Honda Eu20i shore power connection query

[KJT]

I have just bought a Honda Eu20i genny. I have searched the topics and there is plenty about the Honda but nothing it seems about my query.

 

I have connected it to my shore power socket and it is charging via my Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 at around 50 amps, which seems fine.

 

However, I am getting both the correct AND reversed polarity lights indicating on my shore power selector panel. Although the Victron seems to be accepting it, I shut the genny down immediately to (hopefully) prevent any possible damage. The Victron is still operating normally so it doesn't seem to have upset it.

Reading previous topics there may be an issue with bonding N and E with this genny as I believe it has a floating earth (whatever that is). I haven't modified the shore power lead. I see some guys modify their shore lead and mark it specifically for use with the generator. Is that something to do with my polarity issue, or may it be something different? Should I modify the lead anyway? If so, I would very much appreciate how exactly it should be modified.

 

Thanks

Ken

[Paul G2]

If you think about it, your genset doesn't have a proper earth. You could put the genny on a plastic box atop a rubber mat and it will function properly. As far as your panel is concerned, you neutral is hooked up properly (correct polarity) but your earth is connected to the neutral (reversed polarity), and that is why both lights are lit, I would imagine.

 

Your Victron has a generator input. If you want to be able to plug and unplug your genny, hook up a cord & socket to the proper input on the Victron and leave your shore power intact to use shore power.

 

That Victron is a nice unit. Use it to it's full potential instead of trying to Mickey Mouse a go-around. That should be a cardinal rule when it comes to electricity and carbon monoxide. If you do things by the rules and use stuff the way it is designed, you'll be a lot safer, and a lot happier because things will work properly.

 

Accomplishing what you want to accomplish with a cord isn't rocket science, and someone will no doubt come along and explain how to do it. But you should at least consider hooking up a proper-size cable from the generator to the proper inverter input.

[KJT]

Thanks Paul.

 

Is not the 'proper inverter input' the normal shore power socket? I am using the standard 16 amp shore power lead which plugs directly into the genny. I haven't modified it in any way. I didn't think I was trying to engineer a Mickey Mouse go around as you say. Merely plugging the genny direct into the shore power socket via the standard shore power lead.

 

The dealer that I bought it from suggested it could be plugged directly into the shore power socket but it might have this floating earth issue which can be overcome by modifying the lead.

From what you are saying the Victron will have an additional dedicated genny input somewhere which I should somehow connect the Honda to? Will it still not have the floating earth issue? I guess because I am then bypassing the shore power selector panel I won't have both the red/green polarity lights on.

 

So do I understand correctly that it is normal then to have both the correct and reverse polarity lights illuminated if the Honda is plugged into the shore power socket?

 

Cheers

 

Ken

[DaveC]

I have a Honda EU10i. On advice from Honda I have made up a lead that is Earth Neutral bonded. ie the plug that goes into the generator has a link between Earth and Neutral. I understand this is necessary for correct operation of safety devices. I use a separate lead if I use a mains socket in a marina.

 

HTH

 

Dave

[bottle]

Ken

 

The Victron is very clever, when the inverter is supplying power to the boat (from your batteries) for safety reasons it connects neutral and earth (bond).

 

When the Victon is supply the power from the shoreline, it is not really it is the shoreline supplying the power, it disconnects the neutral earth bond.

 

If you supply the Victron from a generator it will keep the neutral earth bond but the generator must be connected to the correct terminals.

 

All this is to keep you and others safe and ensure all safety devices (fuses, breakers) work.

 

Perhaps Paul G2 was a little harsh but electricity kills and he just wanted to ensure you do it right.

 

Dave C work around is the way most people do it, personally I would not.

 

Your choice.

[nb Innisfree]

When 240v input is present later Victrons (post build 17 I believe) will automatically disconnect E/N bond, this is to prevent shorepower RCD tripping (or genny RCD if one is present)

 

Disconnecting 240v inlet will reinstate bond and allow onboard RCD to function and take over from shorepower RCD as inverter is being supplied from batteries. Without E/N bond there is no return earth leakage to neutral for RCD to detect imbalance and loss of current in event of electric shock.

 

Pre 17 build such as our Multiplus has no auto N/E bond.

 

ETA: We have a Multiplus with one 240v inlet, this is used for shorepower or genny, there may be a later Victron with seperate genny input, I have no knowledge of those if they exist.

Edited May 9, 2014 by nb Innisfree

[Paul G2]

Ken,

 

I'm not saying what you are doing/did is Mickey Mouse, I'm saying that rigging a cord to make those polarity lights work would be.

[KJT]

Very helpful explanations. I had a feeling it was a bit more complicated than just plugging a lead from genny to shore power socket.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that any solution should be done with regards to safety.

As I don't really know what I am doing I will seek advice from my electrical engineer chap who did a lot of the electrical installation. I am sure he will be able to fix a safe and workable solution.

 

Thanks very much guys.

 

Ken

[smileypete]

Ken,

 

I'm not saying what you are doing/did is Mickey Mouse, I'm saying that rigging a cord to make those polarity lights work would be.

 

So what do you recommend instead?

 

Would help if the OP stated exactly what model Victron they had, and whether a separate genny input is available and connected to an inlet.

 

Absent that, I expect a modified N-E bonded lead with an indelible label 'For connection of EU10i to boat shoreline inlet ONLY' would be the way to go. After all it's what Honda themselves recommend, they must know a bit about the subject!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 9, 2014 by smileypete

[blackrose]

Ken,

 

I'm not saying what you are doing/did is Mickey Mouse, I'm saying that rigging a cord to make those polarity lights work would be.

 

Except that it wouldn't just make the polarity lights work, it would also ensure the boats breakers worked too and there's nothing Mickey mouse about that!

 

However, you are correct that modifying the cable is a workaround. You have to put a label on the cable to make sure it's not used for any other purpose than connecting the generator to the boat. Also if you do it you have to be aware that the cable from the generator output to the consumer unit isn't protected. Your AC electrical system must be earth bonded to your hull (which it should be anyway) and you should connect an earth cable from the chassis of the generator to the earth bond too. Honda generators have a chassis stud for this.

 

Edit: the other thing I'd say to the OP is check the cable connections inside the connectors. I once had polarity lights indicate reverse polarity on my boat and i blamed various bits of equipment until i took the trouble to check the cable and found found I'd wired one end up incorrectly!

Edited May 9, 2014 by blackrose

[Paul G2]

 

 

Perhaps Paul G2 was a little harsh but electricity kills and he just wanted to ensure you do it right.

 

 

 

I don't mean to be harsh, really. Sometimes I just come across that way.....

 

So what do you recommend instead?

 

Would help if the OP stated exactly what model Victron they had, and whether a separate genny input is available and connected to an inlet.

 

Absent that, I expect a modified N-E bonded lead with an indelible label 'For connection of EU10i to boat shoreline inlet ONLY' would be the way to go. After all it's what Honda themselves recommend, they must know a bit about the subject!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Well, the OP said he has a Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 and when I Googled that machine the info I came up with said it has a generator input and that is what I was going on. If there are variations of the Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 that don't have a dedicated generator input then you are absolutely right that it would be important to determine which specific model the OP has.

[KJT]

So what do you recommend instead?

 

Would help if the OP stated exactly what model Victron they had, and whether a separate genny input is available and connected to an inlet.

 

Absent that, I expect a modified N-E bonded lead with an indelible label 'For connection of EU10i to boat shoreline inlet ONLY' would be the way to go. After all it's what Honda themselves recommend, they must know a bit about the subject!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Pete

 

Regarding the model. I have checked the instruction manual and it only makes reference to Multiplus 12/3000/120 -16 230v. No specific model number.

 

It seems to have only one AC input and AC 1 and AC 2 outputs. (The AC 2 output is for powering high load items such as immersion heater which will be disconnected when on battery power only). There doesn't seem to be any reference to a dedicated genny input.

 

When 240v input is present later Victrons (post build 17 I believe) will automatically disconnect E/N bond, this is to prevent shorepower RCD tripping (or genny RCD if one is present)

Disconnecting 240v inlet will reinstate bond and allow onboard RCD to function and take over from shorepower RCD as inverter is being supplied from batteries. Without E/N bond there is no return earth leakage to neutral for RCD to detect imbalance and loss of current in event of electric shock.

Pre 17 build such as our Multiplus has no auto N/E bond.

ETA: We have a Multiplus with one 240v inlet, this is used for shorepower or genny, there may be a later Victron with seperate genny input, I have no knowledge of those if they exist.

Nb Innisfree

 

As mentioned above, it only seems to have one AC input. I don't know what build number it might be, and there is no mention of such in the technical specifications. It was purchased new in June 2013.

 

Ken

 

ETA. On further reading of the manual there is a paragraph on the Power Assist 'co supply feature' which says 'high power items such as washing machines, cookers, A/C can all run on 16 amp shore current or even less. In addition, a smaller generator can be connected.'

However the installation diagram only refers to one AC input. No mention is made of a separate, dedicated genny input.

Edited May 9, 2014 by NB Ellisiana

[nb Innisfree]

Pete

 

Regarding the model. I have checked the instruction manual and it only makes reference to Multiplus 12/3000/120 -16 230v. No specific model number.

 

It seems to have only one AC input and AC 1 and AC 2 outputs. (The AC 2 output is for powering high load items such as immersion heater which will be disconnected when on battery power only). There doesn't seem to be any reference to a dedicated genny input.

 

Nb Innisfree

 

As mentioned above, it only seems to have one AC input. I don't know what build number it might be, and there is no mention of such in the technical specifications. It was purchased new in June 2013.

 

Ken

 

ETA. On further reading of the manual there is a paragraph on the Power Assist 'co supply feature' which says 'high power items such as washing machines, cookers, A/C can all run on 16 amp shore current or even less. In addition, a smaller generator can be connected.'

However the installation diagram only refers to one AC input. No mention is made of a separate, dedicated genny input.

Our Multiplus is pre build xxx17xxx (its printed somewhere on the circuit board) bought in 2004, so your model should have auto E/N bonding (unless it's an old model) Therefore your onboard RCD wont work if hooked up to 240v, shorepower will almost certainly have it in which case you're protected but a genny most likely won't. Edited May 9, 2014 by nb Innisfree

[KJT]

Forgive me if I am getting a little confused. (Easy, I know).

 

So, is there a way that I can connect the Honda without endangering any one?

 

Blackrose's suggestion of an additional cable connecting the earth stud on the genny to the earth bond on the boat seems to address the problem. We have a galvanic isolator fitted. Would that effect the situation?

 

Except that it wouldn't just make the polarity lights work, it would also ensure the boats breakers worked too and there's nothing Mickey mouse about that!

However, you are correct that modifying the cable is a workaround. You have to put a label on the cable to make sure it's not used for any other purpose than connecting the generator to the boat. Also if you do it you have to be aware that the cable from the generator output to the consumer unit isn't protected. Your AC electrical system must be earth bonded to your hull (which it should be anyway) and you should connect an earth cable from the chassis of the generator to the earth bond too. Honda generators have a chassis stud for this.

Edit: the other thing I'd say to the OP is check the cable connections inside the connectors. I once had polarity lights indicate reverse polarity on my boat and i blamed various bits of equipment until i took the trouble to check the cable and found found I'd wired one end up incorrectly!

I think the polarity lights on the AC shore power selector panel are working correctly. The only time they have given an unexpected indication was when I connected the Honda, lighting up both correct and reversed polarity lights.

 

Ken

[Paul G2]

Maybe I was wrong about the number of inputs on the Victron. I thought I read specs that said there are two.

 

Regardless, here's a link to a Victron website pairing Victrons with Honda generators and I think I saw your models mentioned so they should have all the information you need to do a proper connection.

[KJT]

Maybe I was wrong about the number of inputs on the Victron. I thought I read specs that said there are two.

 

Regardless, here's a link to a Victron website pairing Victrons with Honda generators and I think I saw your models mentioned so they should have all the information you need to do a proper connection.

Thanks for the link Paul.

 

I had in fact seen that page, which sort of convinced me that the Honda Eu20i was the machine to get. It sort of implies that you can connect the Honda directly to the shore power socket. But it seems it's not that straightforward. I will give Onboard Energy (the suppliers) a ring to see what they suggest.

[smileypete]

I reckon in your circumstances a modified N-E bond lead would be best, but would be interested to hear what Onboard Energy say.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Jamesandlinda]

I have the smaller Honda. What you need is called a 'neutral to earth bond'. Every house has one, you just don't see it, as it's buried in the distribution box. I use a dedicated cable for the Honda & in the plug I connected the neutral to the earth. Hey presto it all works perfectly.

 

Don't put the neutral to earth bond in your distribution box, as it then mucks things up when you're connected to shore power - which has already been bonded before it gets to your boat v

[Richard10002]

Maybe I was wrong about the number of inputs on the Victron. I thought I read specs that said there are two.

 

Regardless, here's a link to a Victron website pairing Victrons with Honda generators and I think I saw your models mentioned so they should have all the information you need to do a proper connection.

No information in the link, (as far as I can see), regarding the actual connection - its more of a sales brochure, rather than a manual.

[BEngo]

I have the smaller Honda. What you need is called a 'neutral to earth bond'. Every house has one, you just don't see it, as it's buried in the distribution box. I use a dedicated cable for the Honda & in the plug I connected the neutral to the earth. Hey presto it all works perfectly.

 

Don't put the neutral to earth bond in your distribution box, as it then mucks things up when you're connected to shore power - which has already been bonded before it gets to your boat v

Red Bit. Sorry, but no they don't.

 

 

There always is should be a Neutral - Earth bond, but where it is depends on how the power distribution company supply the earth, if they supply one at all. Have a look at the Wikipedia article on earthing systems for an explanation of TN-S, TN-C, TNC-S and TT earthing systems.

 

If the earth wire in the cable is connected to the generator earth and the generator earth is connected to an earth spike, and if the bond is at the generator end your generator lead would actually be an example of TN-S system.

 

N

[Nige123]

PME is not to be used on caravan parks & Marinas...........

 

& some generators run 2 wire feeds of 115volt each leg so you get 230volt between phases.....this is the same as site 110v transformers to lower the shock risk (55v per wire) so your controller may be picking up a live on both the L & N wires & this may be the reason for both lights being on....

 

Then I may be wrong? & someone will tell me.....

[KJT]

PME is not to be used on caravan parks & Marinas...........

 

& some generators run 2 wire feeds of 115volt each leg so you get 230volt between phases.....this is the same as site 110v transformers to lower the shock risk (55v per wire) so your controller may be picking up a live on both the L & N wires & this may be the reason for both lights being on....

 

Then I may be wrong? & someone will tell me.....

Thanks for your input.

Not knowing how the genny is wired up internally I don't know if there is two feeds wired up as you describe. It would appear that this is a common situation with gennys. The Victron MultiPlus seemed happy with the input and was charging at around 50 amps, but I was unhappy that both lights (correct/incorrect polarity) were on just in case there was some hidden danger lurking.

Because we are out cruising most days, and have plenty of solar, it hasn't been an issue so will probably wait until we return to base in the Autumn for our electrical genius to look at it and come up with a workable (and safe) solution.

 

Ken

[by'eck]

Thanks for your input.

Not knowing how the genny is wired up internally I don't know if there is two feeds wired up as you describe. It would appear that this is a common situation with gennys. The Victron MultiPlus seemed happy with the input and was charging at around 50 amps, but I was unhappy that both lights (correct/incorrect polarity) were on just in case there was some hidden danger lurking.

Because we are out cruising most days, and have plenty of solar, it hasn't been an issue so will probably wait until we return to base in the Autumn for our electrical genius to look at it and come up with a workable (and safe) solution.

 

Ken

 

I get the same issue with my Kipor although it causes no issues with connected equipment, Combi, washing machine etc. Most boats don't even have an AC polarity sensor anyway so would be ignorant of this issue.

 

Its caused because your genny doesn't have an earth/neutral strap. Consequently there is no live and neutral as such. Many polarity sensors interpret this as an intermittent fault and flash on/off.

 

Either fit an earth/neutral strap to genny, if you are sure it won't damage it, or be aware that any RCD if fitted, will not offer full protection.

[KJT]

 

I get the same issue with my Kipor although it causes no issues with connected equipment, Combi, washing machine etc. Most boats don't even have an AC polarity sensor anyway so would be ignorant of this issue.

 

Its caused because your genny doesn't have an earth/neutral strap. Consequently there is no live and neutral as such. Many polarity sensors interpret this as an intermittent fault and flash on/off.

 

Either fit an earth/neutral strap to genny, if you are sure it won't damage it, or be aware that any RCD if fitted, will not offer full protection.

Thanks Richard

 

So if I just use the genny for battery charging only and don't use any 240v equipment on board whilst the genny is connected and running I should be alright? Or is that an over simplification?

If I wish to run any high current equipment such as the washing machine I would use the built in 3.5kva diesel genny anyway. It's just that with the solar panels keeping the batteries quite well up I find that when I run the diesel genny for battery charging it will start charging at about 100 amps then it quickly goes into absorption and then float mode so I end up running a large genny at maybe 20 amps or even less. It doesn't like running with a light load and starts to soot up. So a smaller genny such as the Honda, which runs on LPG, seems a better idea than running the large one for the little charging I need to do.

 

Cheers

 

Ken

[nicknorman]

Ken

 

The Victron is very clever, when the inverter is supplying power to the boat (from your batteries) for safety reasons it connects neutral and earth (bond).

 

When the Victon is supply the power from the shoreline, it is not really it is the shoreline supplying the power, it disconnects the neutral earth bond.

 

If you supply the Victron from a generator it will keep the neutral earth bond but the generator must be connected to the correct terminals.

 

All this is to keep you and others safe and ensure all safety devices (fuses, breakers) work.

 

Perhaps Paul G2 was a little harsh but electricity kills and he just wanted to ensure you do it right.

 

Dave C work around is the way most people do it, personally I would not.

 

Your choice.

I'm a bit confused by the above, are you saying that the device has 3 sets of mains connections - output, input from shore and input from Genny? It seems to only have one set of input connectors. Therefore provided you connect the genny to the input terminal it will "look" the same as if it were shore power. Of course you should never connect the genny to the output, that would blow something up!

 

Anyway, I am not sure I agree that the Victron is clever enough to sense that it is a floating genny input connected to its input and hence decides to operate the NE relay. That would blow up any device that, say, had a centre tapped output such as a TravelPower.

 

If the relay operated in the OPs case the "reverse polarity" light would not be on (since this just detects voltage between N and E).

 

So if it were me, and presuming the genny has a fully floating output, I would make up a dedicated genny to shore connector lead that has the NE bond built in. I don't see how else it could be done.