Nottingham boat sales

[Hawkmoth]

That being the case the company must be guilty under the client money rules and could be prosecuted surely. Individuals responsible for the misuse might not be able to hide behind the corporate veil. If they have used client money to fund the business that is at least theft and possibly fraudulent.

It may well be theft or fraudulent accounting, but all the lawyers or courts in the country can't get blood out of stone. If there is no money left, then 1 year jail sentence won't make you one penny richer. Very sad, but we've been there.

Bob

[Alanji]

Further to my above post, I did post in another thread about the risks. I cannot find it but the post and further details can be found in this newsletter http://livingonanarrowboat.co.uk/newsletter-archive/2014-03-16-newsletter-paying-for-a-narrowboat/

[Woodstock]

If a broker says they deposit into a ring fenced account-Is there any way to check its true before handing over your money?

[Alanji]

If a broker says they deposit into a ring fenced account-Is there any way to check its true before handing over your money?

Ask them to get their solicitor or accountant to confirm in writing that the monies will be held in a ring fenced client account and your monies would be safe and returned in the event of the co going into liquidation.

[Stilllearning]

This thread has got me wondering just which brokerages actually do have properly ring fenced client accounts. Does anyone know?

[Sabcat]

Have to admit that I am now concerned. I have been purposefully looking at boats through brokerage as I have had the impression that my money would be safer than just popping onto ebay and making a bid. Am now beginning to wonder as to how to buy a boat safely.

I'm not sure if it's the buyers or the sellers that would lose out in the event of a brockerage folding and the money being swallowed up by other debts. If you're buying I'm guessing you transfer for the cash, turn up and take the boat. What happens to the cash after that isn't your problem. Or am I missing something?

[David Mack]

I ended up paying in person by debit card and taking immediate possession of the boat.

 

But I don't think that gives you the protection you think. If the boat wasn't actually the property of the brokerage, it wasn't theirs to sell. They were only acting as agents for the vendor, so until he has received the money (less the brokerage fee) it is still his. You might have possession, but if the broker had gone bust before paying the vendor, you would have to hand the boat back (or buy it again), and then claim back from the receiver (along with all the other unsecured creditors).

 

Better to pay by credit card, then at least you can pursue your bank for the debt.

I'm not sure if it's the buyers or the sellers that would lose out in the event of a brockerage folding and the money being swallowed up by other debts. If you're buying I'm guessing you transfer for the cash, turn up and take the boat. What happens to the cash after that isn't your problem. Or am I missing something?

 

Same as my reply to Alanji. If they don't pay the vendor, he still owns the boat.

[Fatjoff]

That's worrying. I bought my boat through them in cash with my pension gratuity in May. I would like to think they'd have handed the money over to the vendor by now. If they come after me, that's my retirement plan all b*****ed up. Time to re-name the boat and slip off into the night! I did think it unusual that they wanted all the money up front mind before I even picked the boat up.

[Alanji]

 

But I don't think that gives you the protection you think. If the boat wasn't actually the property of the brokerage, it wasn't theirs to sell. They were only acting as agents for the vendor, so until he has received the money (less the brokerage fee) it is still his. You might have possession, but if the broker had gone bust before paying the vendor, you would have to hand the boat back (or buy it again), and then claim back from the receiver (along with all the other unsecured creditors).

 

Better to pay by credit card, then at least you can pursue your bank for the debt.

 

I received the completed and signed bill of sale simultaneous with paying so it was the vendor who was then at risk.

 

Credit card only gives protection for purchases under £30k so most sales would not be covered. One penny over £30k and you get no cover.

 

ETA signed by the vendor, not the broker.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Alanji

[Alan de Enfield]

David Mack, on 29 Sept 2014 - 2:24 PM, said:

 

Same as my reply to Alanji. If they don't pay the vendor, he still owns the boat.

 

I stand to be corrected by my learned friends - but - I dont believe that to be the case.

Legally - the broker is the Vendors agent, so by paying the broker, the buyer is paying the vendor.

 

It is not like a Farmer selling milk to Tesco, who then sells it to Jo Public, as the Farmers transaction is with Tesco, and it remains his 'propery' until paid for in full by Tesco, and it remains Tesco's property until paid for in full be Jo Public.

 

If you are selling your boat, but cannot make the meeting with the seller to collect the money, you send Tattoed Stan from the pub to collect it for you, on the promise 'you'll see him right with a pint or two'. He collects the money, gives the buyer a receipt to say they have paid, hands over the keys and the new owner disappears down the cut.

 

On the way back to the pub, with a pockefull of money, Stan decides a last minute holiday sounds a good idea, pops into the travel agents and gets himself off on a world cruise departing that afternoon.

 

Stan has stolen the money from you and your only possible action for recovery is to start a personal legal action against him.

 

If there is no 'client account', or there is, but it is empty - It is simple theft.

 

For boats on brokerage, but unsold, they need to produce proof of ownership (+ copy of the brokerage contract) to the Administrators which should enable them to recover their own boats (at their own costs)

Edited September 29, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[b0atman]

Surely time it was changed to a system where seller pays brokers commission after boat sold and all monies go from buyer direct to seller.

[Alan de Enfield]

Surely time it was changed to a system where seller pays brokers commission after boat sold and all monies go from buyer direct to seller.

 

No guarantee the broker would get paid.

The only way to "square the circle" is to sell it privately (maybe via Apollo Duck) and pay/receive cash - then you get in a mess with money laundering (above £10,000 cash)

 

There is no easy answer.

[PaulD]

Paul Lilley on the dark side complaining about companies not trading honourably and it's affect on the little people. Well he should know!

[raymondh]

Pages of stuff re brokers going bust here

 

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?301961-If-a-Broker-goes-bust-and-takes-the-Client-account-monies-with-them-who-loses-out

 

Ray

[Alan de Enfield]

Paul Lilley on the dark side complaining about companies not trading honourably and it's affect on the little people. Well he should know!

 

C'mon - play fair.

 

He is offering to put any boats on brokerage himself - and offer 3 months free moorings.

 

"I am concerned that people in our industry can operate like this - its always the 'little people' that lose the most"

[Athy]

 

Tattooed Stan from the pub.

 

 

What a brilliantly evocative name! Greeno for you for Name Of The Week (even though it's only Monday).

Edited September 29, 2014 by Athy

[Paul G2]

 

No guarantee the broker would get paid.

The only way to "square the circle" is to sell it privately (maybe via Apollo Duck) and pay/receive cash - then you get in a mess with money laundering (above £10,000 cash)

 

There is no easy answer.

 

Well, actually, there is an easy answer. You require brokers to be licensed and you require them to have a "trust account" - what you apparently refer to as a ring fence account. The trust account is strictly for other people's money and can't be touched by creditors, the tax man - no one! Brokers are required to carry a form of malpractice type insurance. Trust funds can be audited at any time by the licensing agency. Minor trust fund infractions result in license suspension or revocation, missing trust funds result in prison time.

 

Allowing brokers to take other people's money and mix it with their own is just insane! I was once a real estate broker (Owner of Estate Agency) and complying with the trust fund requirements was easy.

[Trillian]

I'm not sure if it's the buyers or the sellers that would lose out in the event of a brockerage folding and the money being swallowed up by other debts. If you're buying I'm guessing you transfer for the cash, turn up and take the boat. What happens to the cash after that isn't your problem. Or am I missing something?

 

I guess my concern is if I buy through a brokerage, I pay and take the boat but they don't pass the money on can the seller claim the boat is still theirs?

 

In a way I can't help but feel that a sale is not properly complete until the vendor has the cash.

 

edited for poor grammar

Edited September 29, 2014 by Trillian

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Well, actually, there is an easy answer. You require brokers to be licensed and you require them to have a "trust account" - what you apparently refer to as a ring fence account. The trust account is strictly for other people's money and can't be touched by creditors, the tax man - no one! Brokers are required to carry a form of malpractice type insurance. Trust funds can be audited at any time by the licensing agency. Minor trust fund infractions result in license suspension or revocation, missing trust funds result in prison time.

 

Allowing brokers to take other people's money and mix it with their own is just insane! I was once a real estate broker (Owner of Estate Agency) and complying with the trust fund requirements was easy.

 

Just like Marine Sureyors, Marine Brokerage companies come under absolutely no legislation, or operating conditions at all.

Any individual can claim to be a 'Broker' - As witnessed by the fact that BWML evicted a boat from one of its marinas in London (Poplar - I think) for running an internet brokerage business from his boat.

 

It is a legal requirement for Solicitors, Accountants etc to have "Client Accounts" and should those client accounts get 'used' (which they do on a fairly regular basis - but there ar 10's of thousands of them so it is only a small %) there is in place an insurance sheme controlled by their governing body to ensure that the 'little guy' does not loose out.

 

I think it unlikely that Parliament would consider finding time for the passage of a bill covering Boat Brokers and Surveyors to ensure that they are all acting under the control of an over arching body operating within Legal given powers.

 

I guess my concern is if I buy through a brokerage, I pay and take the boat but they don't pass the money on can the seller claim the boat is still theirs?

 

In a way I can't help but feel that a sale is properly complete until the vendor has the cash.

 

No - you have paid the seller (sellers agent) you have a receipt issued by the seller (sellers agent), the boat is yours.

[Paul G2]

 

I think it unlikely that Parliament would consider finding time for the passage of a bill covering Boat Brokers and Surveyors to ensure that they are all acting under the control of an over arching body operating within Legal given powers.

 

 

Obviously you would know more about the political climate than I do, it just seems absurd that that an entire industry like that would go unregulated.

 

Some of the things I read about your country and the way that certain things are micro-managed and taxed, it's pretty apparent that your government is no stranger to bureaucracy. One would think that it wouldn't be that difficult to find an existing agency to oversee and regulate brokerages.

 

What really blows me away is that you don't have title certificates for watercraft. How hard would it be to issue ownership documents and have a registry and means of transferring title? The vast majority of vessels are already licensed. Initiating ownership records and documents wouldn't be all that hard.

[Athy]

 

.

 

What really blows me away is that you don't have title certificates for watercraft.

Though I might not use your vivid phraseology, I totally agree that it does seem like a quaint throwback to the days when one's word was one's bond, what-ho. Imagine if a similar system, or lack of one, were in place for cars!

The only disadvantage might be that any such system would doubtless incur expense, but that might be acceptable if it brought security and transparency to the boat market.

[SoosieQ]

I have to say i find Mr Lillies comments in exceedingly bad taste.....is his memory really that poor? He stiffed a charity for 180k while continuing to draw a very large salary,drive a very nice car,take lots of foreign holidays and plenty of jollies paid for by his almost bankrupt business, but thats all forgotten is it? Not here it isnt! The man is an idiot who has the gall to call out another for doing much the same!!

Edited September 29, 2014 by SoosieQ

[Traveller]

 

Just like Marine Sureyors, Marine Brokerage companies come under absolutely no legislation, or operating conditions at all.

Any individual can claim to be a 'Broker' - As witnessed by the fact that BWML evicted a boat from one of its marinas in London (Poplar - I think) for running an internet brokerage business from his boat.

 

It is a legal requirement for Solicitors, Accountants etc to have "Client Accounts" and should those client accounts get 'used' (which they do on a fairly regular basis - but there ar 10's of thousands of them so it is only a small %) there is in place an insurance sheme controlled by their governing body to ensure that the 'little guy' does not loose out.

 

I think it unlikely that Parliament would consider finding time for the passage of a bill covering Boat Brokers and Surveyors to ensure that they are all acting under the control of an over arching body operating within Legal given powers.

 

No - you have paid the seller (sellers agent) you have a receipt issued by the seller (sellers agent), the boat is yours.

Maybe but surely if a broker says it has a trust account and does not then that is fraud. Also if a broker says it has a trust account you would (or I would) expect the auditors to check it and especially check it to ensure the company was not using client money to run what is an insolvent business.

 

I suppose a clean way would be for brokers to run a trust/escrow account outside of their own books, perhaps with a trust bank or solicitor.

 

The question of legal ownership is an interesting one and I lean towards the fact that the broker is the vendors agent and therefore the vendors risk.

[Alan de Enfield]

The UK Government already has a boat registration and proof of ownership scheme called (surprisingly)

 

"The Small Ships Register" https://www.gov.uk/register-a-boat/the-uk-ship-register

 

It covers all small boats up to 24 metres long, you can have :

 

Part III - registration, etc. or

Part I - Proof of Ownership

 

When we had Sea-Going boats we were always SSR, as once you gave the SSR number, they could find out all the needed to know in an emergency, home address, home port, next of kin etc etc.

 

There is no legal requirement for this, membership is purely voluntary.

I think that over the years the 'Inland waterways' folk have fought to remain outside and shipping controls and have valued the 'historical freedoms' and it is now (occasionally) coming to bite them in the bum.

[Athy]

is it not extraordinary that, if NBS have ceased trading, they still have over 70 boats listed for sale on Apollo Duck, and their own web site remains open and, indeed, shows that it has been updated today? How can this be?