but ultrasound was being investigated as a means of removing polluting particles from chimneys at power stations a few years ago.

[churchward]

 

The vast majority of people simply don't drive these kinds of distances on a regular basis though. For those that do then a pure battery electric vehicle isn't for them and a plug in hybrid would be more appropriate. For everyone else they just need the ability to go a couple of hundred miles in one go once in a blue moon and so the EVs that are coming onto the market will be more than adequate.

For city dwellers that will be true but less so out of town and those doing many miles for business travel. Short hops in a city may be OK with an all electric car but why not in that case get the vehicles off the road entirely and have a better more efficient public transport network. bring back trams and/or trolley busses!!

 

I see an all electric car being fundamentally flawed with the amount of battery and charging time required. They are are best a stop gap to wait for something better and they may even be overtaken (excuse the pun) by other forms before they get to being anywhere near mainstream vehicles.

Edited October 13, 2015 by churchward

[Guest]

For city dwellers that will be true but less so out of town and those doing many miles for business travel. Short hops in a city may be OK with an all electric car but why not in that case get the vehicles off the road entirely and have a better more efficient public transport network. bring back trams and/or trolley busses!!

 

I see an all electric car being fundamentally flawed with the amount of battery and charging time required. They are are best a stop gap to wait for something better and they may even be overtaken (excuse the pun) by other forms before they get to being anywhere near mainstream vehicles.

Yes our stupid politicians (all sides) were hoodwinked many years ago into scrapping much of our public transport (often by stealth), to then find that some of those responsible for the white papers had a vested interest in scrapping the public transport! We never learn.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Guest

[IanD]

It seems to me that the technology of electrical storage is still basically 19th century. Until major advances are made (even Lithium is only scratching the surface) electric storage cars are still going to have big drawbacks.

I believe one avenue of research is to forget chemical storage completely and look harder at the way capacitors work which could be incredibly efficient but also possibly very dangerous (think of a big battery bank that could discharge all its power almost instantly)

They're called supercapacitors and are well known in electronics. On the plus side they can be charged and discharged faster than batteries, which is why some Formula 1 KERS systems use them. On the minus side, their energy density is much lower than batteries, even with some of the latest improvements on the horizon. Chemical energy storage -- effectively at the molecular level -- is just inherently much denser than charge storage.

[GreyLady]

Never!!!

They are best housed in a motocross outfit.....

My mate had a CR500, it was a nice torquey bit of kit, docile and easy to ride with a grin inducing turn of speed.

The most hardcore motocross bike I had was a '92 RM250, much harder to ride quickly than any of the big strokers, power delivery on the RM was savage, I did the wild and woolly on it. DNF'D with a faulty kick start, poxy thing!

All the modern stuff is way quicker, largely on account of vastly improved suspension and brakes. I can ride the wheels off my KTM 200 and be quicker absolutely everywhere compared to the hairy arsed RM!

We have a KTM 500 hybrid in our BSU outfit, 630cc MVP cylinder on it, awesome thing, if somewhat fragile.

What do you mean NEVER ?

 

My kx500 was an ex works bike and I put lights/indicators on it, it was too much for next door neighbour who motocrossed for 20 years.

 

Everyone I let have a go was spat off on the local farm.

 

The kx250's are much nicer, anyway my bike days are over now after breaking my back.

Edited October 13, 2015 by grumpy146

[IanD]

Tesla have already demonstrated a swappable battery -- admittedly it needs fork-lift type equipment, but there's no reason these couldn't be standardised as well as the batteries. If everyone drove them the grid load would go up, but then there'd be a huge bank of batteries (charged cars) attached to it to charge up the flat batteries. Still the cleanest way of moving vehicles around even if the power comes from fossil fuels, far more so if it comes from renewables. Yes I know the problems of relying on renewables without nuclear to provide baseline load capacity...

 

The huge Wartsila diesels might seem to have relatively low power (47bhp/ton) but don't forget this is at about 100rpm, the bmep is ridiculously high as well as the thermodynamic efficiency. They can even be pretty clean, but a lot of the techniques they use only work in low-speed diesels, not high-revving ones like in cars.

Edited October 13, 2015 by IanD

[Guest]

My solution to the transport problem (Bizzard knocked it up for me )

Don't need air con with that prop.

[gazza]

What do you mean NEVER ?

 

My kx500 was an ex works bike and I put lights/indicators on it, it was too much for next door neighbour who motocrossed for 20 years.

 

Everyone I let have a go was spat off on the local farm.

 

The kx250's are much nicer, anyway my bike days are over now after breaking my back.

 

I mean they shouldn't be banned!!

 

In the sidecar world the really quick stuff is the bespoke zabel and MTH 700+CC Strokers.

 

Awesome things.

[Alan de Enfield]

My solution to the transport problem (Bizzard knocked it up for me )

Don't need air con with that prop.

 

Nah - Methane power with petrol back-up is the way to go :

 

[Jay4424]

Don't know what the outcome was, but ultrasound was being investigated as a means of removing polluting particles from chimneys at power stations a few years ago.

 

We use a range of cleansing means, from Low NOX burners, BOFA (Bolier Over Fire Air, making the flame cooler, but longer) Precipitators (big electric fences that charge then attract the dust to big electric plates), SCR (Selective Catalitic Reduction... just a big Cat like on your car, we use hydrogenous Ammonia in this process), to FGD (Flue Gas Desulphurisation, another way of getting rid of SOX but passing the gas through a mist of Limetone slurry.. the out come being cleaner gas and gypsum!).

 

...as in all, the power stations output is genrally very very clean, just abit wqarrm (80degrees) as it needs this to get up the chimey!

 

Jay