evicted for living on a leisure mooring

[Southern Star]

Hi John

 

I do love your posts A leisure mooring is what it always has been. Its simple. Nowts changed for many years, a bit like cruising and moving around the system rather than extracting the urine

 

Tim

Ah, but if a boater did genuinely continuously cruise, then where would he/she find so much time to contribute to the internet?

[sueb]

The OP asks about being evicted for living on a leisure mooring. Yes it does happen occasionally. One I know of was after a nearby resident complained and the mooring owner asked them to leave. The other was a marina who told all their residents to leave after trouble getting an ambulance onto the site in an emergency. It's easier for the owners to get rid of the boaters than have the hassle.

[Alan de Enfield]

The other was a marina who told all their residents to leave after trouble getting an ambulance onto the site in an emergency.

 

Strange logic - presumably weekenders / leisure boaters do not have accidents in a marina ?

[Mike Todd]

The criticism of BWML is unwarranted, insofar as it refers to enofrcement of residential usage. (They did have a regional manager who set out a silly letter about two years ago which refereed to people using as a 'pied a terre' - yes, really - which was not allowed but I think colleagues soon put him right!)

 

As I understand it, BWML have acted like most marinas by turning a blind eye to permanent living on residential berths but several local authorities seriously threatened action a little while back. Credit to BWML who, as I read it, took the lead in challenging this by pointing out that if they threw out all of these residents then the LA would have to take on the housing liability as they would all be officially homeless. Faced with this expensive possibility, they collectively backed down in return for the marinas regularising the situation by making a planning application which was readily agreed (they had previously been unwilling)

 

This is all hearsay (like most of forum content!) but if reasonably true then I think BWML should be congratulated, especially for taking a lead and being quite blunt with the local authorities.

[Yank on the Cut]

In fact, following a complaint to the Waterways Ombudsman by one of their customers, BWML were required to regularise the provision of moorings by either ceasing to offer Grade 1 (liveaboard) moorings or only to do so where residential planning permission was in place. The Ombudsman rightly considered charging people extra to liveaboard their boat within a marina whilst not having planning permission to be poor practice.

 

So, BWML were forced to pursue residential planning permission by the Ombudsman or face losing many of their berth holders (perhaps they could have simply stopped charging a premium for liveaboards).

[pearlygeoff]

I know waffling and spouting ill informed nonsense is preferred on this site but here's another chance to read this factual information.

 

 

They, CRT, want us all to be in a marina, a BWML private profit marina, and pay rent for an unlawful mooring. And, yet , they claim they are not a housing authority. They're not. They're 'slum landlords'. Charging people for living in their own homes in cramped conditions with minimal facilities where you have to 'keep your head down' and pretend you don't live there. Encouraging the development of 'camps'/marinas, taking them over by excessive connection charges, and herding boaters, or their boats, into them to get rent. Or allowing 'mooring arrangements' whereby they get rent for not, actually, providing a mooring thereby renting the same space more than once. It's a scam. Another BW/CRT scam. Just like landlords of B and B properties sign up homeless people to get housing benefit payments for phantom 'tenants'.

Here are some paragraphs from a draft document entitled: BW RESIDENTIAL MOORING POLICY - 11 August 2009

Provision of berths for residential use.

5 Whilst there are many different patterns and degrees of living afloat, this policy relates to long-term moorings where the moored boat is used as someone's sole or primary residence. This use requires planning permission.

7 The supply of long-term mooring sites where residency is permitted (i.e. sites where planning permission has been granted for residential use by the Local Planning Authority) is very limited (for example around 40 out of BW's long-term mooring sites are designated for residential use).

Unauthorised residency at long-term leisure moorings.

11 As explained above, a mooring for a boat used as someone's sole or primary residence requires planning consent. Therefore a boat occupied as a primary residence at a long-term leisure mooring would normally constitute (a) a breach of planning control and therefore a breach of BW's mooring agreement or lease with an operator.

Note relating to BW's mooring agreement: Condition 8. You must comply with the conditions of any planning permission for the Mooring Site and comply with relevant laws, byelaws, site rules and special conditions, including any concerning your private use of land at the mooring site.

 

 

14 If BW knows there is unauthorised residential use (e.g. we receive housing benefit as payment for mooring fees) it does not mean we are committing an offence by permitting the use to continue, but it does mean we are vulnerable to enforcement action. LPA's expect BW, as navigation authority and land-owner of the waterway, to control and regulate activity at mooring sites and they consider us to have an interest in privately-operated as well as our own directly-managed sites when they consider planning enforcement.

17 The opinion of some is that it's 'breaking the rules', avoiding council tax and 'unfair'. Others, however, believe that if the site is tidy and there's no harm being done, it's not a problem and can provide a useful presence.

Enforcement (by BW or the LPA) brings with it a significant risk of simply moving the unauthorised residential use elsewhere on the waterway, or possibly causing homelessness.

24 We acknowledge that unauthorised residential use at long-term leisure mooring is contrary to planning control and potentially a breach of BW's mooring agreement or lease.

26 Boating customers should be fully aware of all relevant issues and regulations relating to living on their boat. They should understand that by living on their boat at a long-term leisure mooring, they risk enforcement action by the LPA and by BW.

34 We will require all new customers taking up a BW leisure mooring to confirm their understanding that if they use a leisure mooring as their primary residence they put themselves at risk of enforcement action.

 

'Long term leisure mooring' also includes marina mooring.

So, people living on boats are subject to enforcement action for not having a mooring and are subject to rules that are punitive in intent and impossible to abide by. If they have a mooring they will be liable to enforcement action by BW and the LPA and could be made homeless. They have to confirm their understanding that what they are doing, and paying for, is unlawful and they are at risk of enforcement action. They must do this to avoid enforcement action for not having a mooring.

I was aware of the 'relevant issues and regulations' and aware of its illegality and the risk of enforcement action. So, as I didn't want one or need one, and there weren't any, after much thought I decided I wouldn't have one.

However, the court, not being fully aware of these 'inconsistencies' because they weren't presented to the court, saw my taking a mooring, which the court was falsely assured were available, as a solution to allow me to stay on the waterways.

So, I was threatened with 'homelessness' through the seizure/theft of my boat if I didn't take such a mooring even though there were no actual existing moorings in the area.

I applied for a mooring on the towpath and offered to pay mooring fees and renew my licence. But, as you are now aware they ignored my application and stole my boat anyway because that's what they wanted to do.

Those of you living in marinas and thinking you are obeying the rules and the law, whereas those on the actual waterway are not, are mistaken.

Here is a letter from BWML to its 'customers' who live on boats in their marinas.

 

Over the last 24 months you will be aware that some local Authorities have been taking legal action against either Marina owners and/or mooring customers direct for unlawfully living on craft on moorings which do not have residential planning approval. This action has also created a reaction by some marina owners to terminate contracts with customers who are living on a non-planning approved residential mooring, and, only recently 68 customers received termination notices for this reason within a marina on the Great Ouse. All of this action is creating substantial uncertainty within the mooring industry and particularly within the customer base.

From a BWML perspective we have been aware that some of our Grade 1 customers have been taking a non-residential contract but then living on their vessel for the full 12 months, this is in breach of contract terms. To try and protect those customers who require a residential contract BWML have undertaken to be very active in persuading Local Authorities to allow residential status to be granted, and to date, we have been very successful in achieving this strategic goal which is enabling BWML to offer customers a mooring product they are obviously requiring within the market.

The pricing differential between Grade 2 and Grade 1 has always been an issue when customers utilise their berth for residential purposes. Going forward the new full planning approved residential status moorings will address this issue and develop a much fairer pricing index across all of our customer usage.

I know some of our customers who were unofficially breaching our contract terms are unhappy with the residential status direction now being applied by BWML, however neither they or BWML would have appreciated legal action being forced by the Local Authorities. BWML is therefore leading the mooring industry with residential applications and I am pleased we are achieving the customer protection, even though I am aware some of our customers would be happy to continue without changes being applied".

 

They are a law unto themselves. They force people to take moorings, for which they take money, knowing it's unlawful and pursue draconian enforcement tactics and legal action against those who are unwilling to comply with their unlawful requirements and manipulate and corrupt that process and ignore its outcome if not favourable to them.

 

 

Canal and river tyranny website.

[Alan de Enfield]

I know waffling and spouting ill informed nonsense is preferred on this site but here's another chance to read this factual information.

 

 

 

Having read it once, why would I want to read the "ill informed nonsense" again ?

[b0atman]

My address is my boat the problem is that it is moveable .

Mail can be sorted by care of or a mail forwarding company.

Moorings are just that somewhere for boat to stop for a length of time.

[blackrose]

It isn't. I've lived like that for the last 10 years. I'm not sure it's kosher though, since TV licensing is a bit of a grey area. You actually DO have to have a place for that, I think, with a regular license.

 

As far as I'm aware TV licences include use of an additional tv in a caravan or boat. So as long as your registered address has a tv licence you should be covered.

Edited February 1, 2015 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

As far as I'm aware TV licences include use of an additional tv in a caravan or boat. So as long as your registered address has a tv licence you should be covered.and the TV is not being used in the address that the licence refers to.

 

If your 'registered address' is a family member or friend than "officially" you cannot use the TV on the boat as the occupants of the house may also be using the TV.

 

"They" will never know if you do, buts that how the law stands.

 

The rules :

 

If you have a static caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet and it has a TV which is used at the same time as a TV set is being used in your main licensed home you'll need a separate licence to cover your second home. You'll also need to buy a TV Licence if your static caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet is your main residence and you use a TV set in it.

You can buy a TV Licence online.

 

However, if the TV in your static caravan or mobile home is never in use at the same time as the TV at your main home, you don't need a separate licence. But you do need to complete a declaration form and return it to us so that we can update our records. Please note, the above only applies if:

• Your caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet is capable of being moved from one place to another (by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer).
• You have a TV Licence at your home address.

[blackrose]

 

 

If your 'registered address' is a family member or friend than "officially" you cannot use the TV on the boat as the occupants of the house may also be using the TV.

 

"They" will never know if you do, buts that how the law stands.

 

The rules :

 

If you have a static caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet and it has a TV which is used at the same time as a TV set is being used in your main licensed home you'll need a separate licence to cover your second home. You'll also need to buy a TV Licence if your static caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet is your main residence and you use a TV set in it.

You can buy a TV Licence online.

 

However, if the TV in your static caravan or mobile home is never in use at the same time as the TV at your main home, you don't need a separate licence. But you do need to complete a declaration form and return it to us so that we can update our records. Please note, the above only applies if:

• Your caravan, mobile home or moveable chalet is capable of being moved from one place to another (by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer).
• You have a TV Licence at your home address.

 

 

Oh well, I think the tv licencing people have got enough work to do checking land-based dwellings. I can't see them coming after boats.

 

 

I remember watching this in Austrailia in the 80s and the Aussies didn't get it because they'd never heard of a TV licence.

[Loafer]

Interestin TV licensing stuff. Thanks everyone.

 

I wonder how many boaters have a legal telly on board!!

[rgreg]

A Marina (all leisure moorings) I know was required by the local council to give them the names and addresses of moorers. I know officials from the council went around boats and asked people to provide a council tax bill of an address in their name. I do not know what, if any, action was taken by the council against those that couldn't provide this and were perhaps identified as living aboard.

[Southern Star]

A Marina (all leisure moorings) I know was required by the local council to give them the names and addresses of moorers. I know officials from the council went around boats and asked people to provide a council tax bill of an address in their name. I do not know what, if any, action was taken by the council against those that couldn't provide this and were perhaps identified as living aboard.

Can't understand how this would work. I'm registered on the electoral register for my address, and my girlfriend loses the single resident discount because I live with her, but the bill is in her name, not mine, and I can't see that being unable to provide a CT bill in my name could be considered to be evidence that I was living on a boat.

[magpie patrick]

A Marina (all leisure moorings) I know was required by the local council to give them the names and addresses of moorers. I know officials from the council went around boats and asked people to provide a council tax bill of an address in their name. I do not know what, if any, action was taken by the council against those that couldn't provide this and were perhaps identified as living aboard.

 

I'm rather hoping this would be a first pass check and anyone found not being able to qualify as living elsewhere on this basis would then be asked for another way of verifying it. If a council went to court, or planning appeal, on the basis that someone lives aboard "because they don't appear on a council tax bill elsewhere" the only delay to the judgement against them would be for the judge/inspector to pick his jaw up off the floor or to stop laughing. The test of primary residence is much more rigorous than this.

 

For most purposes my lodgings are my primary residence and my father's house is my correspondence address. I can receive correspondence at my lodgings, which allows me to be a member of the local library and to register with a GP, but for banks, DVLA etc I don't.

[b0atman]

A lot of live aboard people may be in Spain for 3 months in the winter and in the remaining 9 months be in and out of their mooring district so how would that affect council tax ?

I know a lot of Boaters who when council started hassling then said to council we are not allowed to be live aboard so give us a house as we will be homeless this the council did and the same people who could afford to kept their boats.

[NigelMoore]

 

Oh well, I think the tv licencing people have got enough work to do checking land-based dwellings. I can't see them coming after boats.

 

 

They do. One of our boaters received a licence demand threatening action years ago.

[KevMc]

 

They do. One of our boaters received a licence demand threatening action years ago.

 

I'm getting regular threats but filing them all in the bin

[BruceinSanity]

It's a liveaboard dilemma. Not very likely that those not on residential will have an option of alternative accommodation. This is my home ground and I put my name down for residential straight away. Even later, when I have the time to cruise, I'm considering keeping the mooring as a base. Looks like there will be a few more gaps come march.

I see from the notes of the latest moorers' forum meeting here that Mercia is applying for a further 80 residential berths which would raise the leisure/resi ratio to 60/40. It won't happen before March, though.

[madcat]

No idiot lantern on my boat . I watch a bit at home but only because its hubby's set and licence . I'd not bother to spend the money and don't miss the telly if it's not there.

[Athy]

 

I'm getting regular threats but filing them all in the bin

I got those when I had a flat at the last school at which I taught. They became progressively more threatening over a period of a year or so, and for months they were threatening to visit the premises. I filed them in the same way as you did. No one ever came round - at least, not whilst I was in the flat.