Engine Wiring Diagram in "Word"

[alan_fincher]

Maybe not the most obvious software to use, and my normal "Word" skills don't usually extend beyond writing a letter.

 

However rather than hand draw a diagram, I thought Id give it a go, and am grateful to both Cath and Michael for their help in overcoming my "numptiness".

 

At the moment I now think the rats nest of 12 volt wireing in Flamingo's engine room boils down to little more than this, but now I have had a first crack at drafting it all up, I can go back again and see to what extent this is a good match for what is currently there.

 

(The eagle eyed may spot that there is no proper split charging circuit, other than by understanding the function of a red switch, and remembering to open or close the switch at the appropriate times).

 

Can anybody spot any obvious howlers? (EDIT: Other than me apparently labelling one terminal of the Alternator incorrectly..... )

 

Edited April 21, 2015 by alan_fincher

[Scholar Gypsy]

A couple of thoughts (I use powerpoint myself for this stuff....)

 

1) are the alternator switch and starter switch actually physically separate, rather than in a single keyswitch?

2) are the four parallel batteries wired up like that physically? See other threads on whether or not this matters or not, but as drawn the bottom battery would take more of a pounding when the fridge, water pump, shower pump, lights TV etc are in use.

3) the diagram implies the relay is normally shut, and opens when the ignition switch is turned on. Surely it's the other way round?

[Leo No2]

Alan - agree with Simon - PowerPoint is excellent for doing this but well done with Word. On my boat the Inverter/charger is on a separate isolator - don't know if that is worth considering perhaps.

[alan_fincher]

A couple of thoughts (I use powerpoint myself for this stuff....)

 

My subset of "Office" doesn't include PowerPoint

 

1) are the alternator switch and starter switch actually physically separate, rather than in a single keyswitch?

 

Yes, very!

The starter switch (push botton) is mounted on the engine, the alternator switch (simple one-way pull switch) and light are at the end of a 10 feet cable loom.

Basically everything "top right" in the diagram (at the top of the wires numbered 1 to 7) is remote from the rest of it, in a metal box on a bulkhead.

 

2) are the four parallel batteries wired up like that physically? See other threads on whether or not this matters or not, but as drawn the bottom battery would take more of a pounding when the fridge, water pump, shower pump, lights TV etc are in use.

 

(There are 5 batteries in the domestic bank).

Not sure if they are physically wired as I have draw them, but there is very little that actually operates off 12 volts at the moment other than the Inverter, and that is connected opposite ends of the bank. (Fridge is gas or 240V, most lights and central heating pump are 240 volt)

 

3) the diagram implies the relay is normally shut, and opens when the ignition switch is turned on. Surely it's the other way round?

Yes, I suppose it does - I have copied it from Kestrel documentation, so that gives the wrong implication as well, but yes, energising the alternator pulls in the relay to activate the Kestrel.

Alan - agree with Simon - PowerPoint is excellent for doing this but well done with Word. On my boat the Inverter/charger is on a separate isolator - don't know if that is worth considering perhaps.

 

Unless I'm missing something at the moment there is nothing that can isolate the Inverter/Charger from the domestic bank, which it seems to be permanently connected across, as it joins to the "wrong" side of the combined isolator in the negative, and that plays no apparent part in feeding the inverter. I'm uncomfortable with this, but it doesn't seem to stop it having passed a BSS!

[bigste]

Word is quite capable of doing what you've done but the better choice from MS office suite is Publisher. It is far easier to use for doing that sort of stuff and has many more options. Also if you are passing it on to someone else it is worth also saving it as a PDF in case they don't have any of MS office. They can then open it in Adobe Reader which everyone should have as it is free. Both Publisher & Word allow you to save in PDF format.

[Keith M]

Hello Alan,

 

I like the drawing as it's your first time you have undertaken any thing like this

 

The starter battery isolator in the positive cables I find confusing, is there a fuse for the inverter / charger

 

Also good practise today is not to use the negative isolators but use isolates in the positive cables

 

Keith

[David Schweizer]

I don't know if this is of any help, it is the wiring diagram for Helvetia. It would clearly need to be adapted if you do not have, or do not intend to have an Alternator controller.

 

[alan_fincher]

The starter battery isolator in the positive cables I find confusing

 

Yes, it confused me, and seems to be a replacement for a split charge relay that (for reasons unknown) has been removed at some stage.

 

My take, now I have drawn it, is that to start the engine, you (obviously) close the negative isolator, but leave that switch open, so that it starts just off the starter battery, and initially the alternator is only charging that. Once running, close that switch, and both sets of batteries are connected, with all 6 being charged. Once you stop the engine you must remember to open the switch again, so running domestic services will not discharge the starter battery.

 

I think it probably would benefit from a split charge relay being re-introduced, but I'm left wondering why this change was made. As long as you always remember to operate the switch appropriately I think it would be OK though?

 

is there a fuse for the inverter / charger

Only if it contains one as part of itself.

 

To be investigated, because if there isn't and it developed a fault, I hate to think!....

 

Also good practise today is not to use the negative isolators but use isolates in the positive cables

Yes, I agree. This is an attempt to draw what I think I currently have, and to see what potential improvements I would class as urgent, (see above possibly), and what can wait, even if not current best practice.

 

For example, it's obviously not good practice to have a loom of 8 or 9 wires where at a point in the middle all are jointed, and most change to a different colour, (mostly red!). It needs changing, really, but it still works as it is, (mostly!).

[nicknorman]

Unless I'm missing something at the moment there is nothing that can isolate the Inverter/Charger from the domestic bank, which it seems to be permanently connected across, as it joins to the "wrong" side of the combined isolator in the negative, and that plays no apparent part in feeding the inverter. I'm uncomfortable with this, but it doesn't seem to stop it having passed a BSS!

It's not unusual to have an inverter/charger (Combi) wired direct to the batteries ie not going via an isolator. Our boat is wired like this. It is to allow the Combi to trickle charger the batteries whilst the boat is unattended on shore power with the master off. The BSS specifically allows this, provided of course the +ve is fused near the battery. If you are sure you don't have an in line megafuse etc then I would install one as a matter of reasonable priority.

[alan_fincher]

It is to allow the Combi to trickle charger the batteries whilst the boat is unattended on shore power with the master off..

 

That makes sense, (although we personally choose never to leave a land line connected when not there).

 

I'll investigate what the elderly device (Heart Interface "Freedom") actually has built in, and consider adding a mega fuse if there is not adequate internal protection.

[Keith M]

Hello Alan,

 

Is the inverter / charger a Victron unit if so there may be a fuse inside

 

You can also use the positive starter battery isolator as away of starting the engine by using the service battery if the starter battery is flat

 

Keith

[matty40s]

alan - from the HEART iNTERFACE INSTALLATION MANUAL

A Fuse must be installed in the positive battery cable - withing 18 inches of the battery post. This fuse is to protect the cables against a dead short circuit. The inverter is proteced internally and will not in itself blow a properly sized fuse.

[alan_fincher]

alan - from the HEART iNTERFACE INSTALLATION MANUAL

A Fuse must be installed in the positive battery cable - withing 18 inches of the battery post. This fuse is to protect the cables against a dead short circuit. The inverter is proteced internally and will not in itself blow a properly sized fuse.

 

Thanks,

 

Whilst I can kind of understand the logic to that, it does make me consider that an external fuse in addition is not such an urgent priority.

 

Actually, if you consider the whole of what I have drawn, then none of any of the cabling shown is actually protected by any kind of fuse in the event of a short to earth at any point.

 

You have seen inside some of that wiring, and I rather suspect a loose spade connector coming off, or a wire disconnecting itself from a "chocolate block", and either then touching an earthed surface is considerably more likely than the massive cables to the inverter being unexpectedly breached.

 

I've never really thought about it, but none of Chalice's actual engine wiring was protected by any fuse either, and David's drawing for Helvetia would seem to suggest the same. Yet some short occurring at an instrument panel where spade and bullet connects might come apart seems not at all impossible!

 

So would the more modern wiring wiring harness and instrument panel for say a newer Beta or a Vetus engine contain any fuses to protect against wiring faults, or do all installations just assume this isn't ever going to happen?

You can also use the positive starter battery isolator as away of starting the engine by using the service battery if the starter battery is flat

 

Keith

 

Yes.

 

Because I'm used to having to actively throw a switch to connect a starter battery when I want to be starting the boat, I have been instinctively turning that switch on whenever I have fired up the Lister. I now realise, if my diagram is correct, that I have therefore been starting using the starter battery paralleled to the 5 in the domestic bank.

[lockedout]

Word is quite capable of doing what you've done but the better choice from MS office suite is Publisher. It is far easier to use for doing that sort of stuff and has many more options. Also if you are passing it on to someone else it is worth also saving it as a PDF in case they don't have any of MS office. They can then open it in Adobe Reader which everyone should have as it is free. Both Publisher & Word allow you to save in PDF format.

 

Plus One for BigSte.

 

I use Publisher and also save to PDF for sending to people.

 

I have just finished rewiring Charlotte, major points learned...

 

Domestic bank not 'laddered', each battery is connected to a BusBar, neg and pos, with exactly the same length cables to equalise the resistance across the bank and therefore make sure that all the batteries do their fair share of the work.

 

Fit a third BusBar on the supply side of the domestic isolator to make power take off nice and easy.

 

Fitted a full SmartBank system, as I already have a SmartGuage it made sense. I needed to fit two relays though as I treated my Bowthruster battery as a third 'bank' and therefore had to fit a slave relay.

 

Merlin Power Systems at Poole are a brilliant company! Particularly the lovely Vicky, she really helped me through the process answering my stupid questions both via email and phone with an unfailing good humour.

 

When building a new battery box, think about how you are going to lift 135Ah batteries into and out of your engine hole without giving yourself several dozen hernias - mine now have removable fronts so the batteries will slide forward.

 

Looking forward to a summer's cruising now without the fridge tripping out every 5 minutes....

[Scholar Gypsy]

No glowplugs? (sorry, in my mind as I changed mine at the weekend - maybe your engine does not have them!).

 

To answer your question about whether the panel devices are fused, in an earlier thread on the diagram I drew last year (here) the consensus was that the hour meter, the (alleged) tachograph, electric oil and water gauges and alarms etc, were not normally fused at all in most boats. By contrast the fuel pump (which is mission critical) is fused.

 

I am rather with you - given the number of wires that could become detached, this does seem a bit odd. Maybe the point is that such a wire would just burn out, before doing too much damage, whereas the cable running forward to the horn could easily start a fire if it shorted out?

[nicknorman]

 

So would the more modern wiring wiring harness and instrument panel for say a newer Beta or a Vetus engine contain any fuses to protect against wiring faults, or do all installations just assume this isn't ever going to happen?

 

 

Modern engines such as Beta etc have an in-line fuse in the engine wiring harness. Basically the engine battery +ve connection on the starter solenoid (or possibly the engine alternator B+ , same thing) is the source of power for the panel, heaters etc, and is connected via an in line blade fuse which is normally located near this point somewhere around the engine. Thus everything downstream of it is protected.

 

Having once been riding an old (1970s) triumph trident which decided to have a major short circuit, with the wire in question visibly glowing incandescent red (the insulation having vaporised) next to the plastic fairing etc, I know that an uncontained short circuit is no laughing matter. Substituting the 7AH bike battery for a 110 AH boat battery, and in a confined space, doesn't bear thinking about!

Edited April 21, 2015 by nicknorman

[mango]

Alan - agree with Simon - PowerPoint is excellent for doing this but well done with Word. On my boat the Inverter/charger is on a separate isolator - don't know if that is worth considering perhaps.

I don't understand why one should be better than the other.

[mango]

In David's wiring, there should be a suitable fuse in the cable linking the starter and domestic batteries via the split-charge relay. It is possible that the Kestrel alternator controller in Alan's wiring contains such a fuse but if not, one should be fitted.

[Murflynn]

I use Excel (drawing function) for all my drawings, it is much more versatile, but probably not so easy to use for simple applications.

[nicknorman]

Don't Word, PowerPoint and Excel all use the same drawing engine? Well they seem to in my 2003 version anyway.

[IanM]

Freebie (for non-commercial use) CAD software if you really want to get technical

 

http://www.3ds.com/products-services/draftsight-cad-software/free-download/

 

Edited to add: No connection with the above product or company, just thought the link might be useful to someone

Edited April 22, 2015 by IanM

[RLWP]

It isn't helping Alan, I use Visio. It has the necessary connectors on objects and intelligent connecting lines, so if you move something on the drawing (a battery or switch for instance) the connections move with it. There are libraries of electrical items too

 

There is a freeware variant of Visio, can't remember the name

 

Richard

[David Schweizer]

In David's wiring, there should be a suitable fuse in the cable linking the starter and domestic batteries via the split-charge relay. It is possible that the Kestrel alternator controller in Alan's wiring contains such a fuse but if not, one should be fitted.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I have often wondered whether the charging system should be fused. As far as location is concerned, are you are referring to:-

 

a. the cable between the alternator and the split charge relay,

b. the cable between the cabin batteries and the relay, or

c. the cable between the starter battery and the relay?

 

If b. or c. would you fit it before or after the ammeter?

 

The alternator has an output of 55amps, all the cables are 10mm2 - 70amp, what size fuse would you recommend?

Edited April 22, 2015 by David Schweizer

[Catrin]

OK, this feels a little bit like the following scenario.

 

Let's assume that my OH is a former food scientist. But he's almost never cooked anything more than a can of baked beans. Our son work in a kitchen installing and fixing the appliances, and I am a former lecturer who taught people how to cook.

 

Our son sees that his dad wants to cook a meal - so he takes him in the kitchen and says, "look Dad, there is a gas cooker here, I'll show you how to make a simple spaghetti bolognese".

 

OH has never used a gas cooker to make spaghetti bolognese before, but manages quite well with a bit of input from our son and occasionally from me.

 

He shows everyone the spaghetti, everyone starts to say - "What? Why did you use gas? Why didn't you use electric/ induction/ microwave/ etc?"

 

Perhaps because the gas hob was the only thing available? Perhaps because he's occasionally used the gas oven before for cooking baked beans and it was slightly more familiar to him?

 

Look at the spaghetti. Not the cooker.

[RLWP]

One big enough to protect the cable

 

Richard

But the cooker is so shiny, and so many gadgets

 

I avoid wiring that looks like spaghetti

 

Richard