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pippawatson

Kildare renovation.

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Kildare, the historic butty, is currently being repaired by Ian and David Kemp at Dadford's Wharf.

If you are on Facebook search under "Ian Kemp Restoration Services" to see photos of the ongoing work.

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What proof exists that this boat is "Kildare"?

Sold to Ernie Thomas in 1948 who knows what he called it?

The same could be said for "President".... Why that is kept at the Black Country Living museum is beyond me, its not a Black Country boat.

  • Greenie 1

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I must say, while I do not agree with everything that happens with said boats all the time, I have less time for people who attack their actions than those who own and work on them.

 

The proof that the boat in question is Kildare is that its painted on the side of the dam thing and it is is what everyone calls it.

President lives at the BCLM because it is owned by and operated for the museum. Its a nice boat and people like to see it there.

 

If we want to talk about the certainty of the exact hulls heritage, that for me is a separate thread to this one.

 

 

Daniel

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Why has Barnet spent recent years playing about on the BCN rather than on the Grand Union?

 

There were other more appropriate boats for you to use at the time.

  • Greenie 1

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Oh Jeez, I'd better make a confession.

We were only trying to help but........

 

To help BCLM and Kempy out while he was busy, me and Jim went to the museum one weekend and towed that boat back with Gazelle.

Now we will just have to sneak it back to them after repairs and hope no one notices we took the wrong one.

 

Keep schtum and we might just get away with it.

Edited by pippawatson

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Between you and Tony Dunkley, negativity is the new waterways catchword.

Come across with a slightly different angle, questioning providence with some evidence by all means.

President has to live somewhere - do you want it triple moored on Caledonian Road??

Come on Lawrence, save your real angst for real targets.

Cor blimey, bit touchy aren't we? Theres long been a question about FMC butty /horse boats sold to Ernie Thomas, some were chopped (ie to make tugs eg "Birchills") others were renamed. Even today new evidence turns up on some of these boats from almost long forgotten memories people think are un important. There was a question over Kildare some years ago and my reason for posting was to see what answers came back. Bit of waste of time it seems. I wasn't aware that BCLM owned the "President".

 

Why has Barnet spent recent years playing about on the BCN rather than on the Grand Union?

 

There were other more appropriate boats for you to use at the time.

"Barnet" is entirely appropriate for the job it has done and does, I do not wish to own another Joey or tug having had a number of Joeys in the past and a BCN tug (Swallow ex LLL). It "plays" on the BCN because it has been working with BW for over 30 years up here and now is owned by me working in conjunction with both formerly BW and now CRT. It has now spent more time as a BCN boat than on "home territory" and had the honour of being given the last BCN number whilst it was still possible to issue one. Sadly it now sits tied up most of the time because CRT do not use it or give us any jobs to do like BW did. It will shortly be up for sale if that state continues.

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Oh Jeez, I'd better make a confession.

We were only trying to help but........

 

To help BCLM and Kempy out while he was busy, me and Jim went to the museum one weekend and towed that boat back with Gazelle.

Now we will just have to sneak it back to them after repairs and hope no one notices we took the wrong one.

 

Keep schtum and we might just get away with it.

I think we shall next time be at the top of Delph before we spend another 6 hours or so in the 'Vine' drinking Bathams best beers not at the bottom!

  • Greenie 2

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Hopefully this time with more than a ham roll in our bellies to soak up the ale.

Good ale though so you have to buy lots to encourage the brewer and help the local economy.

Edited by pippawatson

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Whether Barnet is suiting a purpose or not is not what you asked. You asked why Kildare is being kept at BCLM when it isn't a Black Country boat.

 

The same question can be asked of Barnet.

  • Greenie 1

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Cats are supposed to drink milk not beer.

 

No, milk is bad for cats.

Don't know about beer, though.

 

Tim

Edited by Timleech

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Whether Barnet is suiting a purpose or not is not what you asked. You asked why Kildare is being kept at BCLM when it isn't a Black Country boat.

 

The same question can be asked of Barnet.

Read again Liam.

I did not ask about Kildare as if she is the boat she has a proper place on the BCN as it worked the BCN.

 

Barnet is either in Wolverhampton or Norton Canes, not at the BCLM.

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[1] What proof exists that this boat is "Kildare"?

[2] Sold to Ernie Thomas in 1948 who knows what he called it?

The same could be said for "President".... [3] Why that is kept at the Black Country Living museum is beyond me, its not a Black Country boat.

 

The milk, beer and cats were interesting.

 

[1] What proof? Is there proof it is not? There was no proof YARMOUTH our second boat was YARMOUTH, but that's what it was called, it was a Braithwaite, and we took the previous owners word for it. Why not? There was no evidence it was something else - though it could have been. But where does that leave you - should we have painted DON'T KNOW on the sides?

[2] Likewise - I have no idea what Ernie Thomas called it either. Might even have been KILDARE.

[3] PRESIDENT is an example of a steam powered ex-working narrow boat, and would seem to suit being moored in a museum environment as there aren't many of them around. Probably safer than on a towpath in the vicinity of its original place of build - presuming there was room, and it was allowed. But at the BCLM it is an added attraction - so why not there? - is that so beyond belief?

 

Laurence, you hold a lot of information that many are appreciative of in the sharing, but comments such as those you made can lead people into thinking you are nit-picking and over critical, hence the series of retaliatory comments. Doesn't do you any good.

 

I'm glad KILDARE is being kept up to scratch. A few images here:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.713834165400903.1073741843.550895268361461&type=1

Edited by Derek R.

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I'm pleased Kildare is getting fettled. There's a few boats who are shy about their names but hey ho as long as they keep going.

 

It's true about cats and milk , some are more lactose intolerant than others . starry is the person to explain more about it.

 

Most cats probably wouldn't drink Bathams but this one likes a pint or two on social occasions.

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It's true about cats and milk , some are more lactose intolerant than others . starry is the person to explain more about it.

 

Could we be about to have the best ever off topic swerve?

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The milk, beer and cats were interesting.

 

[1] What proof? Is there proof it is not? There was no proof YARMOUTH our second boat was YARMOUTH, but that's what it was called, it was a Braithwaite, and we took the previous owners word for it. Why not? There was no evidence it was something else - though it could have been. But where does that leave you - should we have painted DON'T KNOW on the sides?

[2] Likewise - I have no idea what Ernie Thomas called it either. Might even have been KILDARE.

[3] PRESIDENT is an example of a steam powered ex-working narrow boat, and would seem to suit being moored in a museum environment as there aren't many of them around. Probably safer than on a towpath in the vicinity of its original place of build - presuming there was room, and it was allowed. But at the BCLM it is an added attraction - so why not there? - is that so beyond belief?

 

Laurence, you hold a lot of information that many are appreciative of in the sharing, but comments such as those you made can lead people into thinking you are nit-picking and over critical, hence the series of retaliatory comments. Doesn't do you any good.

 

Derek,

There was always an open discussion even back in the early 1970's as to which Josher butty was who with the use of Ernie Thomas's fleet.

The boats lay about, some used by others (leased or on loan)and one spent years on Woods dock at Lane Head devoid of any ID.

BCN 21982, acquired in 1945 FMC "Grimshaw" (a name NOT listed in the Saltley dock book) has always posed a question, re regd 2233 and renamed "Sid". Then we have FMC "Longton" BCN 1196 re regd 2232 again in 1945 but with no name listed as BCN 2244. In 1948 BCN 2285 is called "Bob" but was an FMC hull, that was still about in the 70's.

In 1949 Thomas acquired "Kilburn" BCN 21192 and renamed it "Anne" as BCN 2311, in 1950 BCN 20237 FMC "Sweden" then becomes BCN 2343 and retains the name, this is the last recorded iron horse boat passing to E Thomas.

 

Why so many were re weighed has always been a mystery, others like Kildare are listed as sold but retain the former gauging number. Overall the amount of FMC boats passing to Thomas's was enormous, many of the ex steamers went to him and a lot of wooden boats. Interestingly the tug "Apollo" was shortened and used as a carrying tug but no reference to this are shown in the BCN table notes I have.

The Thomas fleet is quite a can of worms!

Edited by Laurence Hogg

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My records of B.C.N. 21743 indicate that KILDARE was renamed by Ernest Thomas as PATSY, but I have no idea how the boat currently named KILDARE was later identified.

 

All I know is that the boat currently named KILDARE is one of the Braithwaite and Kirk built F.M.C. Ltd. horse boats and was acquired by Willow Wren Canal Carrying Company Ltd. in January 1955 and named as SNIPE. It was renamed as KILDARE in the 1970's, some time after being sold out of full time trade.

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Won't there be repairs dating from WW2 present, or recently present, on Kildare from when it and the three other FMC boats were bombed at New Warwick Wharf in 1940?

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There are many repairs on Kildare allready she has a steel bottom and some of that is being replaced so a repair of a repair, some cut out and welded in hull patches and she has been mostly refooted. Difficult to tell if any of the bashed in bits are bomb damage of just hard usage.

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Kildare, was, as Pete Harrison said, built by Braithwaite and Kirk of West Bromwich, which is very much on the BCN. They also built some Joey boats for FMC, one No 108 is at the BCLM also. Peacock is more the problem boat, not wanted by its owners, the Think Tank, and more or less dumped at the BCLM. But they are finally paying for some repairs, long overdue.

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Peacock wont be a problem boat if they accept that there are people around who genuinely care about the boat want whats best and want it to be kept for what it is.

But as you say think tank dont want it and bclm dont care much as its not there own boat.

Im sure if i hadn't paid attention to the fact no one was caring for her i dont think we would be having the work done.

 

Boat names there is always going to be some misery over some. Im sure there are a lot of boats named without 100% its that boat. We cant go back in time to see where every boat went. Some boats history is lost but you then get the odd bit of info from a boater or someone who knew the boat to help piece it all together.

There is also the argument of is any wooden boat still the same boat it left the builder from?

Edited by billybobbooth

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If a wooden boat is restored plank by plank, then you retain the shape and character of the hull then yes, it is the same boat, restored. If you take the ironwork away and start afresh then that is a rebuild and not a restoration, regardless of any detailed measurements. That's my 2 penneth anyway!

As an aside , I think we may have been around Langley Mill around the same time in the 90s, and similar ages??

Regards

Dan

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