evicted for living on a leisure mooring

[14skipper]

Has the trust ever evicted/removed a boat for living on a leisure mooring ?

If you had a leisure mooring and stayed on your boat for X amount of the year on that mooring and then for X amount of the year you were out cruising.at what point in time would you be considered to be living on a leisure mooring.

X being at what point you would stop being on your mooring for leisure and to being living on it.

As if you were away from your mooring and cruising within the rules you can live on your boat as much as you like.

 

14 skipper

[cotswoldsman]

Sorry even at the second time of asking I am having difficulty. Could you define what you mean by leisure mooring please

[Dave_P]

Leisure mooring: Permanent mooring without planning permission for residential use.

 

AFAIK there has never been any successful enforcement on the OPs suggestion. Many marinas won't allow it, some work on a 'don't ask, don't tell' basis and some don't seem to give two hoots about it!

 

I have a leisure mooring. I mostly live on my boat. I'm away from my mooring a lot. I'm content.

 

As to what CRT think, I had a vague email answer to this once which suggested that I shouldn't be on my mooring for more than 4 nights a week. But, the email failed to point out that it's not CRTs concern whether or not you're living on your boat. It's the local planning authority's issue. I'd be fascinated to hear of any boater who has been served with a planning enforcement notice or been asked to submit an application in relation to this.

[Higgs]

In the marina I'm at, a leisure mooring is that which isn't residential. The owner of a boat on a leisure mooring is only allowed to live on the boat for 6 months in any one year period.

[Bettie Boo]

In the marina I'm at, a leisure mooring is that which isn't residential. The owner of a boat on a leisure mooring is only allowed to live on the boat for 6 months in any one year period.

 

So in theory, you could life on your boat moored in the marina from say November - April and then leave the marina and cruise from May - October and be within the "rules" of your marina.

 

Is that the gist of it? I appreciate each marina would have it's own "rules"

 

Not that we're interested in being in a marina at this point in our lives, but in years to come it might be of interest to us.

[Naughty Cal]

In the marina I'm at, a leisure mooring is that which isn't residential. The owner of a boat on a leisure mooring is only allowed to live on the boat for 6 months in any one year period.

Our marina allows people to live onboard on the "leisure moorings" for 11 months of the year.

 

It isnt difficult to rack up 30 days in a year away from the mooring.

[Higgs]

 

So in theory, you could life on your boat moored in the marina from say November - April and then leave the marina and cruise from May - October and be within the "rules" of your marina.

 

Is that the gist of it? I appreciate each marina would have it's own "rules"

 

Not that we're interested in being in a marina at this point in our lives, but in years to come it might be of interest to us.

 

 

I think it was in the minds of the marina owners that they still wanted to encourage winter moorers, at the time when they were planning to go residential with some moorings.

Our marina allows people to live onboard on the "leisure moorings" for 11 months of the year.

 

It isnt difficult to rack up 30 days in a year away from the mooring.

 

 

Prior to the recent move towards some residential moorings at this marina, it was generally overlooked, how much time a person lived aboard. Actually, I haven't heard of or seen any evidence to suggest the 6 month rule is being applied. It doesn't make that much sense for a marina to kick out regular custom.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Higgs

[Dreadnaught]

The is no universal standard applied anywhere on the System.

My first point is you don't live on a mooring you live on your boat. You rent by mutual agreement with the mooring owner permission to tie up on his/her 'land'.

Fortunately not many marina owners act along similar lines as BWML who's only interest is screwing as much money out of the punter as he is prepared to put up with by applying for planning permission to operate a 'residential' business subject to business rates.

If a private operator is happy to allow liveaboards alongside weekenders appreciate him and keep in his good-books. If he wants you to leave the berth at a specified time in order to satisfy his leisure status - go on holiday or whatever. Think of yourself as a continuous cruiser with a home mooring. This is not North Korea - who's business do you think it is to monitor your daily comings and goings. Just use your commonsense and reveal only as little as your are required to anyone.

If you have an awkward relationship - shove off and find a more accommodating one.

[David Mack]

Sorry even at the second time of asking I am having difficulty. Could you define what you mean by leisure mooring please

 

Leisure mooring as in a non-residential mooring, there being two aspects as to whether a mooring is residential:

• does it have planning permission for residential use?
• does the mooring provider (whether CRT or anyone else) permit residential use as a term of the mooring contract?

[Dave_P]

Our marina allows people to live onboard on the "leisure moorings" for 11 months of the year.

 

It isnt difficult to rack up 30 days in a year away from the mooring.

The problem with this is it's not really up to the marina in the end. To put it another way, the marina might think it's ok to be there 11 months of the year, but the council might take a different view. As I've said before, I suspect it's highly unlikely that the council would take any action though.

[magpie patrick]

The is no universal standard applied anywhere on the System.

My first point is you don't live on a mooring you live on your boat. You rent by mutual agreement with the mooring owner permission to tie up on his/her 'land'.

Fortunately not many marina owners act along similar lines as BWML who's only interest is screwing as much money out of the punter as he is prepared to put up with by applying for planning permission to operate a 'residential' business subject to business rates.

If a private operator is happy to allow liveaboards alongside weekenders appreciate him and keep in his good-books. If he wants you to leave the berth at a specified time in order to satisfy his leisure status - go on holiday or whatever. Think of yourself as a continuous cruiser with a home mooring. This is not North Korea - who's business do you think it is to monitor your daily comings and goings. Just use your commonsense and reveal only as little as your are required to anyone.

If you have an awkward relationship - shove off and find a more accommodating one.

 

The bit I've highlighted may be true in practice, but as far as the planning system is concerned it is the mooring which is residential not the boat, and that is likely to be true of any contract that stipulates how many nights you may spend on board at the marina. The concern is that you are not living at the mooring, not whether you are living on the boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

.............Fortunately not many marina owners act along similar lines as BWML who's only interest is screwing as much money out of the punter as he is prepared to put up with by applying for planning permission to operate a 'residential' business subject to business rates...........

 

 

We are in a BWML marina and they have very clear guidance on the leisure / residential situation and, in my mind, are not out to 'rape the punters'.

 

Leisure - you can liveaboard 365/366 days per year on your boat, on the mooring if you pay Council Tax on a house.

 

Residential - you live aboard 365/366 days per year on a mooring with planning permission for residential use and you pay CT which is included in the mooring fees.

 

A residential mooring (including CT, pump-outs etc etc) is £3799

A leisure mooring (excluding CT, pumpouts etc) for a 72 foot boat is £3300, for a 66 foot boat is £3000

[Naughty Cal]

The problem with this is it's not really up to the marina in the end. To put it another way, the marina might think it's ok to be there 11 months of the year, but the council might take a different view. As I've said before, I suspect it's highly unlikely that the council would take any action though.

Presumably not as its written into the mooring contracts.

[Alan de Enfield]

Presumably not as its written into the mooring contracts.

 

Is it writen as "only for 11 months of the year", or as "must spend 30 days away from the mooring in a calender year", or "must spend 30 days away from the mooring"

 

Our planning permision actualy stipulates the (month) dates on which the caravan park must be closed and no 'living aboard' is allowed.

[Dave_P]

Presumably not as its written into the mooring contracts.

Did the planning department of the council write the mooring contract?

[Higgs]

 

 

Leisure mooring as in a non-residential mooring, there being two aspects as to whether a mooring is residential:

• does it have planning permission for residential use?
• does the mooring provider (whether CRT or anyone else) permit residential use as a term of the mooring contract?

 

 

 

On your first point - yes. In which case you should have a postal address and be subject to council tax. On your second point - subject to availability, the mooring will be residential or leisure and specific terms and conditions will be applied, relevant to the mooring type.

[magpie patrick]

The problem with this is it's not really up to the marina in the end. To put it another way, the marina might think it's ok to be there 11 months of the year, but the council might take a different view. As I've said before, I suspect it's highly unlikely that the council would take any action though.

 

I'd agree. I think we both work in the same profession. You'd have to be a right pain in the backside for a council to want to take enforcement action, although a complaint would have to be investigated, my experience generally is that these investigations are geared towards not finding a problem (with the exception of whoever the local authority is at Abingdon Marina, who needed a polite letter to tell them that they were being a it silly).

 

I have actually had locals be against formalising liveaboard status on the grounds that when these moorings are unofficial people behave themselves...

 

 

Leisure - you can liveaboard 365/366 days per year on your boat, on the mooring if you pay Council Tax on a house.

 

 

 

The problem with that is I don't - I live in lodgings. Middle Class think coming to the fore again

[Naughty Cal]

Did the planning department of the council write the mooring contract?

No but they did write the permission for the "residential" mooring (yes that is just one out of over 200) and the "leisure" moorings.

 

Again presuming that they must have been aware of what the terms and conditions were to be for the "leisure" moorings.

 

Is it writen as "only for 11 months of the year", or as "must spend 30 days away from the mooring in a calender year", or "must spend 30 days away from the mooring"

 

Our planning permision actualy stipulates the (month) dates on which the caravan park must be closed and no 'living aboard' is allowed.

11 months of the year.

[14skipper]

All the answers are interesting.This arose from looking at the trust mooring auction web site,and noticing that about 99% of moorings seem to be "for leisure use ".

But looking at some of the prices being paid l have to ask myself why would you pay such high amounts for only leisure use.

 

14 Skipper

[Naughty Cal]

All the answers are interesting.This arose from looking at the trust mooring auction web site,and noticing that about 99% of moorings seem to be "for leisure use ".

But looking at some of the prices being paid l have to ask myself why would you pay such high amounts for only leisure use.

 

14 Skipper

So you can leave your boat somewhere and not have to move it?

[14skipper]

Nah

[Machpoint005]

 

We are in a BWML marina and they have very clear guidance on the leisure / residential situation and, in my mind, are not out to 'rape the punters'.

 

Leisure - you can liveaboard 365/366 days per year on your boat, on the mooring if you pay Council Tax on a house.

 

Residential - you live aboard 365/366 days per year on a mooring with planning permission for residential use and you pay CT which is included in the mooring fees.

 

A residential mooring (including CT, pump-outs etc etc) is £3799

A leisure mooring (excluding CT, pumpouts etc) for a 72 foot boat is £3300, for a 66 foot boat is £3000

 

This all seems perfectly fair to me. A leisure mooring is one occupied by a boat belonging to somebody whose permanent address is elsewhere (in the UK),

I would imagine BWML, being something akin to a public body, has to be careful to play by the rules.

 

 

The problem with that is I don't - I live in lodgings.

 

But you still have a permanent address - or what does it say on your driving licence, income tax returns, etc?

[Loafer]

 

This all seems perfectly fair to me. A leisure mooring is one occupied by a boat belonging to somebody whose permanent address is elsewhere (in the UK),

I would imagine BWML, being something akin to a public body, has to be careful to play by the rules.

 

 

But you still have a permanent address - or what does it say on your driving licence, income tax returns, etc?

 

In my case it's my brother's place down south.

[Machpoint005]

 

In my case it's my brother's place down south.

 

So long as your bro knows you live there I can't see a problem!

[Dave_P]

No but they did write the permission for the "residential" mooring (yes that is just one out of over 200) and the "leisure" moorings.

 

Again presuming that they must have been aware of what the terms and conditions were to be for the "leisure" moorings.

 

The council should have seen the t&cs but the officer dealing with the application would have had to assume that the t&cs could change. The correct way to manage that would be to place a condition on the planning approval stating that the leisure moorings had to be vacated for 1 month of the year. Given that the officer dealing with the application was unlikely to be a boater, I'd put money on that condition (if it even exists) being poorly worded and therefore unenforceable. Furthermore, any planning condition has to be, by it's nature, reasonable and enforceable. If a condition states something along the lines of "boats on leisure moorings must not have anyone living on them for one month of the year", that would require year round surveillance of the marina to ensure compliance. Therefore it would be classed as not reasonably enforceable and therefore not valid.