Wooden narrowboat

[pbuk]

Thank you for the additional posts, experiences and advice - I won't be making a purchase lightly and though I do enjoy working with wood, augmenting my knowledge and learning new skills - a wooden boat of this size though may be too much for me to take on. I guess it is up to me to make the final judgement call.

 

C'mon Richard, I am aware that 'run away' is used as a figure of speech. :-) :-)....

 

It doesn't offend me but to me it means 'don't consider it any further' which isn't that constructive. I want to consider things in as much detail as I can before I make a decision...then I can find out and learn. The more info I can get - and on this forum is a really good place to get it - the better I can consider and the more informed my decision will be.

 

I'm also aware that I'll be caulking the boat should I buy it - I'll have caulking parties I think, my friends can come over and help, I may even run some caulking courses - there's an idea! £10 for half a day. Any takers? It's very therapeutic I'm told :-)

 

Just for added information - a fellow called Jem Bates has done, or at least supervised, most of the work on this boat.

[Hairy Animal]

We bought a wooden boat (1926, narrowboat dimensions, cruiser style) nearly two years ago, knowing she needed a considerable amount of work. The restoration has generated far more work, and hence time & expense, than originally expected because a lot of problems have come to light as parts have been exposed. These couldn't have been foreseen by the surveyor whose comprehensive report we based our original estimates on.

 

As others have said, a wooden boat requires much more maintenance than steel, but also be prepared for some expensive surprises!

[smileypete]

Maybe look for a part completed project or restoration that's had to stop for some reason, that way it's more likely all the problems have been revealed.

 

Or try a smaller fixer upper that mainly needs cosmetic work, to get your feet wet (in boat repairing skills thatis)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited August 16, 2014 by smileypete

[FadeToScarlet]

https://flic.kr/p/oKduvm]Picture No. 10155748[/url

Rumour has it that it's not Starcross, but another unknown boat.

Edit to clarify- the rumour is that it is another boat renamed as Starcross. Still historic, though.

Edited August 16, 2014 by FadeToScarlet

[MtB]

Ok - as a newbie forum member, I have to protest a bit...

 

I've posted about a couple of boats on here in order to get advice and insight from those more experienced than I as yes, I'm a first time buyer, but guys and gals, with all due respect, that doesn't make me stupid :-) Lots of people have been very generous taking the time to offer words of wisdom and I'm extremely grateful to them, what I don't really understand are the 'run away, run a mile' statements and a few comments that are well,..... supercilious and a little patronising.

 

I'm going to be buying a used boat for sure and like anything that has been used or pre-owned it will come with a degree of risk, of course. As a diligent buyer I want to be as informed as I can be so as to minimise that risk - you know how it is...remember when you bought your first boat - so I'm researching as much as I can and hoping that folk on here will furnish me with insightful nuggets of knowledge.

 

A large degree of what I've garnered from this forum has been fantastically helpful and much advice has been given by members in the way of 'consider this and that, the pro's and cons' etc. which is great, but while I don't want people to tell me what I want to hear, the finite sweeping statements of doom and gloom are not very constructive - I'm just saying.

 

A chap on a different thread to this who told me to 'run a mile' from another boat also said 'there are loads of boats out there' but for me personally there isn't. An important criteria for me is that as well as the boat being between 65 and 72 ft, it also has to be a bit different. It has to have character, so that means I'm probably looking at something old or in this case a wooden boat, particularly for the budget I have. I'm not averse to doing a bit of work and I am handy but my job can take me away quite a lot so major maintenance or refurbishment is not ideal.

 

I'm going to go and see Starcross next week out of the water and also another Butty, a steel hulled one, in Cambridge and I won't be running away from either of them or any boat I see for that matter. I'll do what we all do - I'll weigh up the situation according to my personal preferences and take the risk of purchase or not... If not, I'll walk away, having learnt a little more about this fascinating world of narrowboating. :-)

 

I hope you are not including me in this. I told you to 'run a mile' IIRC but backed it up with sound facts and reasoning.

 

MtB

P.S. For an interesting boat that is less of a maintenance millstone, I suggest you look at some riveted iron boats.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Stick with the wooden boat but nail or glue washers on, then when blacked it'll look like a riveted hull.

 

 

Glenn

[furnessvale]

 

A chap on a different thread to this who told me to 'run a mile' from another boat also said 'there are loads of boats out there' but for me personally there isn't. An important criteria for me is that as well as the boat being between 65 and 72 ft, it also has to be a bit different. It has to have character, so that means I'm probably looking at something old or in this case a wooden boat, particularly for the budget I have. I'm not averse to doing a bit of work and I am handy but my job can take me away quite a lot so major maintenance or refurbishment is not ideal.

 

Those six words are the nub of the issue.

 

An old wooden working boat has an initial purchase price far cheaper than its iron/steel equivalent for one basic reason, the long term maintenance costs are much higher. If you factor that in, you will need at least the same budget, if not more.

 

The southern GU is littered( or was a few years ago) with old wooden working boats, quietly rotting away, having been bought cheaply as liveaboards with the owners having no hope of keeping up the required maintenance.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[John Williamson 1955]

Thank you for the additional posts, experiences and advice - I won't be making a purchase lightly and though I do enjoy working with wood, augmenting my knowledge and learning new skills - a wooden boat of this size though may be too much for me to take on. I guess it is up to me to make the final judgement call.

 

It is indeed your call, but have you allowed for the unfortunate fact that if you spend, £20k on a wooden boat to buy it, you may well end up spending that or more in a couple of years on maintenance, especially if you are relying on others to do the work?

 

I like wooden boats, and have owned one or two in the past, but all of them (Luckily they weren't historically important in any way) have ended up being disposed of in one way or another, and they all ended up resting on the bottom at relatively short intervals when they should have been floating. They take a lot of time, money and commitment to keep in good order.

[John Williamson 1955]

The southern GU is littered( or was a few years ago) with old wooden working boats, quietly rotting away, having been bought cheaply as liveaboards with the owners having no hope of keeping up the required maintenance.

 

 

I regularly pass a pair of these, and while the outer of the pair is sort of okay-ish, I always slow right down when passing, as the hull looks rotten and soft even from a few yards away, and the one next to the bank appears to have half the bow missing, and I'm not sure whether she's floating or just quietly resting on the bottom. They are currently being lived on, but I'm afraid that the bowless one wouldn't survive a trip to a dock where she could be repaired, even if the owner could afford what would likely be approaching a six figure sum for a full restoration. Lifting either of them out would need a cradle fabricating which would give them full support over their entire lengths.

[peterboat]

I remember Heart of Oak being built a few years ago and then sinking within a few years dont know what happened to her but she was a pretty boat just like the one you are looking at. For me I would look at a steel boat listening to what you are saying about being away for periods of time

 

Peter

[carlt]

 

 

 

 

They deteriorate frighteningly fast compared to steel boats. And Carl will be along shortly to say I'm talking rubbish!

 

 

Lucy was docked twice in 40 odd years and still managed to cc for a couple of years and floated down to Braunston for her rebuild after lying sunken for 2 years.

 

Taplow docked once that I'm aware of between the late 50s and me docking her in 2000 and was in amazingly good order.

 

Starcross was cced for many years with minimal maintenance before having money chucked at her.

 

It is fair to say that most wooden boats are allowed to deteriorate further than most metal boats but they do it frighteningly slowly, compared to a metal boat that has had the same amount of abuse.

 

I've seen 10 year old steel boats with teabag bottoms and wafer thin waterlines yet you could still see the original saw marks on Usk's 30 year old elm bottoms.

 

That said I believe Starcross is ridiculously overpriced unless it has a £20k fitout.

[MtB]

And just to add a bit of balance, here's the LUCY mentioned above by Carl, showing what happens to a wooden butty left neglected for (presumably less than) 38 years...

 

 

 

And here is the LUCY in re-build. Some wonderful work being done:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And another neglected wooden butty (not sure which it is, or how long it has been since it was in good nick):

 

 

 

The thing is, cruising around one occasionally sees wooden narrowboats and usually they are wrecks. And a thread the OP might like to read discussing the sad state of one or two other wooden narrowboats around:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65771&hl=hesperus#entry1288251

 

 

And again, for balance, a link to the Wooden Canal Boat Society with some nice wooden NBs:

 

http://wcbs.org.uk/

 

 

The problem is, as I see it, the OP's declared limited budget. I still still maintain that when a wooden boat starts to go wrong, it needs money and effort throwing at it quickly, or things go downhill must faster than with a steel boat.

 

MtB

[billS]

Lucy was docked twice in 40 odd years and still managed to cc for a couple of years and floated down to Braunston for her rebuild after lying sunken for 2 years.

 

 

Wasn't it the tarpaulin that floated? I don't think the example of Lucy really proves your point. If I recall correctly, less than 10% of the material present at the time of lift out is fit for reuse in the rebuild.

[ditchcrawler]

No it's this gal called Starcross - here it is http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=356770

Hope you are not planning to go to far, someone has pinched the engine.

[carlt]

 

Wasn't it the tarpaulin that floated? I don't think the example of Lucy really proves your point. If I recall correctly, less than 10% of the material present at the time of lift out is fit for reuse in the rebuild.

No the tarpaulin was passed under the floating boat. I'm guessing you've never attempted to pass a tarpaulin under a sunken boat.

 

The very fact that it was floating despite less than 10% being salvageable proves my point entirely.

 

A steel boat with less than 10% of salvageable metal wouldn't even be boat shaped.

 

And again, for balance, a link to the Wooden Canal Boat Society with some nice wooden NBs:

 

http://wcbs.org.uk/

 

 

A strange choice considering Chris has had exactly the same criticisms laid at his door as you have laid at mine.

Edited August 18, 2014 by carlt

[stagedamager]

Hazel is back on the market......

[billS]

The very fact that it was floating despite less than 10% being salvageable proves my point entirely.

 

 

No - not really, but never mind.

[Ian Mac]

 

Slightly off topic but Spey was on the Fossdyke last weekend on the long term moorings. Not sure if its staying or just visiting though.

Seen in Newark this evening, heading south I believe.

[Ian Mac]

Anybody have any experience of owning a wooden hull narrowboat? I'm considering purchasing one and just wondered if there is anything I should look out for? I'm lucky enough to be able to see the boat out of the water next week.

 

Thank you for any help.

Yes as it has been said they cost a bomb to maintain in good condition. Planks last about 20-30 yrs once steamed, so that's any bent plank. If a leak develops you do not have long to get on top of it before it starts to rot the planks below it from the inside outwards. Rot is the problem, a sharp 6d woolworths electrical screwdriver is all you need if it goes into the timber its rotten. Rain rots planks. check between the shearing from the inside outwards as well as outside inwards. To slow down rot regular application of tar and caulking is require, probably once a year, for a week. It takes a good few people to caulk a boat so you need lots of mates.Most wooden boats fail because they are not regularly maintained. Exceptions I know are Joel, Spey, Daffney all of which get regular maintenance.

Would a buy one again, if I was 20, I've been really luck to own one this time around with a dedicated group of mates so that has worked, those boats without a group behind them nearly all fail. There are some wonderful exceptions to that rule but they are nearly always due to the superb craftsmanship of the owners, who are true wooden boat builders, or fabulously rich!

So are you a craftsman, very rich, or a group, if not don't touch a wooden boat.

[MtB]

Ian, are you finding SPEY as easy, or easier to maintain than a modern steel NB would be, as Carl suggests would be the case?

 

MtB

 

Edit to add, looks like you've answered my question even though our posts crossed!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[stagedamager]

Pbuk, if Starcross doesn't work out, I may know of a riveted iron butty which may be on the market, steel ellum ready for hydraulic or electric drive, steel works complete,and ready to put your mark on!

Dan

[George94]

To successfully own an old wooden boat other than a dinghy you have to fall into one of two quite small categories.

 

You need to be either a millionaire, or a fanatic.

 

If you are neither, get a steel boat.

 

No matter what some fanatics may claim (remember - they're fanatics), a wooden boat is liable to cost far more money, time, and sanity than you could possibly imagine.

 

By the way, I don't wish to tar all fanatics with the same brush. Many are quite reasonable people, like Ian Mac, above. He has given an honest assessment.

[Speedwheel]

Pbuk, if Starcross doesn't work out, I may know of a riveted iron butty which may be on the market, steel ellum ready for hydraulic or electric drive, steel works complete,and ready to put your mark on!

Dan

 

What, again?

 

Are you going a bit (Hazel) nuts?

[stagedamager]

Nah not at all, I thought they were always on the market if the situation was right?

[pbuk]

Hi Dan,

 

Thanks for letting me know about that boat. We decided not to pursue Starcross in the end and are hopefully just about to wrap up buying another boat - our offer has been accepted and now just hoping it gets through the survey with no major problems.