Dirty fuel?

[junior]

Having had to replace both fuel pumps within a week of each other just before Christmas I've put sorting out my fuel issues to the top of my 'to do' list.

 

It was recommended to me by John Pattle to fit a Conglomerator (might have the wrong word) on the wall in my engine room to fitler out any water before it gets to the engine. Sadly I can't afford to do that at the moment.

 

In TK Max today I bought a pump type of thing that looked like it would get to the bottom of my fuel tank and enable me to see if I had water/crap down there.

 

I have 2 fuel tanks, one each side of the engine underneath the floor. There is a small inspection opening in the corner of each tank about the size of a 5 pence piece, just big enough for me to get the pump tube into.

 

The results were quite interesting as the fuel in both tanks looked completely different. Also, both tanks seem to be full to the brim as when I undid the inspection nuts the fuel was about 1cm from the top in both. I find that very strange as I last bought diesel at Cowroast and have travelled all the way down to Northolt and back up to Denham.

 

I will post some pictures below of the fuel I took out of the tanks. In the glass bowl is the fuel from the tank nearest the lift pump. I didn't take any photos of the fuel taken from the other tank while it was in the bowl, but you can see from the photo of the 2 samples in milk containers that it is completely different in colour.

 

After lots of engine problems over the last few months having 2 new fuel filters seems to have sorted it, however my exhaust smoke is still a lot dirtier than it was when I bought the boat in the autumn.

 

Photos to follow.....

[Naughty Cal]

Neither looks great!

 

Might be worth getting it polished.

[junior]

[Iain_S]

That last one (post 3) looks really horrible! Do my eyes deceive me, or does the middle photo contain mostly water? There seem to be two distinct layers, and fuel is lighter than water, so ...

 

 

Iain

[ditchcrawler]

Did you take this from the very bottom of the tanks?

[junior]

Did you take this from the very bottom of the tanks?

Yes.

[Charlotte Burnett]

Given that it is from the bottom of the tanks, I would suggest that the sediment is pretty normal, if not ideal. Do you have inspection hatches in the tanks? The colour ain't right though, should be pink like Barbie!

 

Are the two tanks balance connected? Would it be feasible to empty both and scrub them clean? I'm opting for the "run really low on diesel" choice before doing something similar with mine. If you don't have a Pela pump, this is the perfect excuse - although I'm running mine dry as my Pela is so filthy!

 

Fitting an agglomerator is pretty simple and can be found for less than this I would think

 

http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Catalogue/ProductDetail/cav-agglommerator-5836b900?productID=73195812-ddef-4249-9d18-bd0586db6a72&catalogueLevelItemID=46e1a889-0e35-4cfb-a5d3-7d2dc18beec1

 

All you will need is to find your existing CAV filter (assuming you have one) and unscrew the "in" then screw this in place, get another short section of flex hose with fittings (fuel rated from a chandler or you will fail BSS) and fit this between the "out" of the agglomerator and the "in" of your CAV filter, which will need moving on a short length. If you are plumbed in copper, it will take 20 minutes longer perhaps. People here will hold your hand through it.

[LEO]

HI,

The sample on the right looks as though it could be contaminated by the 'bug' - I cleaned out a diesel tank last year after using all the diesel I could get out of the tank, the 'crap' I pumped out was amazing.

 

I would get this fuel 'polished' and fit the system recommend by John Pattle and really clean the tanks out beforeoyou add more fuel..

 

How many gallons of fuel are you talking about?

 

I would not buy any more until this is sorted.

 

Might be worth cutting a larger access hole.

 

Best of Luck- am i right in thinking your boat had not been used too much before you purchased it?.

 

L

[junior]

That last one (post 3) looks really horrible! Do my eyes deceive me, or does the middle photo contain mostly water? There seem to be two distinct layers, and fuel is lighter than water, so ...

 

 

Iain

Yes definitely 2 different levels, although I don't know how to work out which is diesel and which is water. Is it possible to have a 90/10 water/diesel split and still have the engine running ok?

Given that it is from the bottom of the tanks, I would suggest that the sediment is pretty normal, if not ideal. Do you have inspection hatches in the tanks? The colour ain't right though, should be pink like Barbie!

 

Are the two tanks balance connected? Would it be feasible to empty both and scrub them clean? I'm opting for the "run really low on diesel" choice before doing something similar with mine. If you don't have a Pela pump, this is the perfect excuse - although I'm running mine dry as my Pela is so filthy!

 

Fitting an agglomerator is pretty simple and can be found for less than this I would think

 

http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Catalogue/ProductDetail/cav-agglommerator-5836b900?productID=73195812-ddef-4249-9d18-bd0586db6a72&catalogueLevelItemID=46e1a889-0e35-4cfb-a5d3-7d2dc18beec1

 

All you will need is to find your existing CAV filter (assuming you have one) and unscrew the "in" then screw this in place, get another short section of flex hose with fittings (fuel rated from a chandler or you will fail BSS) and fit this between the "out" of the agglomerator and the "in" of your CAV filter, which will need moving on a short length. If you are plumbed in copper, it will take 20 minutes longer perhaps. People here will hold your hand through it.

No inspection tanks sadly, just a hole about 1.5cm round in the corner on the top of each tank. They are just big enough to fit a dowelling rod in to check fuel level.

 

At the moment I only have about £100 available to throw at this. Would I be better to fit an aglomerator asap to try and minimise any damage this fuel may do to the engine, or to keep the £100 in my pocket for a couple of months until I've saved enough extra to have my fuel polished and tanks cleaned out? Option 2 would mean continuing to use this fuel until I can afford the polishing.

 

I was always under the impression I had a pipe running between the 2 tanks that would level out, however having dipped both tanks and found the fuel in each tank to be a completely different colour, I'm wondering if there is a shut off vlave between the two. I'm going to try and do some more investigating today.

[Captain Fizz]

There is a lot of water,crap and very possibly bug in those samples.

You do need to get this sorted before you start to bugger up injectors and pumps again.

How much fuel do you have?

What are the tanks made of?

Is there access to the top of the tanks?

Can you post pictures of the tank installation?

[junior]

HI,

 

I would get this fuel 'polished' and fit the system recommend by John Pattle and really clean the tanks out beforeoyou add more fuel..

 

How many gallons of fuel are you talking about?

 

I would not buy any more until this is sorted.

 

Might be worth cutting a larger access hole.

 

Best of Luck- am i right in thinking your boat had not been used too much before you purchased it?.

 

L

As above, I can't afford to have the fuel polished AND fit the new filter system. The filter I could probably afford now, the polishing I will need to save up for a few months whilst still using the fuel in the tanks.

 

I'm not sure of the capacity of the tanks. 2 large tanks under the floor each side of the engine in a traditional engine room.

 

Yes the boat stood for years and years before I bought it and I'd guess the tanks haven't been cleaned since the boat was built in the late 70's. I have however used the boat quite a lot in the last 5 months and had a reasonable turn over of fuel. When it gets to about half empty, I re-fill it.

 

I'm not sure how much, or how practical it would be to fit inspection hatches, but I doubt I could afford it.

There is a lot of water,crap and very possibly bug in those samples.

You do need to get this sorted before you start to bugger up injectors and pumps again.

How much fuel do you have?

What are the tanks made of?

Is there access to the top of the tanks?

Can you post pictures of the tank installation?

Tanks are made of steel. I'll tank measurements today and see if anyone can work out capacity from them. There is access to the whole of the top of the tanks, but no way of getting into them apart from a tiny inspection hole.

 

I'll take some pictures shorty and post them.

[Captain Fizz]

You have pm

[Alan de Enfield]

Howsabout - drain the tanks completely. Get a jet-wash nozzle in the hole and blast the muck around, drain and wet-vac (if you can get the nozzle in) the muck out.

 

Throw the old diesel away

 

Put a little new diesel in, swish around and drain.

 

Buy 2 sets of filters - fit one and run engine, check regularly and replace when the last bit of muck gets pulled thru'

 

Fill up with £80 of new diesel.

 

If you canot get the jet-wash or the Vac thru the inspection hole, get the tank as empty as possible and cut a larger hole (maybe 6" square). You can reseal the tank with a 7" square of metal plate and a rubber gasket. You can bolt the 'plate' down by have a 7" 'cross-piece' loosely bolted onto the plate, jiggle it into the hole and tighten up - sort of like the weed-hatch but in reverse.

 

Cost - virtually zero except for the diesel and filters

[Chop!]

We have cut an inspection hole in the top of our tank and I'll be using it to clean the tank out later this week, I'll also be fitting watertrap/filter, we've been running on 5 gallon containers (undo your feed and return pipes and put them in the container) This could be a way of giving you some breathing space until you can afford a permanent fix. I can post some pics if you'd like.

 

Good luck old bean

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes definitely 2 different levels, although I don't know how to work out which is diesel and which is water. Is it possible to have a 90/10 water/diesel split and still have the engine running ok?

 

I wasnt going to post this as its such a stupid suggestion, but you never know sometimes stupid is good.

 

If you've an air-cooled engine then its stupidity off the scale.

 

The two tanks under the floor couldnt be the cooling (water) tanks for the engine could they - hence the 90% water and 10% crap / something else ?

The colour is old antifreeze and the 'bits' floating about are rust, perished rubber etc etc.

 

The diesel tank is located somewhere else.

 

Go on - hit me - I can take it.

[junior]

We have cut an inspection hole in the top of our tank and I'll be using it to clean the tank out later this week, I'll also be fitting watertrap/filter, we've been running on 5 gallon containers (undo your feed and return pipes and put them in the container) This could be a way of giving you some breathing space until you can afford a permanent fix. I can post some pics if you'd like.

 

Good luck old bean

Pics would be great! I only have to move the boat from Denham back to Northolt today, a journey of about 3hrs. I'll take the risk today but then aim to get to the bottom of this before my move in a few weeks.

 

I've just had a fantastic offer from a forum member so fingers crossed there is an end to this problem in sight.

I wasnt going to post this as its such a stupid suggestion, but you never know sometimes stupid is good.

 

If you've an air-cooled engine then its stupidity off the scale.

 

The two tanks under the floor couldnt be the cooling (water) tanks for the engine could they - hence the 90% water and 10% crap / something else ?

The colour is old antifreeze and the 'bits' floating about are rust, perished rubber etc etc.

 

The diesel tank is located somewhere else.

 

Go on - hit me - I can take it.

 

Hmmmm, I THINK they are both fuel tanks. My cooling comes straight from the canal, through the engine and back out the other side of the hull. As far as I'm aware, no cooling tanks are involved.

[bizzard]

Until the tanks and fuel are cleaned and you want to use the boat I'd be inclined to disconnect from those tanks temporarily and rig up a separate jury tank, easy to do by say modifying a 4 gallon jerry can or 10 gallon drum by boring a couple of holes in them to fit some simple nozzle type fittings and flexible fuel hose. It could be fitted up high to gravity feed like a day tank.

Edited January 19, 2014 by bizzard

[Mike Tee]

How are the twin tanks connected? If its a pipe, is it blocked and have you been running on one tank all the time? Do you fill it into one tank, and if so, is that the one that is clearer (not so polluted)?

[junior]

Until the tanks and fuel are cleaned and you want to use the boat I'd be inclined to disconnect from those tanks temporarily and rig up a separate jury tank, easy to do by say modifying a 4 gallon jerry can or 10 gallon drum by boring a couple of holes in them to fit some simple nozzle type fittings and flexible fuel hose. It could be fitted up high to gravity feed like a day tank.

Only easy to do when you know what you are doing! As it's probably been like this for donkeys years, another 3 hours of cruising to get me home can't hurt. (Ok it could, but a risk I'll have to take).

How are the twin tanks connected? If its a pipe, is it blocked and have you been running on one tank all the time? Do you fill it into one tank, and if so, is that the one that is clearer (not so polluted)?

I always assumed by a pipe under the floor. However I've had a good root around and can't find a pipe. That makes me wonder back to the post about one of them being some kind of water tank as it's on the same side as the sea cock. Aghhhh!!! I think this has gone beyond my level of tinkering.

 

Yes the samples are from different tanks, the dirtiest sample being the tank furthest from the filler opening (only one). A blockage wouldexplain the difference in colour, as would a shut off valve, but I can't find one, or even the pipe linking the two tanks.

[George Kennedy]

 

Also, both tanks seem to be full to the brim as when I undid the inspection nuts the fuel was about 1cm from the top in both. I find that very strange as I last bought diesel at Cowroast and have travelled all the way down to Northolt and back up to Denham.

 

Hi, assuming that these are your diesel tanks and you don't appear to be using much fuel, I would suggest that you try to find out how the water is getting into the tank otherwise following all of the excellent advice above will be in vain. Check the filler cap particularly if it sits in a mini-bund and water lies in the bund. This happened to me and after removing the filler cap I resealed it using marine flex silicone. I then realised that it had been a few months since I had last mopped water from around the filler cap.

[Mike Tee]

Quickish way to find out if the tanks are connected - carefully measure the contents of each tank with a dipstick - syphon off into 5 gal can from the tank with the filler orifice - dipstick into each tank - are they level?

Danger of this is the sudden removal of 5gal from the goodish tank may suck through any blockage and then you end up with two badly polluted tanks.

 

on reflection, second idea is to ignore the first idea and get a man in!!

 

Sorry mate, we are all thinking out loud (or at least in print) and none of us are on site to give a second proper opinion.

[ditchcrawler]

If you took a sample from the bottom of the tank then even 5mm of water could well look a lot in your sample jar. If the nozzle of your pump went in straight and touched the bottom of the tank it could have shown 100% water.

[Liam]

Junior, are you able to post a picture of your engine room setup showing where your fuel pipes run from the tank to the engine/filters? This would help in explaining what to disconnect from the tank to place into the temporary jerry can or small tank with clean diesel.

 

Are you gravity fed with a top tank, or do you have a fuel pump in the system somewhere?

[junior]

Junior, are you able to post a picture of your engine room setup showing where your fuel pipes run from the tank to the engine/filters? This would help in explaining what to disconnect from the tank to place into the temporary jerry can or small tank with clean diesel.

 

Are you gravity fed with a top tank, or do you have a fuel pump in the system somewhere?

I have a electric pump drawing the fuel up out of the fuel tank.

 

I was going to start attempting to take some photos today but have had an offer from a forum member (who does fuel polishing) to come down in a couple of weeks and get to the bottom of what's going on. In light of this, and the fact that getting photos will mean lifting the false floor of then engine room up, removing all my batteries etc etc, I've decided to save myself the trouble.

 

I appreciate all the advice recieved so far and will revisit a thread with an update once I have news.

[Liam]

That's a great offer and obviously you wouldn't want to miss out on it.

 

It would be worth checking the filler cap to make sure it is sealed correctly. The amount of boats I stop to fill where the rubber seal has completely perished and isn't doing that great of a job at all isn't inconsiderate.