The price of a narrowboat?

[Hanzbebe]

Hi all,

 

How do you know if a narrowboat is worth what the seller is asking for it? Wanted to live on canals since I was young but as narrowboats seem to vary in price a lot - what to make sure I'm getting the best deal for my money? And also does anyone tend to pay the full asking price or how much to offer on a ovno?

 

New to all this, so just seeing people's opinions?

 

 

Basic gist is - 52 foot narrowboat from about 1989 - wants about £31,500 - has basic kitchen, shower room, bedroom and lounge space. Nice interior - engine looks clean.(not sure what I know about them though) LOL

 

Any thoughts?

 

BTW - as it's a private sale - does everyone get a survey or go through a solicitor for exchanging cash?

 

Or do people just take the plunge and see it as life experience if things go wrong - I do truly believe I can adapt to boat life - I'm just a natural worrier and need to start taking some risks - like my boyfriend says - " We spend so much time saying we will do things and how many people actually do them - if you don't take a risk in life - then you will never know"

 

Appreciate answers in advance

 

 

[Tuscan]

How many have you looked at? Travel around to marinas and have a look. Walk the towpath and talk to boaters re the layout they have and see which suits you. There is a huge variety of price based on builder and whether the fit out was professionally done or not. Boats are worth what someone wants to pay for them but always make an offer and if you have limited experience definitely get a survey.

[bigste]

As a new buyer you should not consider buying without a survey. As for price, nobody pays the asking price and unless your 89 NB is exceptional I'd say 25k is more realistic but there are too many variables to price up a boat without seeing it. It is unlikely you'll see a boat of that age for much more than that price but you'll you'll certainly see them for a lot less, maybe 10k less.

[YamYam]

How many have you looked at? Travel around to marinas and have a look. Walk the towpath and talk to boaters re the layout they have and see which suits you. There is a huge variety of price based on builder and whether the fit out was professionally done or not. Boats are worth what someone wants to pay for them but always make an offer and if you have limited experience definitely get a survey.

 

As above, esp the survey. The surveyors report will also tell you if the asking price is fair or your dealing with another dreamer

[Alan de Enfield]

It really is a difficult question - a very good comparison would be the car market.

 

You can get a home made kit-car, a Lada, a Ford, a Landrover, a Mercedes or a Rolls Royce, all about the same size and all can go from A-B carrying 4 or 5 passengers, and all will arrive at about the same time.

 

It is the same with narrowboats, there are home-made jobbies, bottom of the market mass produced, middle of the road or high-end quality boats, Many boat Hull manufacturers also supply their Hulls to other people or companies to do the internal fit-out, again this could be Mr Fix-It the DIY'er (whose biggest job was putting up a shelf) to a specialist cabinet building firm etc etc.

 

Then there is 'how has it been maintained ?' - has the steel been regularly painted and the bottom blacked, has the engine had an oil change every 100 hours, etc etc.

 

Depending on the circumstances the "well maintained Ford Mondeo" could be a better buy that the "abandoned, unloved Rolls Royce"

 

A survey will highlight questions that you need to consider, but a survey will probably not find all the faults. It should show you if the bottom is sound but dont rely on it to show much else.

 

If the surveyor says its 'OK' and you later find it isnt then you have no come-back on the surveyor, if you dont have a survey and you later find faults - its our own 'fault'.

 

(It sounds very 'harsh') - at the end of the day buying a secondhand boat is inherently risky dont spend more than you can afford to loose.

 

There are very experienced folks on this forum who do a boat evaluation / valuation service for nervous first time buyers, or buyers unable to 'travel the country' - maybe one of them could help ?

[Richard10002]

As a new buyer you should not consider buying without a survey. As for price, nobody pays the asking price and unless your 89 NB is exceptional I'd say 25k is more realistic but there are too many variables to price up a boat without seeing it. It is unlikely you'll see a boat of that age for much more than that price but you'll you'll certainly see them for a lot less, maybe 10k less.

I looked at lots of boats online, and got a vague idea of what kind of boat I wanted, and how much it might cost/be asking. I then looked at lots of boats in the flesh. I established that I would pay around £25k for what I wanted - 40-50ft, cruiser stern, in reasonably nice condition. I missed a few boats I liked because they had sold by the time I considered offering.

 

When I saw Fevre Dream, I went to see it as soon as I could, looked around, went for a coffee to confirm that my wife was happy to buy, then offered ...... THE ASKING PRICE!!! I would happily have paid more.

 

It was £18,000, and a surveyor confirmed it needed a bit doing, but it was a great deal. 45ft cruiser stern, built in 2001. Needed new batteries, chimney and gas cowl sealing, blacking. It didn't have an inverter and only a 25A charger. Hull as thick as the day it was built.

 

So you can never say that nobody pays the asking price - It always depends what the asking price is, in relation to the boat and it's competitors.

 

It's easy to trawl online. It's fairly easy to look at about 20 boats over a few weeks. By that time you get a flavour of the market, and will know what to offer for what, (roughly). If you miss a few that you would have offered on, you get an even better feel for things. A survey will confirm that you have done the right thing, or give you a chance to walk away, or negotiate, or stick to your offer - which might have been the asking price.

[Grace and Favour]

Hanzbebe,

 

Whilst none of us know which boat you're looking at, my first reaction would be that +£31k seems expensive for a 'basic 1989 boat.' (But there can be so very many variables - it is genuinely impossible to give a guide sight unseen, of course)

 

As others have said, look at other boats - - LOADS of them.- - look at boats until your head spins - and you'll start to appreciate what the price regime is for the type of boat that you're after. (We spent 6 months looking - and cannot remember how many we looked at!)

 

You may also find that the type of boat you eventually buy will be different from what you thought you wanted (as other designs and facilities increase their appeal)

 

Certainly - for a newcomer to boating, I would strongly advise that a full boat survey is undertaken before purchase, - - and remember - the purpose of this survey is to find things out about the boat that you are unlikely to discover yourself, particularly the condition of the hull.

Always spend the day with the surveyor - - ask him questions as he works, (and take notes), and don't hesitate to ask even the most basic questions - it'll help you understand things better.

You can also ask him his opinion on what value the boat should be.

 

And remember, the survey might cost £1k (including dry dock fees etc), if the survey produces a result that the boat will be dearer to repair than you can afford, or is unsafe, then you must be prepared to walk away - - and tell yourself that £1,000 spent has saved you many £,000's of repairs.

[Hanzbebe]

Well it has solar panels, and central heating and a small TV - and the inside has been decked out in a nice wooden finish -

 

Just trying to work it all out - appreciate your comments.

[Athy]

Who built it? This can be a major factor in establishing a reasonable price. For example, a Colecraft of that age would normally sell for more than a Springer.

[Alan de Enfield]

Well it has solar panels, and central heating and a small TV - and the inside has been decked out in a nice wooden finish -

 

Just trying to work it all out - appreciate your comments.

 

Whilst it is nice to have a 'visual appeal' and all the bits and pieces, the TV and Solar panels can be purchased for a couple of hundred pounds so should not be the decider for buying a boat.

 

The two most expensive (to replace) and critical components of the boat are :-

 

1) The Hull - if it needs overplating it could cost £5000-£10,000. It needs to be 'sound'

2) The Engine - if it needs rebuilding or replacing then it could run anything up towards £5000

 

Anything else (fridge, cooker, fire etc etc) can be replaced for a 'few hundred' each.

 

I would have thought that for "low £30k's" you be able to pick up a late 90's 45 to 50 footer in good to excellent condition.

[bigste]

Ok Richard you got me there but lets be honest,your seller was one of the few realistic ones when it comes to price.

[kevinl]

I'll echo G&F's comment, look at boats until your head spins after a while you'll start to get an eye for what's good and what's bad and you'll be able to do some comparisons, when you start saying "this is 10k more that that one you have to be joking" then you're getting there.

It's all in the detail outside paintwork, general condition of the hull, engine clean with tidy electrics no oil leaks, inside the quality of the finish similar to looking at houses bathroom and kitchen are the 2 I look at first.

Although much maligned you could do worse than go to Wilton marina and take a look at the boats there or anywhere that has a big selection, just have a look round and get some idea of the range of boats and what to expect for your money the only way to value one is to see what else is up for the same price and then decide.

As you're new then get a survey or at least a hull survey so you know it isn't going to sink and be prepared to pay the asking price, many owners do hold out for it and if you're not then be prepared to swallow the cost of the survey if it finds nothing wrong then why should they drop the price. Now get out there and look

K

[BrumSaint]

On your first point, about knowing if the value of boat you're looking is fair or not. When we were looking to buy a boat I set up a spreadsheet and initially recorded the price, age and length of the boat, and calculated the price per foot (I added other varables later, to help with my final selection). I then plotted on a chart the age of the boat against the price per foot. This produced a curved line where (more or less) the newer more expensive boats are at one end and older cheaper boats at the other. It was easy to see from this boats that were seriously overpriced (above the line), those that were a close match to the line and therefore about the average price (for that age and length of boat)and those that might be a bargain (under the line).

 

The boat you're interested in is £606 per foot and falls just below the curved line in my chart. Word of warning though, I was not looking at boats that old so that is an outlier in the results and althought it seems a reasonabe price compared to the others I was looking at (all under 15 years old), as it is the only boat of that age it may not be representative of similar aged/length boats.

 

Your second point about the actual purchase. First for piece of mind make sure you have a survey, before you part with any serious money. In my case, I told the seller that forking out £500 for a survey was sufficient proof of my seriousness (we did sign an agreement however that I wouldn't renegoiate or pull out unless a) there was a problem with the hull or something else that made the boat unsafe, or more than £500 worth of work was identified).

 

Secondly using a solicitor can not guarantee that the person selling the boat actually owns it. As I guess you already know, unlike cars and houses, there is no central register of who owns a narrowboat. When we were buying our boat I spoke to a marine solicitor (got the name from a newspaper article where he had successfully secured title to a boat from a bankrupt builder for his client) he told me that, as far as ownership of narrow boats is concerned, solicitors could only carry out the same checks as as any other person.

 

His advice was to carry out my own checks on both the seller and the paperwork trail, that should come with a boat (In my case there was paper work from the orginal builder and subsequent bills of sale to the various successive owners and various bills the current owner had paid - C&RT Licence, insurance etc). In the end he said it comes down to you looking the seller in the eye and beleiving them when they say they are the legal owner of the (whole) boat and they have the right to sell it to you.

 

My own checks on the seller included speaking to the farmer whose field the boat was moored at and speaking to other boats owners at the moorings. On one of the visits to the boat as part of the general disccussion we discover what he did for a living and who he worked for. A google search confirmed the info and even had a picture of him on the company website. I was reasonably happy at that point, but my wife however was still not convinced it wasn't a scam until the moment we turned into the mooring and the seller was there with the keys and the boat.

 

Finally all the money was paid via electronic transfer, not 100% safe, but at least there is an audit trail and with the other checks (about the sellers background)there would be something for the police to investigate if it all went wrong.

 

Edited to remove unintenional smilely (hope its gone).

2nd edit No it's still there - the smilely is supposed to be point b. (hope that makes sense)

Edited July 4, 2014 by BrumSaint

[OldGoldy]

You don't say, but if you haven't already, you would be well advised to hire a boat for a week or two, to see if you actually like the lifestyle.

 

We have had one or two members in our club in recent years that have bought a first time boat as complete newbies, gone out on it a couple of times and then decided it wasn't for them and sold the boat on.

[Hanzbebe]

I love narrowboats - done several cruises previously and enjoy the quiet lifestyle - I am what people call sad usually as I don't want to conform with modern society in most ways - and I enjoy the outdoors etc

[Athy]

I love narrowboats and enjoy the quiet lifestyle

.....as we can see from the photo of your dull, anonymous motor car.

I am what people call sad usually as I don't want to conform with modern society in most ways

Then (and this time I'm not joking) you should fit in well. The only thing, apart from boats, that boaters have in common is that they're all different.

[Hanzbebe]

I do like quiet lifestyle - the car is a NASCAR - I am a Kyle Busch follower Just a interest

[Athy]

I am a Kyle Busch follower.

Is that some form of horticulture?

[Chalky]

Don't rely on a survey that is recent. My brother in law bought a boat (without asking for advice). When I asked him about a survey he said that the previous owner had done one 4 years earlier and it was ok so he bought the boat. Less than a year later he had to pay for an emergency crane out on a bank holiday weekend and a complete overplate. Overall his relying on an old survey cost him about £7000. If you're interested in a boat get your own survey done.

[Neil2]

It can be confusing, not to say bewildering, observing the narrowboat market. The problem is most narrowboats are unique, save for ex hire boats, so there's no way to make a valuation on a comparative basis like cars - or even grp cruisers.

 

Sadly most boats, certainly in private sales but often on brokerage as well, are priced based on what the owner originally paid, regardless of whether the boat has been well looked after. This is why many people looking at boats for the first time often recoil in horror when they start looking, particularly at the budget end of the market.

 

The stock advice for someone new to boating, any type of boating, is buy something that you know will be easy to resell because you will want to sell it once you have done a bit of cruising and found out what you really want.

 

And once you know exactly what you are looking for the question of value becomes a lot clearer as you focus on what the boat is worth to you.

[PhilR]

I do like quiet lifestyle - the car is a NASCAR - I am a Kyle Busch follower Just a interest

 

That might be interesting - but it doesn't help much in your search for the pros and cons of buying a boat.

 

Who built it? What engine does it have? What is the condition of the hull? might be more relevant for most buyers.

 

Who is Kyle Busch and who makes the NASCAR? - not that it is relevant.- just my curiosity.

[Athy]

To be fair to Hannah, she has been asking relevant questions via PM.

[Alan de Enfield]

To be fair to Hannah, she has been asking relevant questions via PM.

 

Indeed she has, and some very, very relevant questions and thoughts - but I think her mind is made up on the 'unknown shell with the DIY fit out and the DIY Ford Fiesta Engine installation'

[muddywaters]

 

Whilst it is nice to have a 'visual appeal' and all the bits and pieces, the TV and Solar panels can be purchased for a couple of hundred pounds so should not be the decider for buying a boat.

 

The two most expensive (to replace) and critical components of the boat are :-

 

1) The Hull - if it needs overplating it could cost £5000-£10,000. It needs to be 'sound'

2) The Engine - if it needs rebuilding or replacing then it could run anything up towards £5000

 

Anything else (fridge, cooker, fire etc etc) can be replaced for a 'few hundred' each.

 

I would have thought that for "low £30k's" you be able to pick up a late 90's 45 to 50 footer in good to excellent condition.

That's my priority's in my hunt for a boat, 1, hull 2 engine.

Everything else is a bonus

[Daiboy]

I must have been VERY lucky in my purchase. I looked at the various adverts (Apollo duck not withstanding) and searched for my dream boat. I had around £30,000 to spend and wanted a 50 foot (ish) cruiser stern narrowboat.

 

I gathered together around 6 boats to look at throughout the country and with my mate in tow did a 300 mile round trip to look at them. I had it down to 2 boats. Went to my local pub to discuss the outcome of our journey when a friend of mine asked as to the finding of our search. As I was explaining to him of our results his wife came along and said that her hairdresser was selling her boat which was a long metal thing.

 

After getting more information and especially her phone number I arranged for a meet on the Sunday. Fell in love with the boat at first glance. No survey done (maybe foolish I know) it had one (out of the water) done 3 years previous, and bought it there and then (£26,500)

 

This was 3 years ago. A 1975 Hancock & Lane Norsman Hull with washing machine, tumble drier, 32" tv, double bed and everything else I could want. My insurance company (Collidge & Parts) needed a full out of the water hull survey and valuation for my renewal in July this year as the last survey was of course about 7 years ago. Fair deal.

 

Just had the results through. No overplating has been done and none needed. A few bits of pitting around the water line but nothing a good blasting back to bare metal, a coat of epoxy primer, filling with epoxy filler (the name of which I shall find out and let you know), 2 coats of epoxy blacking and the job is done. The surveyor said that as for the age of my boat, the hull was in very good shape and the overall condition was excellent.

 

Go with your instincts and your sight.