Dispute at Pillings

[Athy]

The administrator will only comply with CRTs request to block the marina entrance if he had the funds to do so which I very much doubt he has?.

How much would it cost to drive a BW work boat up to the entrance and sink it?

[MtB]

MtB, hmm. Brings to mind elegance and beautiful lines with death dealing ability. Looking at your picture the first two obviously don't apply, the last, who knows?

 

I don't really understand what you mean but my comment was uncalled for.

 

On a forum I always think one should 'play the ball, not the man'. I.e. attack the argument not the person. I forgot that last night. I apologise.

 

 

MtB

[Rich]

 

I don't really understand what you mean but my comment was uncalled for.

 

On a forum I always think one should 'play the ball, not the man'. I.e. attack the argument not the person. I forgot that last night. I apologise.

 

 

MtB

I was thinking of Motor Torpedo Boat. Apology accepted and reciprocated.

[Graham Davis]

How much would it cost to drive a BW work boat up to the entrance and sink it?

They don't even need to do that.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that a very heavy chain stretched across the entrance and padlocked is legally sufficient to form a barrier.

[George94]

 

I don't really understand what you mean but my comment was uncalled for.

 

On a forum I always think one should 'play the ball, not the man'. I.e. attack the argument not the person. I forgot that last night. I apologise.

 

 

MtB

 

You're forgiven.

 

This forum would be a nicer place if there were a few more apologies.

[MtB]

I was thinking of Motor Torpedo Boat. Apology accepted and reciprocated.

 

Ah I see! Accepted too. I'll buy you a pint if we ever meet, and we can try to think up more and better insults!

 

MtB

 

You're forgiven.

 

This forum would be a nicer place if there were a few more apologies.

 

Phew that's a relief...

 

I don't think I have ever I've attacked you personally as opposed to your arguments, but yes I apologise to you too in case I have!

 

MtB

[john6767]

How much would it cost to drive a BW work boat up to the entrance and sink it?

I would have thought that the hope that blocking the access would only be needed short term that the liquidator could possible satisfy CRT short term by a chain actress the access while negotiations are on going. I don't see that accesss in/out if the marina can be taken for granted though at any time until an agreement is in place.

[Pen n Ink]

Is it just me (again) or if the liquidator DID decide to comply and block off the entrance pretty much immediately would that not leave the poor in-the-middle boat owners stuck and unable to leave even if they wanted to and were licensed to do so?

[RLWP]

Is it just me (again) or if the liquidator DID decide to comply and block off the entrance pretty much immediately would that not leave the poor in-the-middle boat owners stuck and unable to leave even if they wanted to and were licensed to do so?

Yes, you are right. The boaters are being very poorly served by the marina in this situation

 

Richard

[nicknorman]

Is it just me (again) or if the liquidator DID decide to comply and block off the entrance pretty much immediately would that not leave the poor in-the-middle boat owners stuck and unable to leave even if they wanted to and were licensed to do so?

Yes, that is the reason for suggesting leaving sooner rather than later. But on the other hand, if you were the receiver, what is to be gained by spending money commissioning works to block off the marina when CRT have said they are going to do it later?

[john6767]

Is it just me (again) or if the liquidator DID decide to comply and block off the entrance pretty much immediately would that not leave the poor in-the-middle boat owners stuck and unable to leave even if they wanted to and were licensed to do so?

Yes that is the point, there is no agreement in place, not that the agreement will end in April. Consequently the marina had been instructed to close the entry immediately, which you would have expected QMP not to comply with but will the liquidator likewise refuse to comply you would have thought that they would be more likely to comply. So moorers do need to keep a close eye on things now not just in the run up to April, this is a horrible mess.

[haggis]

I get the impression that there are a lot of live aboards at this marina in which case, they are probably happy to stay there, even if there is no access to the canal system.

 

haggis

Edited January 25, 2014 by haggis

[Southern Star]

Yes, that is the reason for suggesting leaving sooner rather than later. But on the other hand, if you were the receiver, what is to be gained by spending money commissioning works to block off the marina when CRT have said they are going to do it later?

Would this not be illegal?

 

I imagine that if you parked a car in a car park and the local Council was in dispute with the owner, they wouldn't simply be able to blockade you in and refuse to allow you to get your car out.

[nicknorman]

Would this not be illegal?

 

I imagine that if you parked a car in a car park and the local Council was in dispute with the owner, they wouldn't simply be able to blockade you in and refuse to allow you to get your car out.

 

No, but if they gave you adequate warning it would be reasonable.

[Mike Tee]

I get the impression that there are a lot of live aboards at this marina in which case, they are probably happy to stay there, even if there is no access to the canal system.

 

haggis

I wonder how happy they will be when one of the following occurs -

 

The local council throw them out as they do not have residential planning permission

The local council grant them residential status, and they then start paying council tax

 

eta - this really is raising the profile of a lot of residents who would be better off staying under the radar as much as possible

Edited January 25, 2014 by Mike Tee

[Ally]

I have been told that should C&RT block the marina, they will allow boats out who are going to new moorings elsewhere, but none in again.

[Paul G2]

Yes that is the point, there is no agreement in place, not that the agreement will end in April. Consequently the marina had been instructed to close the entry immediately, which you would have expected QMP not to comply with but will the liquidator likewise refuse to comply you would have thought that they would be more likely to comply. So moorers do need to keep a close eye on things now not just in the run up to April, this is a horrible mess.

 

Liquidators do not have to comply with creditor's orders. It is the liquidators who tell the creditors what to do, not the other way around.

[b0atman]

I think that a wise boater would leave this Marina ASAP when all is resolved by whatever then if they wish to go back then I think moorings will be more in line with other Marinas on the Soar i.e cheaper and hopefully with a more pleasant management in place.

Regards council tax how have the lease holders avoided it Linconshire East Lindsey District charges 50% of band A for non residential caravans on sites with a yearly contract ?

[rrt2]

Edited to remove

Edited January 25, 2014 by barry adams

[Grace and Favour]

Edited to remove

But they haven't got a paid for mooring - - they paid for a car parking space*- they'll be able to move their cars in and out of the marina unfettered by CRT

 

 

 

(*and heaven forbid that anyone should think that there's anything strange about this way of doing business)

[Pen n Ink]

 

Liquidators do not have to comply with creditor's orders. It is the liquidators who tell the creditors what to do, not the other way around.

 

This is the important point here. Liquidators sole responsibility is to maximise the return ( or chances of a return) to the creditors by doing whatever they can. In this case I would suggest that the liquidators might well see getting or keeping CRT on side as a simple way of maximising returns, therefore I would have thought the likelihood of them blocking the access is very high indeed.

[MtB]

But they haven't got a paid for mooring - - they paid for a car parking space*- they'll be able to move their cars in and out of the marina unfettered by CRT

 

 

Let's hope they don't try that, unless they drive Beetles which were reputed to float. Just in and out of their parking spaces

 

MtB

[b0atman]

The local council have a problem with throwing residential boaters out as all you say is well if I cannot live on my boat what accommodation do you have for me as I am homeless.

[Neil2]

 

Maybe I have misunderstood the situation but I thought it was Quorn Marinas that has gone into liquidation, the companies "either side of them" (ie the Marina Owner and Pillings Lock Marina) are still in existence.

 

If the moorers 'buy-up' Quorn Marinas they will only be a 'land management company' they will not be a 'Marina Operator' which will still be PLM (AKA Paul Lillie)

 

The 'new company will pay a fee to the Marina Owner (AKA Paul Lilie) to allow them to rent out the marina to PLM ( AKA Paul Lillie)

 

The 'new' company will have no say in the running of the marina and will not collect mooring fees. They will collect an 'fee' from P Lillie (as he is 'renting' the marina from them) and they will be responsible for paying C&RT the NAA fee.

 

If I've got it all wrong I'll delete it - but - this is my undserstanding of the 'tangled web' of companies involved.

 

Edit :

Companies House listing showing 'Business Activities'

 

1) Quorn Marina Properties = Management of real estate on a fee or contract basis

2) Quorn Marina Holdings = Other letting and operating of own or leased real estate

3) Pilings Lock Marina = Other amusement and recreation activities

 

Just to be clear, as I understand it, a NAA can only be made with the marina owner or head leaseholder, not a management company. So if a "buy out" were to be considered, it has to be to obtain a freehold or leasehold interest in the marina.

 

From what I can find out, it appears that the company that owns the freehold, Quorn Marina Properties Ltd has gone into Creditors Voluntary Liquidation (CVL).

 

I suspect the sole director of that company was Mr Lillie.

 

In a case like this, CVL is probably a tactic in the hope that the appointed insolvency practitioner will negotiate a new deal between the main creditor, CRT and a "new" company - which may or may not involve Mr Lillie in some way.

 

But as has been suggested, there is nothing to stop an individual or group of individuals approaching the insolvency practitioner with a view to negotiating their own deal to buy the freehold and come to some arrangement with CRT.

 

Doubtless if Mr Lillie thought there was any chance of this happening, he would not have gone down this route.

 

For the sake of argument, if/when QMP is wound up, any company that takes over can presumably deal with whoever they like in terms of who runs the marina etc.

 

I can't find any reference though to this company having become insolvent, though if it is very recent it won't appear in notices yet.

 

 

As for the blockade, surely there will be a facility for stop planks as with most (all?) marinas. Begs the question where does the water supply for the marina come from?

[Paul G2]

 

Maybe I have misunderstood the situation but I thought it was Quorn Marinas that has gone into liquidation, the companies "either side of them" (ie the Marina Owner and Pillings Lock Marina) are still in existence.

 

If the moorers 'buy-up' Quorn Marinas they will only be a 'land management company' they will not be a 'Marina Operator' which will still be PLM (AKA Paul Lillie)

 

The 'new company will pay a fee to the Marina Owner (AKA Paul Lilie) to allow them to rent out the marina to PLM ( AKA Paul Lillie)

 

The 'new' company will have no say in the running of the marina and will not collect mooring fees. They will collect an 'fee' from P Lillie (as he is 'renting' the marina from them) and they will be responsible for paying C&RT the NAA fee.

 

If I've got it all wrong I'll delete it - but - this is my undserstanding of the 'tangled web' of companies involved.

 

Edit :

Companies House listing showing 'Business Activities'

 

1) Quorn Marina Properties = Management of real estate on a fee or contract basis

2) Quorn Marina Holdings = Other letting and operating of own or leased real estate

3) Pilings Lock Marina = Other amusement and recreation activities

 

Hello Allan,

 

You raise some good issues. Wouldn't it be nice if a solicitor who actually knew what they were talking about dropped in and commented? For now, there are a couple of factors that I think play into the points you have raised.

 

Bear in mind this is a hostile takeover. No one said it would be easy or nice.

 

Someone earlier said the procedure at this point would be to call a meeting of creditors to appoint a liquidator. A "sympathetic" liquidator would make my proposed takeover a cake walk. If the moorers want to do this, they need to contact CRT ASAP/now/yesterday.

 

An important part of this process is the ability to have Paul Lillie declared ineligible to hold a directorship. Paul Lillie is history, no matter what. He either leaves voluntarily or via sanctions and he is not a threat to anyone. I would posit that, by virtue of the tangled web these three companies have woven that they are both creditors and debtors of QPM, and therefor subject to jurisdiction of the liquidator. Regardless, if the liquidator decides that the contract with PLM threatens the viability of QPM, the liquidator can simply declare that contract void. Adios Sr. P.Lillie.

 

The measures that I am suggesting may be a tad out of the ordinary for a liquidation, it seems the phoenix scam is much more common. But you probably don't have that many liquidations that affect so many people in such a personal way..

 

It's important to keep in mind that bankruptcy courts have a tremendous amount of power, and can do just about anything they please with existing contracts and existing debt. That is why the occupants of PLM need to get their act together real darn quick and try their best to get a sympathetic liquidator.

 

Meanwhile, think arbitrage! Use their structure and their assets against them. John Lillie was in on this from the beginning, I'm sure he would help. But I'll bet you a pence to a pound that the QPH-QPM-PLM structure was never designed to withstand a hostile environment.

 

Should you happen to agree with me, please don't delete your comments. They are valid points to raise. I claim to have ideas, not to know everything. My ideas certainly need to be vetted way beyond my ability to do so.